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I'm pretty tired of skeptics who are unable to think outside the box.

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posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 08:36 PM
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As I sit here and debate whether or not I should even write this thread, (a baby that could wake at any moment, or the sheer frustration of stupidity) I obviously decide to go ahead, to much chagrin. I really do not have the patience for so called experts who go on television and arrogantly describe how there is now way that aliens could travel throughout space simply because the fuel required to do say would be way more than the craft could carry!

WTF?

At what point did your brain tell you that we are the epitome of advancement?

When did you come to terms with the fact that there is now way anyone could possibly have a better understanding of physics then us? Of possibly a whole set of physics all-together? (Quantum Physics tells us this this possible).

Is it because we are insanely arrogant or insanely stupid.

I know I am preaching to the choir but I needed to vent.

Carry on



+16 more 
posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 08:46 PM
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While I wont defend somebody that is ignorant enough to go on tv and say there is no chance aliens could traverse the vastness of space, I will defend skeptics.

You can get as mad at them as you want, but it is not the skeptics that have made this subject so laughable that it can't be taken seriously by the people that need to in order for the truth to come out.

I wouldn't cry and whine about the very small minority called skeptics. If I were you I would focus more on the vocal majority and police them better.



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 08:52 PM
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I agree with what you are saying, but I would rather you call those people pseudoskeptics, which are people who wont change their mind regardless. I have skeptical views on some things, but not other stuff.

Also, you should bring those conspiracy theorists who will not listen to rationality....those kind of people need to start thinking inside the box a little more. Its the same ignorance, just a different point of view



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 08:54 PM
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And I'm tired of people who believe anything someone puts inside their "box"
2nd line



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 09:04 PM
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reply to post by kleverone
 


Could you imagine a world without skeptics? It'd be hellish, people would be running around believing in all sorts of wild things. Grown men would be leaving offerings to the Easter Bunny believing it real, sailors would still be afraid to fall off the flat Earth, superstition and ignorance would rule the day.

Most good skeptics are willing to believe if the item in question is proven or shown to be theoretically within the realm of possibility (under the rules of the Universe as we understand them so far). Some of them, like you said, are arrogant and seem pompous, these I like to call Psuedo-Skeptics, the so-called professional debunkers (like Joe Nickell) who scoff at believers and will explain away anything and everything with a wave of their hand or will resort to tearing down the credibility of the witnesses no matter how expert the witness (I've seen military UFO witnesses on CNN get called liars
)

But in truth we need skeptics, if everyone agreed on everything, especially without proof, the world would be a much weirder place...



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 09:27 PM
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There is a difference between skeptic and objective thinker.

Also, this is an opinion piece.



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 09:28 PM
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Originally posted by zaiger
And I'm tired of people who believe anything someone puts inside their "box"
2nd line


Not really sure what you mean here



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 09:33 PM
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Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by kleverone
 



But in truth we need skeptics, if everyone agreed on everything, especially without proof, the world would be a much weirder place...


I agree, I welcome any objective thinker. Like I said I pretty tired of skeptics who think outside the box.



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 09:42 PM
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Originally posted by kleverone
I'm pretty tired of skeptics who are unable to think outside the box.


Let's be fair, Kleverone qualified his statement.

Oz, you think outside the box on the daily my friend. He wasn't talking to actual skeptics


I hear you Kleverone. Star from me! And venting echoed!


Edited to add:
Let's hear it for Nablator and Arbitrageur ATS Crew! These two skeptics (no matter your personal experiences) are willing to think outside of the box, and to actually investigate
While I'm at it, I should also mention Phage, who is actively investigating a thread I'm currently participating in


These folks set a great example, and I've always found them to be courteous and polite, even during a heated debate. Their ability to think outside the box makes them better at representing their side of the aisle in my view. And I'm all for that!

-WFA

[edit on 15-9-2009 by WitnessFromAfar]



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 09:44 PM
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I think for the most part, skeptics that are into the UFO/Aliens subject would love nothing more than to be proven wrong


But, just as with the believer crowd, the skeptics do have a small number of folks that can't/wouldn't admit they are wrong in the face of any evidence.



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 09:45 PM
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reply to post by kleverone
 


It's the sceptics who have removed the crap from the pile so to speak. Believers would be in such a state without critical thinkers.

Sceptics tend to say they want physical evidence before we can say aliens are visiting. I will defend anyone who says that, but doesn't discount the possibility. It's almost common knowledge in science that alien life will exist anyway, it's just the process of them getting here, which shouldn't be discounted, but kept within reason. In other words, it's best not to scream "aliens!!" at every UFO sighting video.

So if somebody will claim aliens don't exist at all, I would not defend them, and I would call them utterly ignorant of a few cosmological facts. But I wouldn't call somebody ignorant who wants to see evidence before accepting visitation as a fact. In fact, it's the believers who behave ignorantly towards sceptics, should they accuse them of "not thinking out of the box".

What makes believers so sure that many sceptics don't consider the possibility, and are fascinated by the possibility, and would love it to happen! It's logical, scientific and truthful to oneself to want to see evidence beforehand!

For those believers to be taken seriously, they have to respect a sceptics point of view, and see it logically from their perspective, and their way of thinking. And that is coming from somebody who has seen UFOs that absolutely cannot be explained, and were completely unexplainable. It's certainly possible to be a believer in a phenomenon, but be a sceptic of alien visitation. That doesn't mean I'm saying it's improbable at all, I'd say the odds are around 50-50, and maybe they are too advanced to take much notice of us mere humans!


[edit on 15-9-2009 by john124]



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 09:46 PM
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Well I disagree I think skeptics are good for discussion, aren't we here to look for the truth on this site. There are so many fakers and bull spit merchants out there we need clinical thinkers to dissect each story and weed out the hoaxes and skeptic are great at doing this because they don't get carried away with wanting to believe.



posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 09:50 PM
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reply to post by kleverone
 


Good to see you on these boards my friend.
I was actually thinking and getting agitated about this VERY same thing. In fact I thought you (the OP) were someone else I was talking to about this earlier. I too have seen the recent surge in skepticism here on ATS and elsewhere where it seems that people are becoming 'scared' to even begin to theorize on things and make logical assumptions. Pretty much it seems like those in ufology are simply "waiting for a case to be debunked" without doing the research themselves.

Furthermore I think that there is an internal 'civil war' between all of us in ufology, even those of us who are more neutral in our approach. It seems we have one side that wants to push whatever comes to mind and "looks good" and state it as fact. I could name COUNTLESS individuals but I won't
They know who they are, as do many here on ATS (btw I am not talking about people on ATS). It seems that some people who are erroneously considered "UFO Pros" by the public are so anxious to either propagate their own fantasy or make a buck off of the WAY to obviously gullible masses of 'beleivers', well really pseudobelievers, that will willingly post, copy, spam, and buy into ANYTHING these damn charalatins say or do.

BUT THEN........We have the pseudoskeptics who are either too scared to jump outside of their "professional comfort level" or risk thinking outside of whatever limited outlook they have on reality, likely a natural defense mechanism due to the severe influx of pseudobelievers and their recent EXTREME propagation in this field. And of course those psuedobelievers are also actively pushing more and more crap to counter the "insurgence" by the pseudoskeptics(which I do fear entails many more people and ufologist these days, as does the other end). It now seems like, in my very humble opinion, that ufology is turning into a damn crap throwing contest and circular arguments over disproving each other when the main doctrine of ufology should be to find out what the hell these UFOs are, and if the "alien theory" (yes, that is the most accepted and likely theory like it or not) is actually true, rather than worrying about debunking some crap like the GFL, Mexican UFOs, etc, etc...

Way too many people are now taking the defensive calling out others and blaming them, well that achieves NOTHING. So if you are happy to just sit back and type, write, or speak some crap and do NOTHING to help the very cause you claim to care about then it is prolly' best you do or say nothing at all, as it will only inflame the already bad situation. That last sentence applies to BOTH sides, not just one. Why must we continue to sit here and bicker back and forth between "who is right and who is wrong", when in reality neither side knows or can prove ANYTHING! Is it too hard and too much to ask that we all look objectively, unbiased, and scientifically at the evidence and come to the conclusions that "well we do not know what it was but it could be so and so...WITHOUT the the circular arguments on the theories that each person comes to? Why do we continue to argue about theories built upon theories? Why are many becoming too scared to propose theories that may seem "too far out there and 'out of the box', but yet obviously point to the LOGICAL conclusion based on probability?

It is my suggestion that we all CUT THE CRAP and UNIFY to the common purpose that I fear has been forgotten about in all the personal battles, which are almost always derived from egos. How can we expect to deal with a phenomena such as UFOs and the potential implications if the very people researching it fail to agree amongst themselves and stop arguing over nothing? Some people don't want the "UFO Mystery" revealed, some are too caught up in their own ego and personal battles that they really don't care anymore (either consciously or not). I fear that if this does not end soon then ufology will be a LONG forgotten field within the next 20 years at most and go out without so much as a mention in history.

One final note that I feel is important, I have noticed that it seems like most ufologist seem so dissociated from the mainstream public it really is funny. WHY? How do we expect to be taken seriously if we can not connect with the mass public? I mean just because you believe something considered 'fringe' does not mean you can not socialize, converse, and utilize the general public. It seems that ufologist and those who believe have began such a deeper decent into the corner of reality that it would be hard for anyone that has a normal life to take what they (WE) say seriously. I mean just because you believe in UFOs and aliens does that mean you can not be like the rest of the population? My point is this (and I already know some will not understand what I am trying to say here...) : we need to stop alienating ourselves (no pun intended) from the rest of the population. We have done it enough already, both by our own hands and basics social processes. It is time to GET OUT to the public, make the best cases known, get people EDUCATED, do not push things you can not prove, simply make them known to many.
I promise it will work, it has all throughout the human history...

It is easy really...


  • UNITE together for the common purpose WE ALL are trying to achieve--The truth, no matter what it be.
  • Get the legitimate and science backed information out to the public.
  • Use popular culture for our advantage, whatever it takes to get the legit UFO phenomena recognized by the masses.


    I would bet anything that if those three things are followed ufology would have a much more serious and orderly place in the world right now.


    Also, this post is not directed at anyone person, it is to ALL, as a WHOLE, which we ARE. I feel that a major 'face-lift' is needed in ufology and soon. I know this post will probably go unheeded but at least I tried.


    I know we can do it guys, we just need to COME TOGETHER..


    [edit on 9/16/2009 by jkrog08]



  • posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 09:53 PM
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    I agree, I welcome any objective thinker. Like I said I pretty tired of skeptics who ?(are unable)? think outside the box.



    Arrogance, can be the epitome of vanity, and is a common trait amongst, so called, (higher educated) people.

    Arrogance is blinding.
    I'm nobody important.
    I've told "important" people things, just to have those ideas summarily dismissed.
    In retrospect, they realize that they shouldn't have been so obtuse, but then it's too late.
    There arrogance blinded them to the fact I may have known something they did not.


    This is the dilemma all of us face.

    I'm not speaking of anyone or anything in particular with the following comments.

    If I told you "I" had the answers you were looking for, you may very well be so wrapped up in your own micro reality, that you might just dismiss me as an idiot.
    Especially if my opinion differs drastically from your own, or requires you to make a leap of faith.

    If my logic is flawed in your eyes, you may fail to see the relevance of such a preposterous notion.
    The point of it may very well be not exactly what you think it is.
    I was merely putting you in the right state of mind to be able to see the answer for yourself.
    No one really teaches anyone anything.
    You observe and then teach yourself based on what you observed.
    Therein, is the flaw.
    Some people refuse to teach themselves anything, because they think they know it all.
    In actuality all of us know very little of the (big picture).



    [edit on 9/15/2009 by reticledc]

    [edit on 9/15/2009 by reticledc]



    posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 10:04 PM
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    reply to post by reticledc
     


    I think you are misunderstanding scepticism. Remember it's the believers who are claiming so much more without the physical evidence to back up their claims. You can't blame somebody for wanting to see proof before accepting it as fact, it's just how the human mind works best.

    You may mistake sceptics ruling out the possibility of alien visitation, with needing to see the evidence first. Stop trying to convince people without proof, just tell them once, and if they don't want to know, then discuss it with somebody else. Accept they need physical evidence, and it doesn't matter what they don't know, because one day they "will" know!



    posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 10:10 PM
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    Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts
    But, just as with the believer crowd, the skeptics do have a small number of folks that can't/wouldn't admit they are wrong in the face of any evidence.


    I disagree... it's the FEW believers and skeptics that are willing to change their mind that are in the very small minority... there is no shortage of those who believe without reason and there is no shortage of scoffing debunkers.

    Above someone posted a list of good skeptic names.. missed ArMap
    but the list didn't even make ten people... yet how many members are on here?

    Such a small number is all that can be mustered?
    Same goes on my side of the fence... could I find 20 names? Hmmmm not sure


    And you always state that this or that charlatan is doing a disservice to REAL UFO investigators...

    Well who would those real investigators be? I don't see very many that are not knee deep in drama at the moment that has little to do with UFO investigation



    posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 10:18 PM
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    Seems this is a good summary of the whole UFOlogy thing...

    Shows how serious researchers are





    Post will self destruct in 9... 8... 7...



    posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 10:23 PM
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    Originally posted by IgnoreTheFacts
    While I wont defend somebody that is ignorant enough to go on tv and say there is no chance aliens could traverse the vastness of space, I will defend skeptics.

    You can get as mad at them as you want, but it is not the skeptics that have made this subject so laughable that it can't be taken seriously by the people that need to in order for the truth to come out.

    I wouldn't cry and whine about the very small minority called skeptics. If I were you I would focus more on the vocal majority and police them better.


    I think that is a real issue in the field of UFOlogy. We need more serious research and less blind following.


    Originally posted by jkrog08

    It is easy really...


  • UNITE together for the common purpose WE ALL are trying to achieve--The truth, no matter what it be.
  • Get the legitimate and science backed information out to the public.
  • Use popular culture for our advantage, whatever it takes to get the legit UFO phenomena recognized by the masses.

    I would bet anything that if those three things are followed ufology would have a much more serious and orderly place in the world right now.


  • Well said jkrog, I give you applause for that (without the points, but I'd give you those too if I could!)

    I would like to repost a comment I made in another thread (Rendlesham Forest incident) about the truth not having any side:

    I examined some evidence from a balanced point of view looking at both the skeptics' observations and also the believers' observations, and this was the reply I got:


    Originally posted by Arbitrageur

    Originally posted by (ID Edited out)
    Pick your side.

    But please: It isn't neccessary to come here and debate this with yourself, is it?


    You know that comment "pick your side" really makes me wonder.

    The objective for some of us is the truth, there is no "side" to that. Some skeptics want to debunk everything and some believers want to believe everything.

    And the whole purpose of these UFO forums (I think) is to present and discuss the evidence from various points of view and find the truth.


    I think this belief that everyone has to "pick a side" and then be labeled as a "skeptic" or a "believer" is part of what's wrong with UFOlogy today. I feel as you do that we should all be here seeking the truth and sharing our insights with each other to reach that objective. I think anyone who feels UFOlogy is some sort of "battle between skeptics and believers" has the wrong perspective.

    So this is repeating what you said, but it's WORTH REPEATING!

    Let's "UNITE together for the common purpose WE ALL are trying to achieve--The truth, no matter what it be." as you said, I couldn't agree more. Well said and star for your post!

    [edit on 15-9-2009 by Arbitrageur]



    posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 10:28 PM
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    I don't think skeptics (true skeptics) don't think outside the box, or their confort zone, honestly.

    The problem goes both ways, and untill "believers" and "skeptics" start to go in a common direction called "truth", we can't go very further into anything, like jkrog has so well explained.

    From my personal experience, and some people here already know I'm a pilot, the problem isn't with skeptics thinking outside the box, is with believers ACCEPTING theories outside the box, FROM the side of skeptics.

    I choose to shut up and not even reply in some threads that I know that the lights are planes, just because I KNOW people will reply "Aahahha...sure, and what is next? A after ballon and a fart from Venus?! MISINFO!"...

    Sometimes are things pretty mundane, sometimes are things pretty amazing, but human or natural or anything else that sometimes surprises you. Like internos, jkrog, Arbitrageur, WFA, Phage, ArMaP and many others (note that in this group there are believers and skeptics) so many times and so NICELY present to "believers" amazing stuff like "hey guys, do you know that the atmosphere produces amazing light shows even more spectacular than auroras?", and they go to the work to give pictures and quote sources and all of that...
    ...so someone comes here and say "ah! Misinfo agent!".

    Who isn't thinking outside the box? I'm a believer, since I had a very powerfull experience, but I'm a skeptic in nature.

    1- I know many people try to make profit and fame from this phenomena (especially the ones who say that they don't).
    2- It's better to eliminate every mundane and natural reasons before coming to conclusions, than accepting it's alien or "unknown" and be disappoited some hours, days or years later.

    There is so much garbage in UFOlogy, that is healthy to everyone for the sake of your mind to be a skeptic.

    I know a lot of them don't even put arguments "outside the box" on the tabble, or even try to go that way, because people won't accept it... Why bother?

    The ones that are debated, are strong cases, like when it is something you KNOW it isn't alien, and STILL there are people who claim its misinfo and all that crap..

    People accept that because of the nature of ufology, believers already accepted the "outside the box" (I'm using this expression so much because you've used it very well in the OP). Well, they don't... They have accepted and fight for trully amazing MADE UP/IMAGINATION/FANTASY WEBSITES/Etc stuff, but they aren't thinking outside the box, at all.

    Maybe it is time to believers think outside the box too...

    2 cents.

    zorgon, this time I totally agree with you. There are few true skeptics, and few true believers.



    posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 10:34 PM
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    Originally posted by kleverone
    As I sit here and debate whether or not I should even write this thread, (a baby that could wake at any moment, or the sheer frustration of stupidity) I obviously decide to go ahead, to much chagrin. I really do not have the patience for so called experts who go on television and arrogantly describe how there is now way that aliens could travel throughout space simply because the fuel required to do say would be way more than the craft could carry!


    Oh yeah... it's like they think all the Type II and Type III civilizations out there would be using gasoline. My favorite part is how they state "distances are too great between stars to travel, that you would need generation after generation to blah blah blah." They forget mainstream physics has gone beyond this limited outlook for decades now and is looking into hyperspace travel like wormholes. It's like they have an old 1950s science textbook and use that as their Debunker's Bible.



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