While I wont defend somebody that is ignorant enough to go on tv and say there is no chance aliens could traverse the vastness of space, I will defend
skeptics.
You can get as mad at them as you want, but it is not the skeptics that have made this subject so laughable that it can't be taken seriously by the
people that need to in order for the truth to come out.
I wouldn't cry and whine about the very small minority called skeptics. If I were you I would focus more on the vocal majority and police them
better.
I'm pretty tired of skeptics who are unable to think outside the box., page 1
privacy
reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 09:04 PM by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by kleverone
Could you imagine a world without skeptics? It'd be hellish, people would be running around believing in all sorts of wild things. Grown men would be leaving offerings to the Easter Bunny believing it real, sailors would still be afraid to fall off the flat Earth, superstition and ignorance would rule the day.
Most good skeptics are willing to believe if the item in question is proven or shown to be theoretically within the realm of possibility (under the rules of the Universe as we understand them so far). Some of them, like you said, are arrogant and seem pompous, these I like to call Psuedo-Skeptics, the so-called professional debunkers (like Joe Nickell) who scoff at believers and will explain away anything and everything with a wave of their hand or will resort to tearing down the credibility of the witnesses no matter how expert the witness (I've seen military UFO witnesses on CNN get called liars
)
But in truth we need skeptics, if everyone agreed on everything, especially without proof, the world would be a much weirder place...
Could you imagine a world without skeptics? It'd be hellish, people would be running around believing in all sorts of wild things. Grown men would be leaving offerings to the Easter Bunny believing it real, sailors would still be afraid to fall off the flat Earth, superstition and ignorance would rule the day.
Most good skeptics are willing to believe if the item in question is proven or shown to be theoretically within the realm of possibility (under the rules of the Universe as we understand them so far). Some of them, like you said, are arrogant and seem pompous, these I like to call Psuedo-Skeptics, the so-called professional debunkers (like Joe Nickell) who scoff at believers and will explain away anything and everything with a wave of their hand or will resort to tearing down the credibility of the witnesses no matter how expert the witness (I've seen military UFO witnesses on CNN get called liars
) But in truth we need skeptics, if everyone agreed on everything, especially without proof, the world would be a much weirder place...
reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 09:33 PM by kleverone
Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by kleverone
But in truth we need skeptics, if everyone agreed on everything, especially without proof, the world would be a much weirder place...
I agree, I welcome any objective thinker. Like I said I pretty tired of skeptics who think outside the box.
reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 09:45 PM by john124
reply to post by kleverone
It's the sceptics who have removed the crap from the pile so to speak. Believers would be in such a state without critical thinkers.
Sceptics tend to say they want physical evidence before we can say aliens are visiting. I will defend anyone who says that, but doesn't discount the possibility. It's almost common knowledge in science that alien life will exist anyway, it's just the process of them getting here, which shouldn't be discounted, but kept within reason. In other words, it's best not to scream "aliens!!" at every UFO sighting video.
So if somebody will claim aliens don't exist at all, I would not defend them, and I would call them utterly ignorant of a few cosmological facts. But I wouldn't call somebody ignorant who wants to see evidence before accepting visitation as a fact. In fact, it's the believers who behave ignorantly towards sceptics, should they accuse them of "not thinking out of the box".
What makes believers so sure that many sceptics don't consider the possibility, and are fascinated by the possibility, and would love it to happen! It's logical, scientific and truthful to oneself to want to see evidence beforehand!
For those believers to be taken seriously, they have to respect a sceptics point of view, and see it logically from their perspective, and their way of thinking. And that is coming from somebody who has seen UFOs that absolutely cannot be explained, and were completely unexplainable. It's certainly possible to be a believer in a phenomenon, but be a sceptic of alien visitation. That doesn't mean I'm saying it's improbable at all, I'd say the odds are around 50-50, and maybe they are too advanced to take much notice of us mere humans!
[edit on 15-9-2009 by john124]
It's the sceptics who have removed the crap from the pile so to speak. Believers would be in such a state without critical thinkers.
Sceptics tend to say they want physical evidence before we can say aliens are visiting. I will defend anyone who says that, but doesn't discount the possibility. It's almost common knowledge in science that alien life will exist anyway, it's just the process of them getting here, which shouldn't be discounted, but kept within reason. In other words, it's best not to scream "aliens!!" at every UFO sighting video.
So if somebody will claim aliens don't exist at all, I would not defend them, and I would call them utterly ignorant of a few cosmological facts. But I wouldn't call somebody ignorant who wants to see evidence before accepting visitation as a fact. In fact, it's the believers who behave ignorantly towards sceptics, should they accuse them of "not thinking out of the box".
What makes believers so sure that many sceptics don't consider the possibility, and are fascinated by the possibility, and would love it to happen! It's logical, scientific and truthful to oneself to want to see evidence beforehand!
For those believers to be taken seriously, they have to respect a sceptics point of view, and see it logically from their perspective, and their way of thinking. And that is coming from somebody who has seen UFOs that absolutely cannot be explained, and were completely unexplainable. It's certainly possible to be a believer in a phenomenon, but be a sceptic of alien visitation. That doesn't mean I'm saying it's improbable at all, I'd say the odds are around 50-50, and maybe they are too advanced to take much notice of us mere humans!
[edit on 15-9-2009 by john124]
reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 09:50 PM by jkrog08
reply to post by kleverone
Good to see you on these boards my friend.
I was actually thinking and getting agitated about this VERY same thing. In fact I thought you (the OP)
were someone else I was talking to about this earlier. I too have seen the recent surge in skepticism here on ATS and elsewhere where it seems that
people are becoming 'scared' to even begin to theorize on things and make logical assumptions. Pretty much it seems like those in ufology are simply
"waiting for a case to be debunked" without doing the research themselves.
Furthermore I think that there is an internal 'civil war' between all of us in ufology, even those of us who are more neutral in our approach. It seems we have one side that wants to push whatever comes to mind and "looks good" and state it as fact. I could name COUNTLESS individuals but I won't They know who they are, as do many here on ATS (btw I am not talking about people on ATS). It seems that some people who are erroneously
considered "UFO Pros" by the public are so anxious to either propagate their own fantasy or make a buck off of the WAY to obviously gullible masses
of 'beleivers', well really pseudobelievers, that will willingly post, copy, spam, and buy into ANYTHING these damn charalatins say or do.
BUT THEN........We have the pseudoskeptics who are either too scared to jump outside of their "professional comfort level" or risk thinking outside of whatever limited outlook they have on reality, likely a natural defense mechanism due to the severe influx of pseudobelievers and their recent EXTREME propagation in this field. And of course those psuedobelievers are also actively pushing more and more crap to counter the "insurgence" by the pseudoskeptics(which I do fear entails many more people and ufologist these days, as does the other end). It now seems like, in my very humble opinion, that ufology is turning into a damn crap throwing contest and circular arguments over disproving each other when the main doctrine of ufology should be to find out what the hell these UFOs are, and if the "alien theory" (yes, that is the most accepted and likely theory like it or not) is actually true, rather than worrying about debunking some crap like the GFL, Mexican UFOs, etc, etc...
Way too many people are now taking the defensive calling out others and blaming them, well that achieves NOTHING. So if you are happy to just sit back and type, write, or speak some crap and do NOTHING to help the very cause you claim to care about then it is prolly' best you do or say nothing at all, as it will only inflame the already bad situation. That last sentence applies to BOTH sides, not just one. Why must we continue to sit here and bicker back and forth between "who is right and who is wrong", when in reality neither side knows or can prove ANYTHING! Is it too hard and too much to ask that we all look objectively, unbiased, and scientifically at the evidence and come to the conclusions that "well we do not know what it was but it could be so and so...WITHOUT the the circular arguments on the theories that each person comes to? Why do we continue to argue about theories built upon theories? Why are many becoming too scared to propose theories that may seem "too far out there and 'out of the box', but yet obviously point to the LOGICAL conclusion based on probability?
It is my suggestion that we all CUT THE CRAP and UNIFY to the common purpose that I fear has been forgotten about in all the personal battles, which are almost always derived from egos. How can we expect to deal with a phenomena such as UFOs and the potential implications if the very people researching it fail to agree amongst themselves and stop arguing over nothing? Some people don't want the "UFO Mystery" revealed, some are too caught up in their own ego and personal battles that they really don't care anymore (either consciously or not). I fear that if this does not end soon then ufology will be a LONG forgotten field within the next 20 years at most and go out without so much as a mention in history.
One final note that I feel is important, I have noticed that it seems like most ufologist seem so dissociated from the mainstream public it really is funny. WHY? How do we expect to be taken seriously if we can not connect with the mass public? I mean just because you believe something considered 'fringe' does not mean you can not socialize, converse, and utilize the general public. It seems that ufologist and those who believe have began such a deeper decent into the corner of reality that it would be hard for anyone that has a normal life to take what they (WE) say seriously. I mean just because you believe in UFOs and aliens does that mean you can not be like the rest of the population? My point is this (and I already know some will not understand what I am trying to say here...) : we need to stop alienating ourselves (no pun intended) from the rest of the population. We have done it enough already, both by our own hands and basics social processes. It is time to GET OUT to the public, make the best cases known, get people EDUCATED, do not push things you can not prove, simply make them known to many.
I promise it will work, it has all throughout the
human history...
It is easy really...
UNITE together for the common purpose WE ALL are trying to achieve--The truth, no matter what it be.
Get the legitimate and science backed information out to the public.
Use popular culture for our advantage, whatever it takes to get the legit UFO phenomena recognized by the masses.
I would bet anything that if those three things are followed ufology would have a much more serious and orderly place in the world right now.
Also, this post is not directed at anyone person, it is to ALL, as a WHOLE, which we ARE. I feel that a major 'face-lift' is needed in ufology and soon. I know this post will probably go unheeded but at least I tried.
I know we can do it guys, we just need to COME TOGETHER..
[edit on 9/16/2009 by jkrog08]
Good to see you on these boards my friend.
I was actually thinking and getting agitated about this VERY same thing. In fact I thought you (the OP)
were someone else I was talking to about this earlier. I too have seen the recent surge in skepticism here on ATS and elsewhere where it seems that
people are becoming 'scared' to even begin to theorize on things and make logical assumptions. Pretty much it seems like those in ufology are simply
"waiting for a case to be debunked" without doing the research themselves. Furthermore I think that there is an internal 'civil war' between all of us in ufology, even those of us who are more neutral in our approach. It seems we have one side that wants to push whatever comes to mind and "looks good" and state it as fact. I could name COUNTLESS individuals but I won't
They know who they are, as do many here on ATS (btw I am not talking about people on ATS). It seems that some people who are erroneously
considered "UFO Pros" by the public are so anxious to either propagate their own fantasy or make a buck off of the WAY to obviously gullible masses
of 'beleivers', well really pseudobelievers, that will willingly post, copy, spam, and buy into ANYTHING these damn charalatins say or do. BUT THEN........We have the pseudoskeptics who are either too scared to jump outside of their "professional comfort level" or risk thinking outside of whatever limited outlook they have on reality, likely a natural defense mechanism due to the severe influx of pseudobelievers and their recent EXTREME propagation in this field. And of course those psuedobelievers are also actively pushing more and more crap to counter the "insurgence" by the pseudoskeptics(which I do fear entails many more people and ufologist these days, as does the other end). It now seems like, in my very humble opinion, that ufology is turning into a damn crap throwing contest and circular arguments over disproving each other when the main doctrine of ufology should be to find out what the hell these UFOs are, and if the "alien theory" (yes, that is the most accepted and likely theory like it or not) is actually true, rather than worrying about debunking some crap like the GFL, Mexican UFOs, etc, etc...
Way too many people are now taking the defensive calling out others and blaming them, well that achieves NOTHING. So if you are happy to just sit back and type, write, or speak some crap and do NOTHING to help the very cause you claim to care about then it is prolly' best you do or say nothing at all, as it will only inflame the already bad situation. That last sentence applies to BOTH sides, not just one. Why must we continue to sit here and bicker back and forth between "who is right and who is wrong", when in reality neither side knows or can prove ANYTHING! Is it too hard and too much to ask that we all look objectively, unbiased, and scientifically at the evidence and come to the conclusions that "well we do not know what it was but it could be so and so...WITHOUT the the circular arguments on the theories that each person comes to? Why do we continue to argue about theories built upon theories? Why are many becoming too scared to propose theories that may seem "too far out there and 'out of the box', but yet obviously point to the LOGICAL conclusion based on probability?
It is my suggestion that we all CUT THE CRAP and UNIFY to the common purpose that I fear has been forgotten about in all the personal battles, which are almost always derived from egos. How can we expect to deal with a phenomena such as UFOs and the potential implications if the very people researching it fail to agree amongst themselves and stop arguing over nothing? Some people don't want the "UFO Mystery" revealed, some are too caught up in their own ego and personal battles that they really don't care anymore (either consciously or not). I fear that if this does not end soon then ufology will be a LONG forgotten field within the next 20 years at most and go out without so much as a mention in history.
One final note that I feel is important, I have noticed that it seems like most ufologist seem so dissociated from the mainstream public it really is funny. WHY? How do we expect to be taken seriously if we can not connect with the mass public? I mean just because you believe something considered 'fringe' does not mean you can not socialize, converse, and utilize the general public. It seems that ufologist and those who believe have began such a deeper decent into the corner of reality that it would be hard for anyone that has a normal life to take what they (WE) say seriously. I mean just because you believe in UFOs and aliens does that mean you can not be like the rest of the population? My point is this (and I already know some will not understand what I am trying to say here...) : we need to stop alienating ourselves (no pun intended) from the rest of the population. We have done it enough already, both by our own hands and basics social processes. It is time to GET OUT to the public, make the best cases known, get people EDUCATED, do not push things you can not prove, simply make them known to many.
I promise it will work, it has all throughout the
human history... It is easy really...
I would bet anything that if those three things are followed ufology would have a much more serious and orderly place in the world right now.
Also, this post is not directed at anyone person, it is to ALL, as a WHOLE, which we ARE. I feel that a major 'face-lift' is needed in ufology and soon. I know this post will probably go unheeded but at least I tried.
I know we can do it guys, we just need to COME TOGETHER..
[edit on 9/16/2009 by jkrog08]
reply posted on 15-9-2009 @ 10:04 PM by john124
reply to post by reticledc
I think you are misunderstanding scepticism. Remember it's the believers who are claiming so much more without the physical evidence to back up their claims. You can't blame somebody for wanting to see proof before accepting it as fact, it's just how the human mind works best.
You may mistake sceptics ruling out the possibility of alien visitation, with needing to see the evidence first. Stop trying to convince people without proof, just tell them once, and if they don't want to know, then discuss it with somebody else. Accept they need physical evidence, and it doesn't matter what they don't know, because one day they "will" know!
I think you are misunderstanding scepticism. Remember it's the believers who are claiming so much more without the physical evidence to back up their claims. You can't blame somebody for wanting to see proof before accepting it as fact, it's just how the human mind works best.
You may mistake sceptics ruling out the possibility of alien visitation, with needing to see the evidence first. Stop trying to convince people without proof, just tell them once, and if they don't want to know, then discuss it with somebody else. Accept they need physical evidence, and it doesn't matter what they don't know, because one day they "will" know!
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