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I'm pretty tired of skeptics who are unable to think outside the box.

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posted on Sep, 17 2009 @ 11:57 PM
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I think the one thing we can all agree on is that we are no closer to the truth now than when we were 40 years ago. Whether it be a 'believer' or a skeptic, at the end of the day we are all in the same basket. We can not confirm either way and we really know little to nothing. It is a mystery, an enigma.

Both believers and skeptics seek the same thing... the truth. However, I believe there is a third party that would have us at each others throats, that would have the entire community in disarray. The words divide and conquer come to mind. While we maintain 2 clearly defined sides of the fence we will forever stay in the dark.

Believers and Skeptics need to pool their resources.

IRM


[edit on 17/9/09 by InfaRedMan]




posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 12:35 AM
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Why do some individuals have a problem with skeptics? Skeptics are simply people who rely on reliable evidence. They don't accept hearsay as most do. Yes, there are hard-on skeptics who have closed minds and the best example of such is Robert Sheaffer who will deny the existence of non-human aerial craft to his death.

But I'm sure any skeptic will come to a reasonable conclusion when presented with irrefutable evidence.

So don't criticize skeptics, win them over with evidence.



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 12:48 AM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 


Welcome to the land of reigion

Catholic Church=NO BOUNDS



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 07:44 AM
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Originally posted by Skeptical Ed
Why do some individuals have a problem with skeptics?

People have a sense of fear. Your question is similar to "Why do people have problems with god?". Even though its a question from the opposite spectrum, the answer is pretty much straight forward. Fear. People are afraid to learn about themselves. According to some religious groups, science takes away the importance of god. I believe science attempts to define the elements, which God had used to create the universe.

Philosophical questions driven by curiosity start the process, and then scientific methods are used to determine if those curiosities have levity. People are afraid of the answer, and what it means to their own lives.

---------------------------------

When it comes to this specific group of individuals, some (not all) fear science because they can't live with certain realities. Imagine if someday we learn that aliens do not look like Roswell Grays or Lizard Folks. Suddenly those people will be confronted with another reality. Their experiences never happened. Where do they go from there?

"Absolute proof" at this point would be to make direct contact. If the folk lure version of aliens do exist, we can use different sciences to determine what their type of culture is like. We can ask for DNA samples to see if there is a collation between species.

What scares the hell out of some ufologist is that their assumptions of these unknown elements are in contradiction to expectation. Science can break down some of those false beliefs. People fear that. They fear reality.

[edit on 18-9-2009 by Pathos]



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 10:26 AM
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reply to post by Pathos
 


Again, you fail the point completly.

You say "these people are afraid of science because it would prove their assumptions are wrong".

Well, why can't you understand that they are assumptions? That they are theories?

Have you ever noticed the SCREAM to science that ufology does? "INVESTIGATE THIS! FUND THIS! GO AFTER THEM!"

And what we get FROM science? "That's not an important issue. You're just nuts about aliens. We don't care". The most advanced thing we got FROM science was SETI, that's it.

After being left alone by science (although any reasearh in the matter of technology, to me, is science) UFOlogy constructed its own path, because scientists think too high of themselfs to go "to the level of those loonies in the UFO community".

STILL you have scientests who claim that they do believe in alien life, and you have NUMEROUS scientists that have even come up with THEORIES regarding alien life. Are you even aware of the concept of the 3 types of Universal Civilizations, by Dr. Michio Kaku? What? Is he afraid of science? Is he a loonie?

Don't judge Ufology based on guys like Steve Greer, or those people you see on "Jay Walk"... They are a joke, they don't represent TRUE ufology.

That was the point I adressed in my first post. There are TRUE skeptics and TRUE believers.

The people who you claim that are afraid of science because it would bring their beliefs to the ground, are the ones that don't belong to ufology, true ufology. Are the charlatans, and the fake people, and the hoaxers and the people who cry for attention. Those are the ones who will see their books useless, and their stories faked.

TRUE ufology will clap to the moment where we'll know the truth, we are SEEKING the truth. Even skeptics like Phage and Arbitrageur will marvell at the truth, because, from what I think of them, they are not proving that aliens don't exist, they are only proving that the matterial around is simple misinformation from the people who have the sightings, wrong interpretations of mundane things.

And although you say science is the enemy of ufology, I can easily prove to you that it's the opposite.

Science gave "us" the tools to refine our way of thinking.

In ufology, people believe that aliens are some sort of human projection. Grays and that sort of alien.

Science has already stated "life outside Earth, might be as crazy as the life we see on the bottom of the deepest oceans". Now, we don't have to marvell only to humanoid aliens, we have to assume that aliens can have a lot of weird shappes and nature. Maybe they don't look like anything we could imagine or base on Earth nature, or ourselfs... Maybe aliens are a stick, maybe they are like ghosts, maybe they are plants... Science SHOWN that to us, with EVIDENCE.

And for all the theories, Einstein told us how they could travell to us, Hawkins showed us that they could use the wormhole theory, and others claim the string theory, or mulltidimensional travell.

Science did that, not some loonie in buttnowhere that claimed his dog was probed by some aliens.

How can you claim science is the enemy of Ufology when science gave us so much?

[edit on 18/9/09 by Tifozi]



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by Tifozi
 




concept of the 3 types of Universal Civilizations, by Dr. Michio Kaku?


i think your talking about the Kardashev scale first proposed in 1964 by the Soviet Russian astronomer Nikolai Kardashev.



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by Tifozi
You say "these people are afraid of science because it would prove their assumptions are wrong".

No I didn't. You are glossing over what I said.

I was clearly expressing why "some people" in the ufo community are afraid of science and skepticism.

[edit on 18-9-2009 by Pathos]



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 11:30 AM
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reply to post by Pathos
 


The honest TRUTH with a capital T. nothing is to sell but to buy at what price is the question.

How many wonders await a person that is viewing the world with unclouded eyes. My guides are the ones that made that day happen perhaps to make me aware of perhaps how we will see one day shortly, but before my vision went into green it split four ways like I was viewing something with four eyes then went into holographic viewing.


Believe it or not.



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 11:36 AM
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reply to post by yeti101
 


Thank you for the correction.

reply to post by Pathos
 


No, I'm not.

You have clearly made some "hard" statements about science and ufology. NOW and the last post you are changing your argument and saying "some".



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 11:45 AM
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reply to post by Tifozi
 

Okay.

Do you know the makeup, capability, and types of every single military aircraft ever made (or is in production)?
If you cannot answer the above question with a 'yes', that means there is doubt behind the logic that alien made UFOs have visited Earth. In order to successfully debate in favor of the alien UFO theory, you would have to have knowledge about every single aircraft (classified and unclassified) known to man.

Do you have that information?


Before every other question can be asked, the above question needs to be answered. If you cannot get passed this question (with out "absolute" proof), the argument behind alien made UFOs visiting Earth stops.

[edit on 18-9-2009 by Pathos]



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 12:28 PM
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reply to post by Pathos
 


You keep messing your points up.

No, I don't have that information, neither do you, neither does any of the any other mortal that goes around in this forum, or in ufology, or any other branch, for that matter.

Only the military themselfs, and the ones who they have to respond to, have that information.

But the governaments themselfs don't give you information, and they go as long as deny the existance of those crafts. They say "what we got, is what you see", so...After that, what could be those crafts (those cases that are not ballons, weather phenomena or anything else mundane) that appear in some reports? Well, maybe they are alien, maybe they're not... Maybe they are a secret aircraft after all and the governament is lying.

What YOU don't understand, and I'm repeating myself over and over again, refuting every point you raise, is that ufology debates possibilities and raises the points that don't add up.

When you see a ufologist (again, when speaking of ufology, I speak about the TRUE ufology) saying he knows a fact, it's either that the UFO was reported on radar, or that it was saw by hundreds of witnesses or that some report from the governament states something, or that some points don't add up at all.

They report those facts... And then, and only AFTER that, they make theories up based upon what they do know.

They know that there is a base called Area51 that may hold some secrets. They take what they know about another events, place the info they know that relates to area51 and the theory that maybe in area51 there is alien techonology appears.

You can't see past the "this is a theory; this is an assumption; this is a possible scenario;"...

For example, FBI profilers. They make up the profile of the killer around LITTLE (if none) evidence that they hold about him, from his behavior to his mentality, and so on.

After that, they make up a profile, and say "this is a POSSIBLE scenario built up with this profile". Nobody says that is wrong, because they are able to catch the bad guys using that technique...

...but Ufology, that uses the same principle, is pathetic? Why? Because the subject in study is much harder to investigate?

When you have people as powerful as a governament, do you honestly believe that you can get hold of evidence or proof that easily? You can't...

A secret airplane crashes, and within minutes the military has already recovered every single piece of it or simply cover it up with some mission, and untill that secret airplane is revealed to the public, you wouldn't even know that the crash of a ballon that you heard, was actually a secret airplane.

That happens, because technology keeps its evolution, and the RS-71 Blackbird, and the F-117 become irrelevant and they can be brought to public eyes.

But what about alien technology? Maybe it isn't irrelevant... Maybe they STILL want to keep it a secret... How could you have confirmation if it is, or not, alien technology up in the air? You don't untill they want to...

For example, using my professional background.

An aircraft crashes... Big boom... All dead, no records. Worst than that, you lose a lot of the aircraft fuselage, so you don't have that much information. You don't have witnesses, or the ones you have, don't give much information away.

You investigate the background of the company, of the aircraft and the crew. After that, you build up THEORIES about what could possibly happen.

Either you come up with a theory that later is proven by recovery of some evidence from the crash; or you simply believe that theory to be the closest to the truth BASED UPON what you know about the crash, about the aircraft model, and so on...

Again, why is ufology a joke, and "wrong" and "will never prove the existance of aliens", or "is afraid of science" when ufology uses the same techniques?

Actually, there are movements from pilots regarding UFO's, and there is a culture around UFOs in aviation.

If I see a UFO while flying, I have to report it the second I leave my plane.

Why? Because the FAA and the JAA have already stated that ANYTHING that is up there, that they know isn't ours should be reported so action can be taken, or at least, control the pilots response. EVERYONE in aviation takes UFOs seriously, because some UFOs may bring 250 people to the ground in a second.

The ones that later they know was theirs, are rulled out. But there is a portion of events up there that DON'T have explanation, and governaments themselfs are AFRAID of...

Could them be some secret aircrafts? Yes, of course.
Could them be aliens? Yes, it's POSSIBLE. You don't know either way. It's a theory based on EVIDENCE.

And for the secret airplanes, I can tell that from my experience there are secret aircrafts that we don't know nothing about. I've seen one, and I know pilots that experienced the same.

Some are not definitly aliens, and some....are unexplainable.

EDIT to add (after reading your edit):

Since when it's up to you to judge what is evidence, what isn't? You're putting arrogance on the table again.

[edit on 18/9/09 by Tifozi]



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by Tifozi
No, I don't have that information, neither do you, neither does any of the any other mortal that goes around in this forum, or in ufology, or any other branch, for that matter.

We are done. You created an assumption that alien UFOs exist, and then you made it out as being fact. Since there is "factual" and unattainable information missing, no one in these forums can currently conclude that UFOs are in fact alien made. Its impossible.

Doubt = the inability to consider something as fact.

[edit on 18-9-2009 by Pathos]



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by Pathos
When it comes to evidence that scientists find professionally, (NASA, SETI, Universities, JPL, etc...), I believe they have enough credibility to give it weight. If you personally have access to a powerful enough telescope, you can find Alpha Centuri for yourself. Correct?


That's correct, just like you can go to the public library in downtown LA on 5th street, and pull up the microfishe film of the 1942 LA Times wherein you will find photographic evidence of (according to the US Army) an unidentied flying object caught in the beams of at least 9 searchlights, being pounded with AA flak.


Originally posted by Pathos
Issues come from drawing a conclusion based upon evidence provided by those with a limited perspective. You and I cannot list every single military craft ever made, nor do we know how the currently known planes work. Same thing does apply to say Mexican fighter pilots. Even though they cannot explain what is in the sky with them, that does not mean Russian, United States, Asia, or Europe doesn't have the technology. Mexican fighter pilots are only comparing what they see to the limitation of what they know.

Make sense.

[edit on 17-9-2009 by Pathos]


It doesn't make sense actually, that's why I tried to cite the 50 year declassification law to you earlier.

We in fact CAN establish a data set including all man-made planes from 1942. The data on all planes made by man in 1942 is available on the public record. I've studied the top candidates, they fall short of the performance demonstrated in the event.

-WFA



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 12:56 PM
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Originally posted by Pathos
reply to post by Tifozi
 

Okay.

Do you know the makeup, capability, and types of every single military aircraft ever made (or is in production)?
If you cannot answer the above question with a 'yes', that means there is doubt behind the logic that alien made UFOs have visited Earth. In order to successfully debate in favor of the alien UFO theory, you would have to have knowledge about every single aircraft (classified and unclassified) known to man.

Do you have that information?




From 1942, YES! And so do you if you'd bother to google for it!

Wake up kiddo!


-WFA



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by Pathos

Originally posted by Tifozi
No, I don't have that information, neither do you, neither does any of the any other mortal that goes around in this forum, or in ufology, or any other branch, for that matter.

We are done. You created an assumption that alien UFOs exist, and then you made it out as being fact. Since there is "factual" and unattainable information missing, no one in these forums can currently conclude that UFOs are in fact alien made. Its impossible.

Doubt = the inability to consider something as fact.

[edit on 18-9-2009 by Pathos]


I'd just like to post the above again, to make sure the pure stupidity of the statement is observed by all on this board. And because Pathos I've observed you have a tendency to go back and edit your posts after your points are rebutted. I want these ridiculous statements preserved, thus the quoting...

Pathos, why are you unwilling to let go of the term 'absolute proof'.

It has been demonstrated to you clearly that absolute proof does not exist for ANYTHING...

You yourself failed to 'prove' the existence of an F117A, something WE ALL KNOW EXISTS!

For goodness sake man. Science uses the scientific method. Nowhere within the Scientific method is the word 'proof' mentioned.

Science can never achieve 'absolute proof' because new discoveries are ALWAYS being made, and ALL theories must continue to fit with the new evidence or be discarded for a theory that does.

If you do not follow these outlined rules, you are not conducting Science.

Absolute proof does not exist in Science, and the more you cling to the false assumption that it does, the less Scientific your arguments become.

If you want to be a skeptic, it's really an easy thing to do. Crack your mind open and follow where the evidence leads, in EVERY case. Follow the scientific method step by step, and formulate your theories in accordance with the results of your experimentation and comparison against the data!

That's it. That's as far as Science goes. There is no proof to be had, except what YOU choose to BELIEVE within your MIND.

-WFA

[edit on 18-9-2009 by WitnessFromAfar]



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 01:49 PM
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reply to post by Pathos
 


Like the most extreme *true* skeptic will tell you: You can't prove that they don't exist either.

That's why we work in theories around here.

The rest, WFA just said it much better than me.



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 08:45 PM
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reply to post by Tifozi
 


You said: "STILL you have scientests who claim that they do believe in alien life, and you have NUMEROUS scientists that have even come up with THEORIES regarding alien life. Are you even aware of the concept of the 3 types of Universal Civilizations, by Dr. Michio Kaku? What? Is he afraid of science? Is he a loonie?"

First, it is my opinion that no earthling can make any comments about the alleged aliens for there is no evidence for their reality. The reality of UFOs can not be questioned. But no one knows if beings are piloting them, IF they are craft. The concepts of aliens are just human projections.

Regarding Dr Michio Kaku, he is a theoretical physicist specializing in string field theory, and a futurist. He doesn't talk about real things. Therefore, he has no concept about any other civilization except the one found on planet earth: us. He can theorize all he wants but in the end he has no evidence, just thoughts. (BTW, I met him in my NYC neighborhood at a flea market.)



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 09:08 PM
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This always makes me laugh: "Like the most extreme *true* skeptic will tell you: You can't prove that they don't exist either." I'm not an extreme skeptic, like Robert Sheaffer, but I do require evidence before I accept anything. Show me that aliens exist. I don't think you nor anyone can. Therefore, they don't exist. Wait until there is evidence then we skeptics can change our mind.


Originally posted by Tifozi
reply to post by Pathos
 


Like the most extreme *true* skeptic will tell you: You can't prove that they don't exist either.

That's why we work in theories around here.

The rest, WFA just said it much better than me.



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 09:41 PM
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reply to post by Skeptical Ed
 



First, it is my opinion that no earthling can make any comments about the alleged aliens for there is no evidence for their reality.


Exactly. Your opinion.


The reality of UFOs can not be questioned. But no one knows if beings are piloting them, IF they are craft. The concepts of aliens are just human projections.


Oh...Yes... Those damn projections of the human mind...

I just wonder where we would be without them...

Oh...wait.





Regarding Dr Michio Kaku, he is a theoretical physicist specializing in string field theory, and a futurist. He doesn't talk about real things.


The D and the r before his name are real. I'm a bit tired of hearing people kissing science as* and pointing the finger at ufology, and when someone gives an example of a known CREDIBLE scientist, people just say "baahh...he's a loonie. He just makes theories up".

Make up your mind.


Therefore, he has no concept about any other civilization except the one found on planet earth: us.


So?

It's a theory. Not a fact. It's a tool for thinking, not a dogma.


This always makes me laugh: "Like the most extreme *true* skeptic will tell you: You can't prove that they don't exist either."


Maybe you laugh because you don't understand it.


but I do require evidence before I accept anything.


ATS has a very good "Search" function, that sometimes works very well.


Show me that aliens exist. I don't think you nor anyone can.


Show me that the F-117 exists. This has already been adressed.


Show me that aliens exist. I don't think you nor anyone can. Therefore, they don't exist.


Now you reminded me of my daughter.

When she was 8 months old, I would put her toy in front on the table, and she would laugh and laugh without stopping. If I putted my hand in front of the toy, to her, it didn't existed.

Since when "I don't see it, so it isn't there" is true, for anything? Ridiculous point.


Wait until there is evidence then we skeptics can change our mind.


Don't say "we". I'm a skeptic and I don't take that attitude of "everything on a forum about THEORIES is useless, and I'll only believe when they kick me in the rear".

I analyze and judge every evidence that I can find, and I've an opinion about alien life. I don't take assumptions so that I can accuse others of making assumptions up.

You're assuming aliens don't exist, the same way others assume they do. You're not right just because you exist. And don't try and go the path of proof, I'm tired of that discussion.



posted on Sep, 18 2009 @ 10:23 PM
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This is my impression of this thread and every one of its kind.
UFO guy - I hate skeptics. They live in boxes and are afraid of the truth. Aliens are real.

Skeptic - Show me the evidence or proof of your alien claim.

UFO guy - I don't have any other than repeating what others say so you live in a box!

That's it. Nothing is ever gained or added. You either believe because the available evidence sways you that way or you don't because you require tangible evidence that you can bite on.
Skeptics don't live in boxes and ufo guys arent gullible idiots (Bill Birnes may be), but in the end both sides crave the same thing. Please stop arguing about it.



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