Vladimir Putin signals plan to reclaim old job as Russian president

Originally posted by silent thunder
The dude could rip your windpipe out one-handed without twitching a facial muscle.

While doing your hair....


So much for Russia being a democracy.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d763fe961b0c.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
I admire him.
He's the best leader Russia has had for some time.
He's also very grounded, IMHO.

Nice to know you admire a man who has mentioned on several ocasions he would love to see Russia as the old U.S.S.R.

Not to mention that many Russian journalists who have been too critical of Putin and the Russian government have found themselves dead...

Not to mention that the government under Putin even murdered Alexander Litvinenko

a former officer of the Russian Federal Security Service, FSB and KGB, who escaped prosecution in Russia and received political asylum in the United Kingdom. He authored two books, "Blowing up Russia: Terror from within" and "Lubyanka Criminal Group", where he accused the Russian secret services of staging Russian apartment bombings and other terrorism acts to bring Vladimir Putin to power.
On 1 November 2006, Litvinenko suddenly fell ill and was hospitalized. He died three weeks later, becoming the first confirmed victim of lethal polonium-210-induced acute radiation syndrome.[1] According to doctors, "Litvinenko's murder represents an ominous landmark: the beginning of an era of nuclear terrorism".[2][3][4]

Litvinenko's allegations about the misdeeds of the Federal Security Service of Russia (FSB) and his public deathbed accusations that Russian president Vladimir Putin was behind his unusual malady resulted in worldwide media coverage.[5]

Subsequent investigations by British authorities into the circumstances of Litvinenko's death led to serious diplomatic difficulties between the British and Russian governments. Unofficially, British authorities asserted that "we are 100% sure who administered the poison, where and how". However they did not disclose their evidence in the interest of a future trial. The main suspect in the case, a former officer of the Russian Federal Protective Service (FSO) Andrei Lugovoy, remains in Russia. As a member of the Duma, he now enjoys immunity from prosecution. Before the suspect was elected to the Duma, the British government tried to extradite him, but without success, as described below.

en.wikipedia.org...

Not to mention the fact that the Russian government raided the largest Human Rights building in Russia which had detailed accounts of the murdes of Stalin because the Russian government, with the blessings of none other than Putin want to rewrite the history of Russia and indoctrinate into the Russian people the lies that Stalin was a hero...

By Alex Rodriguez
December 17, 2008


ST. PETERSBURG, Russia — At first, the purpose behind the midday raid at a human-rights group’s office here was murky. Police, some clad in masks and camouflage, cut the electricity to Memorial’s offices and demanded to know if any drugs or guns were kept on the premises.

Five hours later, after police had opened every computer and walked out with 11 hard drives, the reason for their visit became clear to Memorial Director Irina Flige.

On the hard drives, a trove of scanned images and documents memorialized Josef Stalin’s murderous reign of terror. Diagrams scrawled out by survivors detailed layouts of labor camps. There were photos of Russians executed by Stalin’s secret police, wrenching accounts of survival from gulag inmates and maps showing the locations of mass graves.

“They knew what they were taking,” Flige said. “Today, the state tries to reconstruct history to make it appear like a long chain of victories. And they want these victories to be seen as justifying Stalin’s repressions.”

Stalin, the brutal Soviet dictator responsible for the deaths of millions of his citizens, has been undergoing a makeover of sorts in recent years. Russian authorities have reshaped the Georgia-born dictators image into that of a misunderstood, demonized leader who did what he had to do to mold the Soviet Union into the superpower it became.
.................
When he was president, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin sought to shift the nation’s focus away from Stalin’s legacy of brutality. Meeting with history teachers in 2007, Putin acknowledged that Russian history “did contain some problematic pages. But so did other states’ histories.

“We have fewer of them than other countries, and they were less terrible than in other nations,” Putin continued. “We can’t allow anyone to impose a sense of guilt on us.”

The battle over how Stalin should be remembered remains one of Russia’s most divisive topics of debate. For many Russians, Stalin’s achievements far outweigh his crimes. He is seen as the wartime leader who saved the Motherland from Nazi Germany in World War II and engineered the country’s ascent as a global powerhouse.

For many others, that ascent was made using millions of Russians’ lives as grist. Historians estimate that Stalin’s decrees led to the deaths of as many as 20 million people, either from famine, execution, incarceration in labor camps or during mass deportations.

archives.chicagotribune.com...

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
And he's right. But im certain no damn westerner will listen!

He is right really?... After all of the above, and some more no wonder no "westerner" understands people like you....

Anyway, nice to know that you admire an assassin, a murderer, and a dictator....



[edit on 14-9-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by stevegmu


Believe what you like. Sometimes things aren't just exactly as they seem. I don't know where you live, but the US gets less genuine news than the rest of the western world. I would be careful about what the MSM feeds you at the best of times, but particularly if you're on US soil.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


the lessor of two evils.

People admire strong men, leaders!
People want to be lead, not follow!

If I had a choice of any of our 'great western ceo's' (by that I mean presidents and prime ministers), Id have taken Putin in a heart beat.

As for Litvenko, nothing has ever been proven UK tabloids are seldom to be trusted. But its the perfect propaganda story isnt it, especially for the commie hating west. Ex KGB spy seeking assistance in the UK blaming everything on the evil Russian PM.

I suppose next your going to tell me those poor Georgians were ruthlessly invaded by this madman?

Not to mention that many Russian journalists who have been too critical of Putin and the Russian government have found themselves dead...

And this is different from the US/UK How?
OR do we forget fallen people under suspicious circumstances who don’t tow the 'official line' ?


As for re-writing history?..
Again, tell me how this is different from the west?

Russia forces raiding 1x building in Russia is not going to re-write history.
How many other nations experienced the horrors of Stalin?
How many other photos'documents'audio's are there of Stalin’s rule?
Its naive to say this was an attempt at re-writing history.


[edit on 14-9-2009 by Agit8dChop]

I'm quite happy to live in a democracy, but I do not share the naive view that "democracy" is a magic wand that can be waved over any nation and suddenly before you know it everyone will be happily trundling off to the nearest Circuit City to buy an elmo mousepad or whatever. There are places in the world where the choices are starker: Anarchy or iron rule. In such situations, for those who are able to survive the periods of anarchy, iron rule is usually the preferable lesser of two evils.

I doubt you'd find many Russians who'd like to swap Putin's "authoritarianism" for Yeltsin's drunken "freedom."

I'm not entirely sold on the Western concept of democracy, anyway.

I like Putin. He strikes me as a no-nonsense leader, which is something I can respect.

And yeah, Americans - before you start trundling out accusations of assassinations and espionage by the Russians, I have three letters for you:

C, I and A.

reply to post by phi1618


haha funny post, and just to be a pain i noticed something funny

what was count dracs real name? Vlad the impaler

seems fitting LOL

gotta love the turks hahaha

reply to post by SLAYER69


hahaha

now that was freakin funnny LOL

STAR!!! haha

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
Pfft. There will be no conflict. If it looks that way, it's play-acting. There is no question who is in charge. No one's ego is bigger than Putin's and he will have his dictatorship come hell or waters high. I don't know who you're listening to, but their info is off. Putin is Russia's leader, full stop.

Everyone says Medvedev is Putin's pal. Since when is it normal behavior to quit a job because a friend wants to take that job from you? Friendships can turn sour over much less things then the seat of the Russian Presidency.

Secondly, I know that Putin holds most of the levers of power, limiting drastically what Medvedev can do at the present. He must wait for the right moment to cast off the puppet strings. Medvedev's optimal time to make such a move comes either when the Presidential elections are less than a year away, or just before starting a major military conflict, or at some point during an economic meltdown.

To succeed Medvedev probably should do these things:
-give the media it's freedom not too long before elections(the Media would get its revenge against Putin).
-give the opposition and other parties fair elections(they'll side with Medvedev over Putin's sham elections).
-call for somewhat "early elections" to preempt any impeachment move by Putin.
-bribe United Russia officials to overcome any attempt by Putin to use that party to impeach him.
-initiate a state of emergency or foreign military confrontation to prevent impeachment.
-obtain the loyalty of top military brass.
-become more putin then putin himself regarding foreign affairs.


For now, Medvedev has done all he realistically can...He is drawing people's attention to the failed Putin policies(without directly blaming Putin) which would also serve as the talking points used against Putin in a future election campaign.:
www.washingtontimes.com...
www.guardian.co.uk...


[edit on 14-9-2009 by Phantomfire707]

reply to post by Phantomfire707


Putin didn't "quit" at all. He is poising himself to be pres again in 2012. All of this was very clearly planned many years ago. Don't think for one second that Putin wields anything less than absolute power there. I know there are some who would optimistically believe that elections are free and fair in Russia. That's as true as it is in the US. So, NOT!

Bosom buddies or not, Vlad will never stand aside and let Dima play president for a second term. Putin will have his title back, make no mistake. It's not even a consideration, my friend. Read all the expert opinions you like, but know this: Putin runs the show. He will take back the presidency in 2012 *unless there is a better way for him to have more power*. If that path comes to light, he will make a very feeble campaign and bow out gracefully.

This is politics, not gentlemen's chess. You're reading the words of the political analyses. You must read the meaning in the meaning to understand.

reply to post by SLAYER69


You keep posting Russian beauty queens like that one and I may have to get me one of those mail order brides.

His old job is the same as his new job. The only thing he will be reclaiming is his title.

Originally posted by CosmicEgg
reply to post by Phantomfire707

 

Putin didn't "quit" at all. He is poising himself to be pres again in 2012. All of this was very clearly planned many years ago. Don't think for one second that Putin wields anything less than absolute power there. I know there are some who would optimistically believe that elections are free and fair in Russia. That's as true as it is in the US. So, NOT!

Bosom buddies or not, Vlad will never stand aside and let Dima play president for a second term. Putin will have his title back, make no mistake. It's not even a consideration, my friend. Read all the expert opinions you like, but know this: Putin runs the show. He will take back the presidency in 2012 *unless there is a better way for him to have more power*. If that path comes to light, he will make a very feeble campaign and bow out gracefully.

Oh, I have no doubt that Putin fully expects to retake the title of president in 2012 or earlier. And I've already stated that Putin holds most of the levers of power. Putin planned it in advance for sure. But that is not nearly enough to ensure Medvedev doesn't display some balls and make a power move to beat Putin at his own game by 2011. Putin's power is massive but it is still limited by the system. Putin also has to count on other people to realize his plans but people are fickle.

Meanwhile Putin's only legitimate power play in removing Medvedev is through the impeachment process--of which successful impeachment is no guarantee--as a sufficient number of United Russia members may refuse to take a side....neither is it totally certain the the Federation Council and Supreme Court would sufficiently support Putin over Medvedev once the lines are drawn.

Putin's only other options are criminal: having Medvedev killed and risk being suspected by the public(if Medvedev is smart he would be cautious of this); a military coup...which would be condemned by the free world and turn Putin into a despot (there is no certainty that the top military brass would go along with this option); carrying through with a blackmail threat by releasing compromising material of Medvedev through the media which everyone knows to be state owned thus exposing Putin as the source; Threatening to have Medvedev's family killed(which I doubt Putin would resort to against his buddy). Did I leave anything out?

Therefore Putin does not have any good options in the event that Medvedev refuses to step aside.

It seems like many people don't really understand the link between Putin and Medvedev, and the relationship between the ruling duo. There will be no conflict over power between them. Medvedev will gladly step aside if Putin feels the need to take his place again.

In fact Medvedev would be more fitting for the role of Russian Prime Minister than President based on the job responsibilities and expectations. It would not surprise me if Putin is carving out the role of Prime Minister (which he is now) specifically for Medvedev to take over. Medvedev has no need to take a stand against Putin or to go against him head-to-head. Medvedev is a great self-made lawyer, but as his political career was created by Putin.


Here is how it works:

When Putin was gradually elevated towards Premiership and was bestowed with higher and higher positions under Yeltsin (late 90's), he was already taking the needed steps to secure his future leadership. He developed a whole network of powerful people ("Siloviki" in Russian political slang) who are very loyal to him, by taking his collegues from previous positions (KGB, FSB, St Petersburg Mayor's staff) along with him on his way up. His main skill as a leader is managing people and relationships. He carefully selected the most loyal collegues for his office, and got rid of those he perceived as threats (ex. Berezovsky).

Medvedev was one of proteges and beneficiaries of Putin's climb to power, and was among his most loyal base. That is not to say that Medvedev is a follower and not a leader however. But his political views and policies are very closely alligned with Putin's. The two have always been on the same team. They have no reason to work against each other - if Putin sensed competition in Medvedev he would not have brought him up through the hierarchy.

So no - Medvedev will not get in the way of Putin or whoever his successor becomes. He stands nothing to gain from it. Sure some people, especially abroad, have hoped that Medvedev would take advantage of his power as President and would lead Russia in another direction, eventually straying from Putin's political creed. But they have underestimated just how ardent and steadfast Putin's proteges like Medvedev are.




And even if Medvedev would somehow decide to go against Putin, he wouldn't last in the political arena. No he would not be assassinated ( ) or forcefully removed like some would love to fantasize. Fact is, that in order to hold true power in Russia, one must have the right people underneath him - the power base (Siloviki). These very powerful supporting figures must have vested interest in the leader and his policies. In fact these people may be as powerful and politically influential as the President, but for one reason or another they are better off on the sidelines than at the helm.

This Siloviki system developed under Yeltsin but traces its roots to the Apparatchiks in Soviet Union. Who are these Siloviki characters? Ministers of defense, military, and security agencies (like FSB); oligarchs and business leaders; shadow senior political strategists (this is the tricky one and the one to WATCH). One cannot become (or remain) a President in Russia without their blessing. Putin was astute in that he indirectly chose his own Siloviki and managed to rid of others that he saw as a threat (Berezovsky, Khodorkovsky, etc). But he didn't and couldn't do that himself - he had powerful help. Now Putin can be seen as the main Silovik under the President with a very loyal following among other Siloviki.

Here is one of many articles on the matter for referrence:

www.twq.com...



Sure the Russian people still "elect" the President and Putin is very popular, but it is really about who gets to be on the ballot. There is a more complex chess game taking place among the elite - they choose and the people can approve or reject. This is pretty much known in Russia, and little publicized outside of Russia for one reason or other. It may not be a perfect Democracy, but it seems to work for the time being.





* 'The fraternity of lawyers from St. Petersburg stand at the podium, meanwhile the veterans of the security directorate make decisions - One oversees the operation - and the mayor's office in St. Petersburg is where the story starts.' *

[edit on 14-9-2009 by maloy]

reply to post by maloy


Finally someone who actually knows something about Russian politics.

reply to post by maloy


Great post..

star

Today, Medvedev has hinted that he may run again for president in 2012:
www.google.com...
Medvedev says could run again for Russian president
(AFP) – 1 hour ago
MOSCOW — President Dmitry Medvedev on Tuesday said he would not rule out running again for president in 2012 elections, keeping up the uncertainty about the future political intentions of Russia's ruling duo.
Medvedev's refusal to dismiss the idea of a second term came amid frenzied speculation about the intentions of strongman prime minister Vladimir Putin, who many believe is plotting a return to the Kremlim.
"Some time ago I did not intend to stand for president," Medvedev said, referring to his emergence from relative obscurity to sweep the 2008 polls.
"But fate worked out that way and therefore I'm not going to guess in advance and I do not exclude anything," Russian news agencies quoted him as telling members of an elite discussion group.
.... "As far as my plans are concerned, how I formulate them, you can be sure: I will not be indifferent to my own future," he added enigmatically.
Medvedev noted that Putin had the "highest poll rating" but noted that his own was "not bad". He added that if this were not the case "then other people would be in our place".
"This does not mean that we are deciding something in advance, but as responsible people we must agree on some questions with each other," he added.

The Siloviki post was very interesting.

But perhaps the Siloviki get way too much credit for having the ability to remove a President from office.

Medvedev only needs to take the media, the Election Commission, and the power of impeachment out of Putin/and Siloviki's control...to get his name on the ballot and run for a second term. And to use nationalism to stay or gain popularity in the hearts of the Russian people.

Whether he can govern effectively without the cooperation of the Siloviki, is a seperate matter. Whether he can win the hearts of the Siloviki I do not know. Perhaps the Siloviki go to war against Medvedev afterwards. My only prediction is that he will not step aside for the next election.

I suggest that Medvedev does not want to go down in history as Putin's puppet. Something about power gets people thinking about their legacy and what the history books will say. I bet that merely being called "President" engages the ego into fantasies of maintaining power and making a difference.

Originally posted by Phantomfire707
But perhaps the Siloviki get way too much credit for having the ability to remove a President from office.

They do have very substantial power. The Siloviki are not just some powerful outsiders - they hold top posts within Kremlin's walls - and many executive decisions have to get their approval. They control, either directly or indirectly, many key security and administrative agencies in Russia. In addition to this they have large influence in the Parliament. They might not be able to remove a President, but they can effectively grind the country's political system to a halt.

Originally posted by Phantomfire707
Medvedev only needs to take the media

And who do you think controls the media? The President cannot legally take control of the media, as it is privately owned but the very same elite.

Originally posted by Phantomfire707
And to use nationalism to stay or gain popularity in the hearts of the Russian people.

You make it sound easy. Putin didn't gain his popularity for nationalistic speeches - any candidate can do that. Putin's popularity stems from his actions as President. Putin earned the peoples' trust, and what people want now is the continuation of his policies. That is the only reason why Medvedev got elected.

So far Medvedev has not really developed a cult around his political persona like Putin has, and getting enough loyalty to beat Putin would be near impossible. In order to achieve that (not that that is his goal), he would need to enact some truly remarkable policies that would appeal to the majority of the people. And this would not be easy to do while facing off against the Siloviki and the Parliament.

Originally posted by Phantomfire707
My only prediction is that he will not step aside for the next election.

It is practically guaranteed that he will step aside if that is what's on the agenda of the elite. So far there is absolutely no indication that he is moving against them. All of his policies have received immediate approval in the Parliament, hinting that he is on the same page as Putin.

Moreover, what will he gain if he does not step aside if so asked? Medvedev is part of the same elite - he has common interests with them. And he has not shown himself to be power hungry.

Originally posted by Phantomfire707
I suggest that Medvedev does not want to go down in history as Putin's puppet.

He is not his puppet, he is part of Putin's team. The President in Russia is a face. Sure he makes decisions, but first those decisions must reach a consensus among the power clan behind Kremlin's walls. The President announces them and enacts them. To go against this, would be to try and restructure Russia's entire political system. And Medvedev has nothing to prove the world.

Originally posted by Phantomfire707
Something about power gets people thinking about their legacy and what the history books will say. I bet that merely being called "President" engages the ego into fantasies of maintaining power and making a difference.

Some understand that there is more than personal ego involved. Maybe in the US the President is out to make a name for himself and for his affiliated party. The current Siloviki in Russia may be powerful and affluent, but their ultimate concern is for the future of the Federation.

There are individuals among the Siloviki who are just as powerful if as Medvedev and are very close to Putin's level of power. It's people like Sergei Ivanov, Ivan Sechin, Alexander Voloshin, Anatoliy Serdyukov. They have no interest in make superstar Presidents out of themselves - their main concern is to keep the system in order and to keep the country on its course. And Medvedev is no different from them. They are not in a popularity contest against each other.

I will consider the above reply more carefully latter.

Meanwhile, more news from the Medvedev camp:
Today, a close aide to Medvedev makes election campaign like comments against Putin in support of Medvedev for 2012.


www.reuters.com...
Putin risks becoming "new Brezhnev:" Medvedev aide
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Vladimir Putin, Russia's most powerful politician, risks becoming a decaying Soviet-style leader like Brezhnev if he runs again for president in 2012, a key adviser to President Dmitry Medvedev told Reuters.....
......Yurgens said Putin's first eight years in the Kremlin had been "very good" for Russia and that his choice of Medvedev to succeed him as president indicated that so far he did not want to become a Brezhnev-type figure.

But the best way of avoiding such a scenario would be to encourage an "open, transparent competition between Putin and Medvedev" in 2012 as the leaders of two different factions in Russian government, he added.

Were Putin to run again and win in 2012, he would face an inevitable slide in his reputation, Yurgens added.

"I already feel among the people who drive me, who sell me groceries: 'OK, good prime minister, we'll support him'. But if he's there for another 12 years, believe me, this fatigue of the face and many other problems Russians associate with the top man will make his life emotionally miserable."