It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Pre, mid or post tribulation rapture.

page: 1
1
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 01:32 PM
link   
I am wondering what every one else believes, no one seems to be able to agree. I for one believe in a post tribulation rapture based on Mathew Ch. 24.
If you are a pre or mid believer and you have scripture to back up up your beliefs please post them.
For those who don't believe in one at all while I respect your opinions and ask that you back it up with tact and respect. I have been avoiding making this thread for some time despite the strong desire to do so, out of fear of it not being the civil debate I am hoping for.




posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 01:39 PM
link   
reply to post by calstorm
 


I am agnostic so I don't have belief one way or another. However, I've heard the arguments and I'm not sure if anyone knows for certain.

The people who think they'll be taken up before the tribulation explain the rest of the verses by saying that the Christians who will go through tribulation are newly converted Christians that weren't taken up in the rapture. So if that were the case, how can you know for sure?

Is there any specific verse that makes a concrete case for a post-tribulation rapture?

[edit on 9-9-2009 by theyreadmymind]



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 01:50 PM
link   
Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[Treasury of Scripture Knowledge] [Concordance and Hebrew/Greek Lexicon] [List Audio, Study Tools, Commentaries]
[Hymns] [Versions / Translations] [Dictionary Aids]
[Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select all] Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[Treasury of Scripture Knowledge] [Concordance and Hebrew/Greek Lexicon] [List Audio, Study Tools, Commentaries]
[No Images or Hymns Available] [Versions / Translations] [Dictionary Aids]
[Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select all] Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If you read the entirety of Mathew ch. 24 it paints a clearer picture.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 01:51 PM
link   
I'm not so sure the rapture is a literal event.

Tribulation may also be a self-fulfilling prophecy. At least we seem hell bent to get there given the world today.

Anyway, if it does occur I believe it would be post-trib simply because we need to suffer to understand what true Love is.

I sort of think of it like giving a kid a high-school diploma when he is in Kindergarten. Getting the gift before the work means the lesson isn't learned.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 02:03 PM
link   
This is one of those fun discussions to have with a group of Christians because it's one of those debateable points that probably isn't going to matter to most of us here in this age. By the time tribulation comes around (probably, you never know Biblically speaking) we won't be around to see it. Instead, those who live in Christ will rise and it'll be at that point we'll be able to look around to know what's going down.

Those who are 'mid-tribulationist' if I may invent a new word here, are probably reading what Revelation has to say about the ordeal. In it, there is a great amount of persecution of believers. Not cuss words on TV, but rather brutal beatings and killings for those who refuse to take the mark (or chip) to buy and sell things, worship the beast, etc. until they're called and the rest of the events of the book unfold.

Those who are 'pre-tribulationlists' (inventing another word) are going by 1 Thessalonians. Under the assumption that Thessalonians occurs before the events of Revelations, many reason that Christians will 'miss it' regarding all the terrible disaster to come.

Here's the kicker, none of these events contradict each other. In reading all three, all three mesh. I think what happens is we tend to split hairs and generate bicker-points where in reality there are none. Tribulation means "distress or suffering resulting from oppression or persecution". Does a 'pre-tribulationist' dispute there will be suffereing from oppression and persecution? I certainly hope not, because Matthew and Revelation shows us where that's incorrect. What happens after the suffering? Per both Thessalonians AND Revelation, Christ comes and those who are his go to him. Does stuff happen after the tribulation of believers? You betcha, that's the second half of the book of Revelation. Who is right? Well, all three tribulationists until they start putting things in their own sequential order instead of the Biblical one.

[edit on 9-9-2009 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 02:07 PM
link   
reply to post by calstorm
 


Why couldn't those be new Christians? Also, do you believe in the Millennium? Who will be with Jesus in the Millennial reign if the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast in hell?



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 02:07 PM
link   
I still think that Matthew 24 was a misinterpretation of what Jesus was trying to say. I realize this will sound heretical so I hope no one takes offense.

There are several accounts of Jesus talking to his followers about the second coming. His message usually included the question, 'Why are you worried about the end of the world? You have already been given the gift of eternal salvation so what difference does trouble (tribulation) in this temporal world matter?"

Here is an interesting view from the Urantia book:




As they gathered about the campfire, some twenty of them, Thomas asked: "Since you are to return to finish the work of the kingdom, what should be our attitude while you are away on the Father's business?" As Jesus looked them over by the firelight, he answered: "And even you, Thomas, fail to comprehend what I have been saying. Have I not all this time taught you that your connection with the kingdom is spiritual and individual, wholly a matter of personal experience in the spirit by the faith-realization that you are a son of God? What more shall I say?

"The downfall of nations, the crash of empires, the destruction of the unbelieving Jews, the end of an age, even the end of the world, what have these things to do with one who believes this gospel, and who has hid his life in the surety of the eternal kingdom? You who are God-knowing and gospel-believing have already received the assurances of eternal life. Since your lives have been lived in the spirit and for the Father, nothing can be of serious concern to you. Kingdom builders, the accredited citizens of the heavenly worlds, are not to be disturbed by temporal upheavals or perturbed by terrestrial cataclysms.

"What does it matter to you who believe this gospel of the kingdom if nations overturn, the age ends, or all things visible crash, since you know that your life is the gift of the Son, and that it is eternally secure in the Father? Having lived the temporal life by faith and having yielded the fruits of the spirit as the righteousness of loving service for your fellows, you can confidently look forward to the next step in the eternal career with the same survival faith that has carried you through your first and earthly adventure in sonship with God."



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 02:12 PM
link   

Originally posted by theyreadmymind
Why couldn't those be new Christians? Also, do you believe in the Millennium? Who will be with Jesus in the Millennial reign if the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast in hell?


This is an excellent and often overlooked point. I think we need to ask ourselves if people are going to stop becoming Christians when all Hell breaks loose. Logically, that'd be the time where'd you'd have the most people on their knees.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 02:36 PM
link   
reply to post by saint4God
 


Yeah, I don't know. I honestly don't have an opinion on what is the correct interpretation. Even if I thought I knew, I'd still be unsure if I was overlooking something. I was just giving you some of the arguments I've heard from pre-tribulationists.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 03:27 PM
link   
Christians should be skeptical of accepting religious notions that have not been around very long. Although the idea of tribulation and rapture have been popularized by western personalities, especially in America, people should know that these ideas are generally believed to have began in the late 1800's in Scotland. I won't get too far into it but...Margaret Macdonald, John Darby and Cyrus Scofield all played a part...you be the judge but it's definitely strange to note that in the first 1800 years or so of Christianity these notions are nowhere to be found.

Now there will be a tribulation as Scripture states but it's directed against Christians in general so it baffles me as to how some (pre-tribs) think that Christians will somehow be absent from our own time of trouble! Christ never promised to spare the Church during this trying time.

As for the verses in Matthew, they all speak to the second coming of Christ, Judgment Day when He comes like a thief in the night.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 03:43 PM
link   
Revelation 3:10

10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.


God evacuates the righteous people before he carries out Judgement. Just like he did Sodom and Gamorrah he sent his angels to evacuate Lot and his family and the Angel said he couldn't destroy the city until they were evacuated.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 03:56 PM
link   
My understanding is those that truly believe are taken pre-trib to prevent their suffering.

Those that don't believe or semi-believe are left to endure the tribulation and many will die.

Those that still do not believe after the tribulation are the ones cast into hell. The christians that survive the tribulation are allowed to remain in the new kingdom along with all that were raptured or saved before their death.

Not really any scripture to quote just my understanding of what was taught as I grew up.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 05:01 PM
link   
Revelation Chapter 7 verse 9- states: After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands. Rev. chapter 7 verse 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14. And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (This to me is the Rapture)

Isaiah 26:20 states: Go into your Chambers and close the door until the great indignation is past. This verse tells me we will not be here when the last three and half years of the tribulation begins.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 05:37 PM
link   
reply to post by Keeper of Kheb
 


There were 7 letters to 7 churches, Funny how we pick ourselves to be the one church that will not be "harmed"

I think Christians in 1900 also thought that was them.

Have you looked into the fact that these were 7 Literal letter to churches at the time the letters were written. Because in those days there was Christian persecution too. Maybe they were kept from that hour of trial. and /or Maybe the letters are messages to 7 different types(Categories) of Christians. My reasoning is if you read the letters, they very much saying that a whole church had the same problem or had the same gift. Is that Possible? or rather does it sound like a logical comment?

Think about your own church, can any of these words/letters be said of a whole church? a few people in each church-yes .But take all 7 letters and split up the various types of people and Categorize them, you should be able to match everyone into these 7 Letters.(well that’s if you know them like God does)



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 05:46 PM
link   
reply to post by TAshi11
 


What you quoting is not the Rapture but those who died in the Tribulation for the name of Jesus. You'll find the explanation in Daniel 7 vs 21 and 25. Where the Saints are persecuted and killed for 3 ½ years.

If you die during this period for Jesus and not take upon the mark of the beast you will be rewarded.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 06:08 PM
link   
reply to post by calstorm
 


You are very right on this subject. It is post-trib. Even the pre-trib scripture in 1 thessalonians 4....

"15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."


What is the trumpet of God? It's the 7th trumpet of revelation which ushers in the Kingdom of God and Jesus' second coming.

Even 1 corinthians 15:50-52....

"50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

The last trumpet is the same as the trumpet of God or the 7th trumpet of revelation. Even Matthew 24:29-31 speaks of a trumpet sound when Jesus returns to collect His elect AFTER the tribulation. All three passages speak of the same event... the return of Jesus and the Kingdom of God on earth. Hellfire is not given to unrepentant sinners until the end of the 1000 years of peace on earth when the White Throne Judgement takes place. And it's a 2nd death, not eternal torment..... peace.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 07:25 PM
link   
reply to post by SharkBait
 


Isaiah26:19-21

19. Your dead shall live: Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20. Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,Until the indignation (wrath,rage) is past. 21For behold, the Lord comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: The earth will also disclose her blood, and will no more cover her slain.

I have been told that the last 3 1/2 years is God's wrath upon the unbelievers and the wicked here on earth.



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 07:33 PM
link   
I am a post-trib.

God did not take Noah away from the Earth during the flood. They had to endure, with God's help.

God did not take the Israelites away from the plagues. They had to endure, with God's help.

God did not take Jesus away from the cross. He had to endure, with God's help.

God did not take Paul away from the Roman's, he had to endure, with God's help.


God will not take us away. We have to endure, with His help.


[edit on 9/9/2009 by Lemon.Fresh]



posted on Sep, 9 2009 @ 07:57 PM
link   
reply to post by emsed1
 


I found it to be exactly right. I do not at all worry about these things - I use to in terms of just looking at the world itself. Doesn't really take a bible to look out at the world and know things aren't right. That is in good part what lead me to the father to begin with, and is exactly what I realized.

I see people going crazy about things, and I don't get it. I know right from wrong, and I'll certainly speak up and say if things aren't right. But the amount of worry and fear people have about it - I just don't have.

But anyway, here are some verses to back up the truth in that story you quote, and what people might deem "heretical".



Matthew 10

26Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

27What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


The part about being sons of god, and how people don't understand:



Psalm 82

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


And when pressed about Jesus calling himself a son of god, the above verse is what he quotes - and then he is like what is the big deal - shouldn't you already know this.




John 10

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.




posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 12:08 AM
link   
I agree we should be "afraid", but God did warn us these things were coming so we could be prepared. That way when the time comes, we aren't shouting to the heavens, "Hey God whats up with this, why are we suffering?" God is warning us, "Hey, those last 3 1/2 years are really gonna be the pits, but if you remain faithful, I'll make it worth your while."
I have yet to read anything concerning a 3rd coming of Christ.
On the subject of hell. Is Hell going to be an a literal fiery furnace? I don't think it is. I think Hell will be a form of eternal awareness that you were wrong and its to late. The absence of hope, and an eternal depression. Hell is the absence of God. A spirit can''t be physically tortured. I think it will be more of a mental torture. I have suffered from sever depression before, and the biblical descriptions of hell "weeping and gnashing of teeth." strike me as such.
I don't believe this will be a concern for any one until after the 1000 year reign.



new topics

top topics



 
1
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join