Pre, mid or post tribulation rapture.

reply to post by monkcaw

Exactly so monkcaw. Christians have fallen into error in believing that they're going to be whisked away pre, mid, OR post tribulation. They've corrupted the very meaning of the word "rapture". This is the literal meaning:

rapture

Even the verses being cited as "proof" refer to a time AFTER you die. There will be "rapture" (ecstasy) after we die but not some "get out of tribulation free" card.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


Hello,

I understand that you are a post trib. How do you explain away the verses Isaiah 26:19-21.
Could it possibly be that Rev. chapter 8:1 When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. Could this be when he is sending the saints to there chambers so they won't see what is going to happen on earth (His wrath).

Could the cause of the earthquake in Rev.6:12 be the saints coming out of the ground all over the world?

reply to post by whitewave


Thes.4:16

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

* 4 months ago

Are you suggesting that the magical whisking away of Christians off planet Earth occurred 4 months ago before the 1-6 th seals were opened and that it was camouflaged by an earthquake?

Has anyone here read any history ?

What persuades you to the belief that the Rupture will occur in YOUR lifetime, based on current events ?

reply to post by calstorm


I think you have to look for indicators in these scriptures. For example, the post that refers to Paul's passage in I Thess. is almost identical to the I Corinthian 15 passage, except the latter passage adds, "at the last trumpet". Pre-tribs say this refers to the series of trumpet blasts used in the wilderness, the last trumpet blast meaning "start moving".

However, In Revelation, there are 7 trumpet judgements. The first 6 are dealt with quickly, but the 7th covers two chapters, and uses the interesting phrase "in the days of the sounding of the seventh trumpet". Here, there is a message to the saints that the days are to be accomplished when the dead will be raised and the saints will be rewarded.
Since every person will be judged according to scripture, why should it be hard to believe that saints cannot go through the trumpet judgements? Israel had to cover the lintels of their doors so that they would not fall under the condemnation reserved for the Egyptians. But the act of placing blood on the posts was still judged by God.

Paul tells us in Romans that we are not appointed unto (God's) wrath. The vials or bowls of wrath come after the last trumpet is sounded. If the day of wrath is a day (or very short period of time), it is possible that the church has been withdrawn into the clouds to be with the Lord, and then brought back down at Armageddon. Of course He has brought the saints (souls) in heaven with Him for their reunification with their bodies at the rapture.


At the end of Revelation, Jesus says He brings His rewards with Him. So if the saints are to be rewarded, that will not occur until His return. He also speaks about the "great tribulation" and throughout scripture this time is seen as 3 1/2 years (42 months). It is possible that we have missed out on what Daniel was saying about seven years. Seven years is the period God has designated for His "clock" to start back up. But remember, Jesus said no man knows the day nor the hour of His return. If the rapture occurs at the beginning, it would be possible to calculate precisely this event. So if the 7 years begin on His clock, so to speak, without any outward sign, the result would be a surprise of sorts to the willfully ingnorant.

What we do know is that when the antichrist sits on the throne in Jerusalem (the temple), this happens at the end of the 3 1/2 yrs. But that does not mean the middle of the tribulation, just the middle of the RENEWED peace treaty. Remember, it is the GREAT tribulation, which is 42 months. Daniel says the "little horn" renews a treaty or re-establishes it. Don't look for a new Middle East treaty - just the enforcement of one of the ones that already exists.

I am not sure that any of us can "set our feet in cement" on this, but it helps if you have knowledge of Greek, Hebrew, and history. I do believe we can do what Jesus said, 'When these things begin to come to pass, lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near.'

[edit on 10-9-2009 by skycopilot]

reply to post by whitewave


The word 'rapture' does not occur in the Bible.

I Thessalonians 4:17 says, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..."

The word caught up in Greek is the word "arpagesmetha" and it means to be caught away, as in being snatched (like a purse-snatcher).

You need to understand the original language. Find a Strong's Concordance - it has the words translated in the back.

reply to post by skycopilot


You are correct that it is not in the bible, but it is the word most people use for the catching away.
Trumpets 1-5 have sounded but 6-7 are all we have left.
Why do I think it will happen in our time? Untill this last year I didn't. Never before did I think RFID (the mark of the beast)and the rebuilding of the temple were close to happening, and Never before has the NWO been so close to coming into power.

I believe Isaiah 26:19-21 takes place in between the start of the battle of Armageddon and the the 1k reign.

reply to post by calstorm


It is after the 1000 year reign as you said but the "lake of fire" is a literal place and the bodies that are resurrected in this second resurrection are resurrected in the flesh, not into spirit like those of the first resurrection. That being said, when they are cast into the lake of fire, they will die their second death. Revelation 21:8 states it plain as day as a second death. If you die, are resurrected in the flesh and cast into a lake of fire, do you die again? Of course. You are not body and spirit together. You are body that becomes spirit if God gives you the gift of eternal life. Read about the "transfiguration" of Jesus Christ in the gospels. He literally floated up in the air and his flesh transformed or transfigured into spirit temporarily as a display of being the Son of God. This transformation to spirit is what will happen. Even Jesus spent 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb before resurrecting into a spiritual body. And His fleshly body was gone. If the fleshly body is separate from the spiritual body, why did His fleshly body disappear? He was awakened by God in the flesh and was transfigured from flesh to spirit. This is what will happen to the saints of the first resurrection at Jesus' return. This is what will happen to those in the second resurrection if they repent before God. If they don't repent, God gives a death sentence.... which is a lot more merciful (from a merciful God) than everlasting torment and contempt. The second death is the final death with no hope of a future resurrection because death and the grave are both thrown into the lake of fire as well. This is the true absence from God.... non-existence.

I would tend to fall within the post-tribulation camp.

In the last couple of years or so I have read alot about the Kingdom and what is today termed Amillenialism i.e. the Kindgom of God is now and the 1000 years mentioned in Revelations is now.

I agree with a previous poster who mentioned a little about the origins of the 'rapture' teachings.

I believe that when Jesus returns again the Kingdom will be delivered up to him and he will judge the world at the same time.

I will step back now and attempt to dodge the stones

This is a huge and fascinating subject for Christians.

Oh, and before I leave did you know that Christians are called Israel?
i.e. Israel in the eyes of God, are all those in Christ.

Yes, it is true and right there in your New Testament.

reply to post by skycopilot

Of course He has brought the saints (souls) in heaven with Him for their reunification with their bodies at the rapture.

Do you have scripture to back that assessment up? Nowhere in the bible does it say that the spirit of the saints go to heaven when they die and that they are reunited with their bodies at the rapture. Read the above post and you'll see just what the relationship is with body and spirit.... and that is the biblical view on the subject. I am reminded of the scripture of John 3:13... you know, just a few verses before the most famous passage of the bible?

John 3:13- "No man has ascended into heaven except He who came from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."

Sounds to me like Jesus was the only person to ever enter heaven and rightfully so since He was in heaven before his human birth. The earth was made for humans and it is our home. This is why Jesus rules on earth for 1000 years after His return. The saints jobs are to help Christ rule as kings and priests. That means there will be some who survive the tribulation and armageddon and live on in the 1000 years of peace. After this period of world peace will judgement take place and a new heaven/new earth are created. New Jerusalem falls to earth and heaven and earth unite and we get a literal "Heaven on Earth". AKA: Paradise, Utopia, etc. It's all at the end of Revelation. chapters 20-22.

reply to post by jemima


The problem with that assessment is the fact that revelation explains the 1000 years to be a time of peace when satan is bound and sin is removed from the world for this time period. Also, it is said that this period does not happen until the return of Christ on earth. I have an interesting take on this subject as well. God created everything in 6 days and rested on the 7th (sabbath). In retrospect He gave mankind (after Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil) 6000 years to rule themselves to show that mankind's sinful nature cannot live in peace. It isn't until the 7th millenium that peace is achieved on earth through the leadership of Jesus Christ. This 1000 years of peace could also be looked at as mankind's "sabbath rest".

Originally posted by skycopilot
reply to post by whitewave

 

The word 'rapture' does not occur in the Bible.

I Thessalonians 4:17 says, "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..."

The word caught up in Greek is the word "arpagesmetha" and it means to be caught away, as in being snatched (like a purse-snatcher).

You need to understand the original language. Find a Strong's Concordance - it has the words translated in the back.

I'm not sure where you get the word "arpagesmetha". A google search turns up nothing for that word. My Strong's concordance says "harpazō" for "shall be caught up".

But anyway, the word rapture comes from the latin word rapio (some say it's rapturo) which in turn is just a translation of the greek word for "caught up" in 1 Thes 4:17 as found in the Vulgate.

Thats a logical take on spirit/body/death.

SO are you saying we have roughly another 1,000 years to go before the 1,000 years of peace?

reply to post by calstorm


No. The 1000 years of peace are just around the corner. I'm saying from year 6000 to year 7000 is the millennium of peace and we are nearing year 6000. The bible spans a period of 4000 years from Adam and Eve to Jesus and the first century church. The period of the christian church started nearly 2000 years ago so adding 2000 and 4000 equals 6000. I think the 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation is a time period between man's rule and God's rule on earth and that time is just beyond the horizon. I would look at the European Union as the Beast of Revelation and the Roman Catholic Church as the Harlot Woman riding the beast. Also, the time of God's judgement on earth is to those who have taken the mark of the beast and Revelation talks about the church taken to a place in the wilderness to escape the fall of "babylon the great".

Well i think that ever since it was written we have always been in the "end-times".

reply to post by whitewave


Hello,

I have no clue how 4 months ago got on my post. I didn't put it there. Sorry for the confusion. It puzzles me too.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

God did not take Noah away from the Earth during the flood. They had to endure, with God's help.

But Enoch was taken away. Based on the life spans of his ancestors, Enoch would've been alive for the flood, but God took him.

God did not take the Israelites away from the plagues. They had to endure, with God's help.

Unlike the flood, the judgments that the Israelites endured weren't a global judgment, like the flood was and the Tribulation will be. They were judgments for their idolatry, which God said would happen.

God did not take Jesus away from the cross. He had to endure, with God's help.

Jesus being whisked away would've defeated the purpose, no?

God did not take Paul away from the Roman's, he had to endure, with God's help.

The suffering the Paul endured wasn't a global judgment.

While I lean pre-trib., I think that there are a few things that we all as Christians need to always remember. [I know I forget this from time to time.]

Regardless of the timing of the rapture, or even it's very existence, we have a mission here on Earth. As my professors in college said, "We need to make sure that we're not too heavenly minded to be any earthly good." We need to focus on striving after God—loving him with all our heart, mind, and strength—and spreading Christ's gospel. That is what's important, the rapture isn't.

The Bible is actually really unclear about the rapture. Each position has its strong and weak points. We need to always remember that and not be to sure about our own view. Afterall, we're only fallible man and have a tendency to be wrong! The rapture is meant to encourage us, not divide us. And it most certainly shouldn't be viewed as a get out of jail free card. God chose us. We didn't choose him.

Whenever the rapture happens there is still work to be done. We need to be living for Christ until he returns, or calls us home.

Maranatha, my brethren!

[Oh, I saw Matthew used earlier in the discussion of the raptuer. Something I wanted to say is that, the rapture is for the church. Since the church wasn't around when Jesus was (it came sometime in Acts), Jesus in Matthew 24-25 is simply talking about his second coming, not the rapture.]

My husband and I are both pre-trib. For the best (in both our opinions, anyway) discussion on current events and how end-times prophecies are being fulfilled, be sure to check out Bible Prophecy Today. You will see biblical support for each viewpoint. I am sure you will find at least one teacher that makes sense to you. We don't always agree with everyone on the website, but we do learn a lot! That is saying something, since we are both students of the Bible and have been since 1978, when we both accepted Jesus as our personal savior.

reply to post by calstorm


Hi - I believe in a mid to post-tribulation rapture. More toward post. Mid at the earliest. Scripture doesn't support any other interpretation IMHO.