Jesus as a blood Sacrifice. Pagan Conspiracy?

reply to post by badmedia
hello, bad media!

The 2nd death that is the wages of sin

so if i understand you right, you believe it is the 2nd death that is the wages of sin? spiritual death.
because we all experience the first(natural) death this can not be what
God meant.

Genisis 2-17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it. for in the day that thou eatest there of, thou shalt surly
DIE. (physical death)

so what would've happened if they rebuked satan, and obeyed God?
they surly would not die.
by this passage it is easily understood that, when God created Adam n Eve.
he did not create them with the curse of death upon them.
they disobeyed God why?

Genisis 3-4 and the serpant said unto the woman. ye shall not surly DIE.

straight out called God a liar, knowing the fruit wasn't poisonous.
though they didn't keel right over, in that day, along with their new found
knowledge of evil, and disobedience to God, sin. the curse of DEATH was now upon them. the wages of sin is death, is a law of the uiniverse we live in.
it was out of Gods hands at that point.
just imo i think this broke Gods heart. which is what the serpent wanted.
they were then cast out, away from the tree of life.
so was God lying.? not at all.

Genesis 5-5 and all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years and he WHAT? he DIED?

Genesis 5-8 and all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years and he WHAT? he DIED.

Genesis 5-11 and all the days of Enos were nine hundred and 5 years and
he WHAT? he DIED .

it goes on like this from Cainan 910 yrs and he DIED. to Mahalaleel 895 yrs AND HE DIED. to Jared 962 yrs and he DIED. then Enoch lived 365 yrs
and he was not, for God took him. and on after that. noah lived 950 yrs
and he DIED.
these accounts are written to emphasize the fact we believed the lie.
and we didn't have to die. after Noah, mans life span no longer exceeds 120 yrs.
see my point?

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


I'm aware of the 4 levels and don't disagree with them in general. In fact, it is because of the levels that I generally don't create threads, only respond to them. That allows me to get on the level they are talking about usually. However, here is why I see Christianity as well as you being stuck in the literal.

The literal is a single expression of the understanding. So I see you taking the 1 literal expression and pushing it as the only expression. It's not that I disagree with the literal, but I do not not see how one with understanding on a higher level could then stick to just the literal.

I find this easier to explain in terms of math. Math is like the holy, in that it is also understanding, and is an understanding we all have - so it is easy for me to demonstrate what is not understanding.

So the what I see you and Jesus saying is in terms of math like you telling me 1+1=2. Now, I can and will agree all day long that 1+1=2 is true. I know and understand why that is a true statement. When I look at Jesus I know and understand he is a true expression, a true statement. Not because I have accepted it, but because I understand.

But when when 2+2=4 is expressed, Christians and others have a fit. They have only accepted that 1+1=2, they don't actually understand math. If they did actually understand math, they would also see that 2+2=4 is a true expression.

So when you take "Jesus", in the year "33BC" in "Israel" and among the "Jews". This is a literal expression. I see the things in "" as only variables. No different than the 1's and 2's.

To focus on these variables is IMO to miss the point. What actually matters is the understanding and things that are being expressed. Would it matter if "Jesus" was instead "Fred", "33BC" was "1850" and "Israel" was "America" and "Jews" was instead "Christians"? No, if it is the truth being expressed, then it is the truth not because of the variables, but because of the understanding and expression itself.

I gained my understanding from the father. That understanding did not contain the literal part - at all. Instead of the literal, I was given the understanding directly, and then shown that the rest are just variables. It was 3 months later when I started to read Jesus - and it was a quote here and there that got my attention.

So when I read Jesus, I don't accept him because some man told me it's the word of god, because society told me too and so forth. When I read Jesus, I see the understanding being expressed. I recognize the father and the understanding of the father in him. It is for that reason and that reason alone that I even take to it.

If one understands things and has the higher levels you speak of - then how can they not know see this? How can they preach and say that only this 1 single expression is and can be true? Especially considering - Jesus tells people to look not at him, but what he expresses and does to see that he is telling truth in John 10.

John 10

33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

How do we know the father is within him - because of what he does and expresses.

The father gave me this understanding and told me I had to be the change I wanted to see. If I was a theif - how could I expect to live in a world without theives? If I try to push my will onto other people, how can I expect to live in a world with freedom? And so forth. How does one love each other - by giving them freedom. If you love something, you set it free.

As such, it is up to each and everyone one of us to become a true expression. To follow the example or gain the understanding(which is available to anyone who seeks it). And as you start to do this - you will find the exact things Jesus dealt with are what you also will deal with.

But then in Christianity, it's this 1 literal expression and only this 1 literal expression. And then people are taught - they could never express and do such a thing, and that by the death and sacrifice of this expression and truth - they can live. No, it is not true.

Because this world has sacrificed and killed the truth, it lives in the lie. Turn on the TV if you want proof. And it will continue to be like this until people start to find salvation in the life of the truth, rather than the death of the truth and start becoming a true expression - because how can you expect to live in the truth if we continue to be part of the lie ourselves?

reply to post by randyvs

Matthew 10

28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It is not possible for us to know who has died the 2nd death, and who hasn't. All we are able to see is the 1st death. However to say Jesus as a being is still alive and so forth, is to say he hasn't experienced the 2nd death.

Not that I think he should or anything, but that to me it shows evidence that he showed people how not to die the 2nd death, and that by following his example and keeping the commandments, the 2nd death is avoided.

reply to post by badmedia
ok, so we won't address anything in my first post . no problem.a more direct approach." the wages of sin is death"( i'm thinking someome in mathematics will come up w/ an equation for this someday"]this has everything to do w/ physics.

hence " a law of the universe " it is not a declaration by God.
speaking of the universe God made.
so your 1st death only occurs when sin is introduced.
think failsafe

the second is spiritual death.
understand there is no justice for sins commited, in your repentance
from future sins.
that's what Christ did on the Cross served Gods justice.
you do believe he went up on the cross don't you?
john the Baptist " behod the lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the
whole world"

It is not possible for us to know who has died the 2nd death, and who hasn't

wrong my good man.

Rev 20=6
blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection on such the second death holds no power.

no one as of yet has died the second death.

Go back and do you r research

looks like this might have been good advice.
no star, no flag, no cookie.

[edit on 10-9-2009 by randyvs]

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by badmedia

 

ok, so we won't address anything in my first post . no problem.a more direct approach." the wages of sin is death"( i'm thinking someome in mathematics will come up w/ an equation for this someday"]this has everything to do w/ physics.

What was there to reply to that I missed? Plus, what of all the things I mentioned in my OP that were ignored?

that's what Christ did on the Cross served Gods justice.
you do believe he went up on the cross don't you?

That is not Justice. You are turning Jesus into a whipping boy, where he dies for your sins. Is it justice if you die for my sins? Is that what you call justice? The man who doesn't sin is killed by men who do sin. And based on the man who didn't sins death, you say you are saved and that is justice?

john the Baptist " behod the lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the
whole world"

Yes, by following his example. Thus why he says those who believe will do as he does, thus why he says to walk the path, thus why he says keep the commandments, thus why he gives understanding - which is needed in order to keep the commandments outside those with good hearts where it is simply their nature.

Just does not say he is come to be a sacrifice. He doesn't tell the rich man who approaches him ANY of this sacrificial ritualistic things you are talking. He tells the rich man to go walk the path. He says he has not come for the righteous, but the bring sinners to repentance. He and the OT both say - I desire mercy and not sacrifice. But still you tell me the father desired human sacrifice, and you call this barbaric thing "Justice"? The only thing that benefits by the sacrifice of truth is the lie.

wrong my good man.

Rev 20=6
blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection on such the second death holds no power.

no one as of yet has died the second death.

You've taken things so badly out of context, I'm not even sure how to reply. My entire reason for bringing up the 2nd death in the first place was to show that it was the 2nd death that were the wages of sin - that all died the first death. That Jesus did not die the 2nd death - which would be the wages for sin. So how could he have paid that price? How does what you've posted change that?

Go back and do you r research

looks like this might have been good advice.
no star, no flag, no cookie.


I could care less about a star, a flag or a cookie. If I wanted those things, I would sit here and post to peoples pre-existing biases. It's easy to get those things and they are of no value.