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Jesus as a blood Sacrifice. Pagan Conspiracy?

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posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 10:36 AM
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So, the price of sins is death. Jesus talks about 2 kinds of death. 1 is the death of the flesh, one is the death of the soul.



Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


So, he says not to at all fear the 1st death, the death of the body, but the 2nd death is to be feared, the death of the soul.

The 2nd death that is the wages of sin. Unless we are too believe that no person at all has ever truly believed - because the 1st death is a part of life, we all do it.

But if this is the case, then how does the death of Jesus in the flesh - the 1st death, pay the ransom/price for other people which is to be paid in the 2nd death?

Jesus does not die the 2nd death. So doesn't that mean the actual price hasn't been paid? But there is more:

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Atonement. I have done some research and in the OT it turns out that the sacrifice is considered the lowest form of atonement. And that even in the OT, it only ever actually atones for the sins the person was unaware they had committed. The highest form of atonement in the OT is to repent for your sins, which means to fix/change your mistakes/ways. David for example is forgiven when he repents after sending the man to die in war to get his wife. Sacrifice would not have been appropriate or have worked in such a case.

Sacrifice is actually generally looked down upon in the OT. It is warned for people not to get caught up in blood sacrifices. When Jesus says "go learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice", he is actually quoting a verse in Hosea 6:6.



Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.


So not only do we have the above problem, but also the lowest form of sacrifice of the time, is suddenly become the highest form, and now even a human sacrifice at that.

How does this belief in the sacrifice come about? What are it's roots? It's paganism. Pagans of the time were huge on sacrifice. Even so far as human sacrifice. Coincidentally(or not IMO), this is basically the Roman religion of the time. Sacrifice was huge part of their beliefs.

This in itself might be considered coincidence, until you start to take into account all the other things based on paganism. Sunday worship instead of Saturday. Christmas is the winter solstice, where the sun dies, stays for 3 days and comes back(sure everyone has seen and knows about that by now). Easter is the rebirth of the sun and so forth. These are all pagan holidays.

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The more I research these things, the more I am seeing this manipulation. Jesus never presents himself to people as a sacrifice. Why doesn't Jesus tell people he has come to die for their sins? When the rich man approaches Jesus, Jesus doesn't tell him that he need not worry, because he has come to die for his sins. He tells that rich man to go walk the path.

Instead of Jesus telling people he has come to be a human sacrifice, he tells the people:



Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Sinners to repentance just happens to be the highest form of atonement in the OT. And a Christian will tell me that even the righteous need Jesus, you either accept Jesus died for your sins, or you go to hell.

By telling people it is a sacrifice for you, then it manipulates people into thinking they don't have to keep the commandments because it's impossible for them to do it. What a great way to deceive people into walking a path of death and destruction - because after all they are saved so long as they believe Jesus died for their sins.

And when you look at the history of Christianity, isn't that what we see? Yes, I realize the others do bad things too, and that not all Christians do or believe bad things. But the form of Christianity and the sacrifice we have today is based on

But doesn't it make a bit more sense that he came to give people understanding on how to follow the commandments properly in order to avoid the 2nd death, and the reason he did not experience the 2nd death is because of the path he walked. And by following him, it means you are keeping the commandments, repenting for your sins and fixing your mistakes?

Wouldn't the world be a better place if being a Christian meant you acted like Jesus?

Turns out, that is exactly what Jesus actually says:



John 14

12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Looks like a conspiracy to change the purpose and understanding of Jesus by a Pagan influence. A religion in the name of Christ, which gains power and political appeal and then proceeds to kill anyone who doesn't go along with their version of things, their books, their understanding. And not only kill people, but burn them alive in front of the public to ensure fear of the public.

Why is it that Christians are generally so unlike Jesus?

Thoughts and Debunks?




posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 11:03 AM
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Originally posted by badmedia
Looks like a conspiracy to change the purpose and understanding of Jesus by a Pagan influence. A religion in the name of Christ, which gains power and political appeal and then proceeds to kill anyone who doesn't go along with their version of things, their books, their understanding. And not only kill people, but burn them alive in front of the public to ensure fear of the public.

Why is it that Christians are generally so unlike Jesus?

Thoughts and Debunks?


Well, I used to be Christian and I had a hard time swallowing the pill they were giving me. I did a lot of research and realized the many influences in Christian dogma. Christianity does have a HUGE pagan influence in it. This was also by design. Here's my take:

Romans had a history of invading other countries and then incorporating them into the Empire, while leaving the local cultures and religions alone. In fact, they would often blend the local religions into popular culture and religion as a way of helping the conquored people to assimilate -- Social engineering at its best.

As Christianity began to spread across Europe, this Roman tradition was continued. Instead of slaughtering people who refused to leave the ways of their ancestors, the Christian leaders comprimised and adapted the dogma to the local religions, Christianity at the time of Yule, for example. Easter at the time of Oester.

As for the supposed sacrifice of Jesus, well, the story goes back eons. A god king who is sacrificed to save its people from damnation is a common theme in old religions. So much so, that it really makes one wonder how much of the NT was a reporting of facts on the ground and how much was a re-telling of old stories.

For the record, I now identify myself as pagan. I am universe-centric and believe that we are of the universe in all levels and all dimensions. I don't really follow on ritual, although I still celebrate the time of lights and giving of gifts at Yule.



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 11:36 AM
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Sacrifices were made as early as the time of Adam and Eve. Not included in the Catholic bible but just the same one of the ancient writings which have as much validity as any ancient script, The Gospel of Adam and Eve show such sacrifices.

Jesus' death was the ultimate sacrifice. Gave his earthly life for all. He was sent for this one purpose although he lived and taught during his time here.

As for paganism which has entered into the so called Christian religion, there was nothing pagan taught during the time of Christ. It has crept in slowly. Can you imagine, Conspiracy? This still doesn't effect the real or true Church, which has no Buildings or organizations. Most people who really don't know Jesus don't realize that no organization on earth represents the true Church.

Please quit looking at Earthly organizations or so called Christians(who really don't believe in the power of God and Jesus) to Categorize us all.



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 11:40 AM
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CLEARIFY
What is ment when people say he died for us is HE COULD OF DESTROYED EARTH WHY THEY PUT him on the CROSS EASILY BUT HE DIDNT he left instead till we get ready for his second return. THATS IT FOLKS HE COULD OF DESTROYED US BUT HE LET US HAVE EARTH CAUSE HE KNEW WE WERE DUMB.
We still have to pay for our own sinz.

[edit on 9/2/09 by Ophiuchus 13]



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 12:02 PM
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interesting, S&F for putting a conspiracy in CiR.



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 12:10 PM
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The problem with your conjecture, as has been stated SO many times on here before, if that Christians erradicated pagans. The christian church made it their mission to heathenize and destroy all earthly religions. They took pagan traditions and made them their own.

This is why you see the ideologies cross-not because of a pagan conspiracy.



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 12:19 PM
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It's paganism. Pagans of the time were huge on sacrifice. Even so far as human sacrifice. Coincidentally(or not IMO), this is basically the Roman religion of the time. Sacrifice was huge part of their beliefs.


Im not sure about that. I may be wrong but im pretty sure that "Pagan" is a word that was used to refer to all religions that were not christian or jewish. That is a pretty large group and it would be hard to make an accurate general statement that would be true amongst all pagans.



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 12:21 PM
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Originally posted by zaiger



It's paganism. Pagans of the time were huge on sacrifice. Even so far as human sacrifice. Coincidentally(or not IMO), this is basically the Roman religion of the time. Sacrifice was huge part of their beliefs.


Im not sure about that. I may be wrong but im pretty sure that "Pagan" is a word that was used to refer to all religions that were not christian or jewish. That is a pretty large group and it would be hard to make an accurate general statement that would be true amongst all pagans.


Pagan is any earth based religion. Buddhism is considered pagan, as is wicca, as are any shaman religions...basically, if you didnt believe in a mythical bearded guy shaking his finger at you from up high, you were a pagan, and a heathen.



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 12:22 PM
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reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic
 


Yeah that sounds about right.



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 12:28 PM
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1. The sacrifice
Jesus was killed as the spotless lamb for the sins of the world. Willingly, blamelessly until the time He was risen. Look-up the meaning of the spotless lamb.

2. Pagan tradition.
The pagan traditions came from the Catholic church. This is an entirely separate issue than what you are discussing.

3. Other sacrifices.
Could the person who referenced the idea of sacrifice of God or king going back long before Christianity please post your references. You are very misguided. Post those you believe are relevant and I'll help you sort it out.

4. Why aren't Christians more like Jesus
Because we are imperfect regular human beings just like everyone else. While we try to do our best, we are still who we are. Hence the quote by Jesus that he came not for the healthy but for the sick. ie. We recognize our need for Christ.



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by JustG


2. Pagan tradition.
The pagan traditions came from the Catholic church. This is an entirely separate issue than what you are discussing.



You are going to have to ellaborate on this, as it is completely false and I'd love to see where you are getting these lies from.

Pagan religions pre-date christianity by thousands of years.

Christmas just happens to coincide with pagan solstice holidays.

Easter just happens to coincide with pagan fertility holidays(heck, they even use the same symbol the pagans did-the bunny)

Christians call Beltaine "May day"

Christians celebrate Halloween, which just happens to fall right in line with Samhain.

Chrisitans celebrate groundhogs day on Imbolc

Do I need to go on?



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 01:49 PM
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Wow.... just wow.... absolutely shocking.

I have to admit that I can't agree with it being a (planned) pagan conspiracy, but I have to agree with you on the rest.

Especially because Jesus himself says (in Matthew 25:31-46)he will judge like this:

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.


And he also says (in John 15):

34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

(I like paraphrasing this verse: It means: If 'all men' (and women) don't see that someone is a loving person, then they are NOT his disciple and that means(Matthew 25:46)

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

(Don't forget to feel genuinely sorry for the next 'christian' you see that has hate in their eyes. They believe they have eternal life and there is nothing any of us can do...)

Jesus also says: (Matthew 7)

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. [...] 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

I'm finding more and more quotes, but I'll leave it at that....

Even as a professed ex-christian: I'm shocked!

Oh well...
Love and blessings @ all,
Samuel



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia
How does this belief in the sacrifice come about? What are it's roots? It's paganism. Pagans of the time were huge on sacrifice. Even so far as human sacrifice. Coincidentally(or not IMO), this is basically the Roman religion of the time. Sacrifice was huge part of their beliefs.


I think you mean heathenism rather than paganism.

Paganism is the generic name for many religions that began pre-Jesus. Neopagan is for the many religions that started post-Jesus or at the time of Jesus. Paganism is generally seen as polytheist/pantheist while neopagan is generally seen as monotheism derived from earlier paganism

Sacrifice is a general virtue in paganism, so it would be a mistake to pinpoint it as a certain thing offered, such as one's flesh. It would be better to pinpoint the exact religion that would require such flesh sacrifice than to mock paganism in general.



Thoughts and Debunks?


Consider how easily pagans are considered heathens, then you'll know where the real conspiracy exists.



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 02:05 PM
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Originally posted by badmedia

How does this belief in the sacrifice come about? What are it's roots? It's paganism. Pagans of the time were huge on sacrifice. Even so far as human sacrifice. Coincidentally(or not IMO), this is basically the Roman religion of the time. Sacrifice was huge part of their beliefs.




Do you know what pagan means? It is anyone, from anywhere, who beleived in polytheism, shamanism, or the earth gods/goddesses. Go back and do you r research.

Saying sacrifice has it's roots in paganism is like saying war has its roots in christianity. It is a COMPLETELY false, blanket generalization that only shows you know not of what you speak.



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 02:39 PM
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Well don't flame the guy too hard. Maybe he just needs to clraify what he means by pagan. He did take the time to write it for us, give him a chance to clear up this misunderstanding.



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 02:56 PM
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When was the last time 'pagans' have ever conspired to do anything? Pagans are literally nature worshipers. And typically do not have any hierarchical structure....I do not follow your logical reasoning on this one.



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 03:08 PM
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This thread is hilarious. The OP started off with some information showing how the "sacrifice" concept was infused into christianity by other non-christian sources, but it all ends up with people arguing in defense of "Paganism", something that the OP didn't really even attack.

If I am right, what the OP means is that this is a conspiracy that involved infusion of Pagan (at the time Roman) ideals into Christianity. Not that Pagans are responsible for a secret conspiracy against christians.



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by babloyi
This thread is hilarious. The OP started off with some information showing how the "sacrifice" concept was infused into christianity by other non-christian sources, but it all ends up with people arguing in defense of "Paganism", something that the OP didn't really even attack.

If I am right, what the OP means is that this is a conspiracy that involved infusion of Pagan (at the time Roman) ideals into Christianity. Not that Pagans are responsible for a secret conspiracy against christians.


You're missing my point. The OP said this was a pagan conspiracy. Truth be told, it was a christian one, as a way to draw in those that they could not erradicate.



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 03:15 PM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


I dont think people were defending "pagans". We are just trying to clear up what the OP meant by pagan. It is such a general term you might as well say the conspiracy of people under 30.



posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 03:32 PM
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You both misunderstood what I said.

I had posted my understanding of the OP's argument. "Pagan Conspiracy" not in the sense of "A conspiracy perpetuated by Pagans", (definitely not anymore, but perhaps right at the beginning), but instead "A conspiracy that involves ideas drawn from Paganism".

If you are going to ask "Which Pagans?", the response will most obviously be "those pagans that place such a high value on sacrifice".



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