Jesus as a blood Sacrifice. Pagan Conspiracy?

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Yeah, that is pretty much how I feel. There is a deeper purpose and meaning to things.

I wish more people understood. When you understand it just makes so much sense, and it's not like it's really hidden, people just don't think to look/seek. In this way, religion and beliefs becomes a lock on the doors, as the person thinks they have found it, and because of that they don't seek for deeper things.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


Anything literal is an expression of understanding. It is the understanding being expressed that is the point of it. So you gain that understanding, and then you become an expression of that as well.

Thus:

Psalm 111: 10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

But what happens is people focus on the literal, but they don't understand. It's the difference in being able to repeat 1+1=2(literal) and knowing how to add(understanding).

Originally posted by badmedia

I'm not saying he is not capable of things. But I just know from experiencing the 2nd birth myself that the virgin birth is of the soul and the father - to which there is no equal.

That and the sacrifice is part of what I see as a larger manipulation. Where Jesus is made into something that you can not ever be and so forth. But the truth is, Jesus was just like you - the difference was he knew the father that was within him. This both puts people down, but also creates the notion that the father is an external thing, which is required for the so called "anti-christ".

Because he had truth, understanding and wisdom, he is a physical manifestation of those thing. The last supper for example, that is straight out of Proverbs, where Jesus is playing the part of wisdom, and giving those at the table understanding.

All are children of god, not just Jesus.

Which one finds out upon the "2nd birth", as you then know the father within you. Finding the father is the entire point.

It's a manipulation from understanding into church doctrine and religion. This is why Christians are so unlike Jesus, and why people are rejecting the things. If they were instead shown and seen true understanding, then these things would not be a problem.

I agree with you, that the highest form of atonement is found in repentance. From the beginning to the very end of the Bible (Revelations) it's the one thing constantly called for by God and it's the one thing people continually fail to factor in to the crises' that they are going through at any given moment. We celebrate his birth in the wrong month and worse than that is the fact, that Christianity has changed the Sabbath to all day Sunday, from it's original form of sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.

I agree that we are all sons and daughters of the living God. I know the living Father lives in me, just like he did in Jesus. I, too, have had the experience of the second birth. But why won't you afford Mary, the same respect, that I'm showing you when it comes to what the scriptures say she experienced. I would bet a hundred bucks, that if me and you compared notes as to what we each experienced during this second birthing process - our stories will be very different. In the same way, Mary's is different because a person can only receive what God gives them and what knowledge he is willing to impart to them.

You are not saying he is capable of doing certain things just that His power/energy/life force itself is incapable of doing the things that Mary experienced in her "alone" time with him.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


There is no reason for it. It's not really prophecy, and as nobody could see it, it's not really a sign either.

It matches up more with astrology and all that stuff than the true understanding. To me, it's just more of that influence changing and manipulating things.

A lot of different things come into play in the "Jesus concept" (if we choose to look at it from a comparative-religion/mythology viewpoint rather than a devotional one). Two major ones:

-Sacrifice: a constant theme in Middle-Eastern, Egyptian, and Mesopotamian religion...in short, throughout the known world. The Sacrifice of Christ at one stroke both encapsulates the ideas behind sacrifice itself in general (propitiation to the Gods, atonement, etc.) and removes the need for any further "real" sacrifce of men or beasts, since Christ's sacrifice alone is said to be sufficient for those who accept Him.

-The "dying god" mythos: In Egypt, Horus was torn to pieces and then resurrected by his sister/wife Isis. In Mesopotamia, Inana descended into the underworld to confront her shadowy sister Ereshkigal, but when she left the laws of the cosmos demanded she find someone to replace her there, since one can never leave the underworld after entering it. In Greece and Rome, Demeter barganed with the lord of the Underworld to release her beautiful daughter Persesephone...but only for a half year. All these have to do with the idea of Harvest...that at some times the "god" arrives, bringing the growth of crops and agriculture, and then he/she must "die" for a time, descening to the underworld in the post-harvest season when the fields cannot grow. It was a way of dealing with and explaining the agricultural cycle. The Jesus story is another dying-and-resurrected God....a theme that would be familiar to just about everyone in the area and help early Christianity to spread.



[edit on 9/3/09 by silent thunder]

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


Hello again Myrtales

If Jesus was at birth born of the Virgin Spirit...then what need would there be for him to repent (be baptized)?

Just curious for your thoughts on this...thanks for conversing always.

LV

reply to post by silent thunder


Dont forget the Krishna that was very active and fresh right there in Rome.

Was reading about Krishna today...amazing how many beliefs revolved around the exact same ideas!! Like a revolving wheel giving new names and places.

I always found it odd that here comes the true God in the OT (so the claim goes) but yet all of the traditions and practices were old. Made no sense to me.

reply to post by badmedia


There may be another kind of sacrifice not quite being considered, maybe. You can look at it either literally or not.

Let me explain with these heathcare issues. I have friends that are strong in the tea parties, so they send me their advise on healthcare reform. I don't mind as long as they don't get negative about it. However, I get these kind of posts... well let me quote them directly and I'll leave names out. I'll end with my reply to them and others for something to consider about sacrofice (kind of related to this topic despite the healthcare issue itself).

This first one you might have seen go around recently as many people copy and pasted:

No one should die because they cannot afford health care and no one should go broke because they get sick. If you agree, please post this as your status for the rest of the day.

So someone else copy-n-pasted that, yet added some more to it:

No one should die because they cannot afford health care, and no one should go broke because they get sick. If you agree, please DONATE MONEY TO THIS CAUSE AND DON'T TRY AND FORCE EVERYONE ELSE TO GIVE THEIR MONEY IF THEY DON'T AGREE WITH YOUR PLAN FOR DOING IT.

That's kind of like analogues to "don't force you beliefs/religion on me."

Someone else posted another comment to the first quote above:

No one should die because a bureaucrat decided their life was to costly to save. Health care is not a right, it is a privilage and if you care about your health and your family's health, you forgo the big screen T.V, cable internet, drugs or whatever else you needlessly spend money on and purchase a health care plan! If you eat Mcdonald's every ... day and treat your body like hell, why should I be responsible for their healthcare!

Finally, I posted a reply and because I read through this thread it made me think to reply in this way

Some people think there is always money to buy a health care, or they think there is no reason why one can't afford it. They see themselves successful and figure others aren't because laziness. They think others can sacrifice more and more ...-- even when nothing left to sacrifice... unless they sacrifice their life. That, really is what people that don't agree to the universal health care want... sacrifice... death.

You don't have to believe in Jesus when the questions begs: didn't Jesus sacrifice himself to stop this nonsense? Do the people who want others not to have universal healthcare to sacrifice themselves like Jesus? See where this is headed!

I think you'll get the gist of my idea there.

It just kind of amazes me to see the same people that would preach Jesus and literal sacrifice to us would also support such sacrifice even when they said Jesus died so no one else has to go through it like Jesus. I asked myself -- "conspiracy" or just "ignorance?"

If others in this thread are going to bring up deeper issues of the bible not directly related to sacrifice, like the question of the power of God... then I don't see it being off-topic to bring up the healthcare issue like above as it relates to sacrifice. This makes a good impact to ponder on virtue.

[edit on 3-9-2009 by dzonatas]

Originally posted by LeoVirgo


Dont forget the Krishna that was very active and fresh right there in Rome.

Right you are.Plutarch and other Greco-Roman types were well aware of India and much of its philosophy was added to the great synchretic stew that burbled so nicely away in late-antquity at Alexandria and other centers of learning and speculation.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Was reading about Krishna today...amazing how many beliefs revolved around the exact same ideas!!

There are several possible reasons why such similar ideas kept coming up all over the world. One possibility is that they are just local manifestations of the same idea, that is inherent within every culture and individual.

Another possibility is that such ideas are similar because sprang from certain frames of mind induced, shall we say, in ways we are no longer allowed to talk about on ATS.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

 

Hello again Myrtales

If Jesus was at birth born of the Virgin Spirit...then what need would there be for him to repent (be baptized)?

LV

Hi LeoVirgo,

You are right. He never did anything, that he needed to repent for and at first it might seem strange, that he would go down into the water but he had to be baptized by John - for it was John who was told to baptize the people and to look for the one whom he saw the spirit rest upon. He saw it and he declared it. It is all a part of the "way." Jesus said "Follow me." Jesus said "I am the way."

The way to where? The abode of light, my friend.

((God to Job)) "What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? " Job 38:19

Mal 3:1 -
"See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the Lord Almighty."

Isa 48:17 -
"This is what the Lord says-- your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: "I am the Lord your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go."

Pr 19:2 -
"It is not good to have zeal without knowledge, nor to be hasty and miss the way."

Jer 6:16 -
"This is what the Lord says: "Stand at the crossroads and look; ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is, and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But you said, 'We will not walk in it.'"

Isaiah 35:1-8
"The desert and the parched land will be glad; the wilderness will rejoice and blossom. Like the crocus, it will burst into bloom; it will rejoice greatly and shout for joy. The glory of Lebanon will be given to it, the splendor of Carmel and Sharon; they will see the glory of the Lord, the splendor of our God. Strengthen the feeble hands, steady the knees that give way; say to those with fearful hearts, "Be strong, do not fear; your God will come, he will come with vengeance; with divine retribution he will come to save you."

"Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy. Water will gush forth in the wilderness and streams in the desert. The burning sand will become a pool, the thirsty ground bubbling springs. In the haunts where jackals once lay, grass and reeds and papyrus will grow. And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness."

Jesus set the example to get water baptism. It is just part of the way. Then when a person truly repents, they will start to hear Jesus' voice and he will show up and open the spiritual doorway (for he holds the keys of David, Death & Hades and what he opens no one can shut and what he shuts no one can open) and come in and sup with you and you with him and then one will understand the how, when, where and why, as to God and the Son taking up residence in them.

There is no other way. But if a person is not cognizant of the spiritual senses (seeing, hearing, taste, smell and touch) and doesn't really try to awaken said senses - he will come like a thief and you won't even know he was there. You are just another virgin without oil.

Originally posted by zaiger
reply to post by helen670

 

The christmas tree comes from germanic pagan practices and has nothing to do with christianity, the easter bunny comes from the pagan god Ēastre which was their god of fertility.

Hi zaiger/

Pascha is the correct term for the remembrance of the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ!
EASTER is not the correct word,it was changed so that people would argue the point of it being pagan in origin!
So far, they have succeeded to make some people believe that Pascha should not be celebrated because of it's significance to paganism!

ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

 

Hello again Myrtales

If Jesus was at birth born of the Virgin Spirit...then what need would there be for him to repent (be baptized)?

Just curious for your thoughts on this...thanks for conversing always.

LV

Hi Leo. hope you don't mind me answering,

There was no need for Jesus Christ to be baptised, but this was done in order for humanity to believe in the Baptism of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit!
Remember that John the Baptist said that he himself was not worthy to even tie the laces of Jesus Christ.

Fulfillment of Old Testament as told by the Prophets of the Old Testament!

ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

 

Anything literal is an expression of understanding. It is the understanding being expressed that is the point of it. So you gain that understanding, and then you become an expression of that as well.

Thus:

Psalm 111: 10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

But what happens is people focus on the literal, but they don't understand. It's the difference in being able to repeat 1+1=2(literal) and knowing how to add(understanding).

I think you are sensing that I am hung up on literal translations and that is so for from the truth. I'm just saying that any story in the Bible is first told in a literal way because there are things hidden and concealed in what is being revealed. It is why we are all at different levels in our spirituality.

Jewish tradition holds that there are four distinct types of comprehension levels when studying.

1. peshot - (literally) literal meaning of text

2. remez - (allegorically) veiled meanings the text hints at but doesn't make explicit

3. derash - (morally) this interpretation is derived from reading between the lines

4. hod - (mystical) - estoric or mystical meaning (preferred method for the Zohar in Kabbalah).

Though the literal translation of something may not be the root it IS the first thing we see. It can not be dismissed.

I now interpret at the hod level. All I am pointing out to you is that you talk as if you are interpreting at the derash level and LeoVirgo sounds as if she is still in remez.

It's not one or the other interpretation that is right - it is a learning process as a whole.

Let me just add that the initial letters of 'peshet, remez, derash & hod' make up the word 'Pardes' which translates to paradise.

And paradise is what we are all looking for!


[edit on 3-9-2009 by Myrtales Instinct]

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
And paradise is what we are all looking for!

Sometimes you don't know what you got until it is gone.

Anybody want to pay for the air they breath? Every breath you take...

reply to post by dzonatas


I can't say much about OT posts in general. I'm probably one of the worse in doing it.

Now, Jesus does lay his life down for others. He could have kept his mouth shut, followed the commandments and lived a regular old life. IMO, doing that is his grace. He pays a hefty price all to help others, and he is killed for trying to help others etc.

If they killed him over it, what do you think they will do with what he says? They killed him to maintain their power, and they have maintained that power to this day. It is obvious when you look around. It is they who are saved by his death. I honestly think the sacrifice is "Satanic".

If it was being presented in a form of he did what he did to bring understanding to people despite knowing what would happen to him, then I wouldn't have much to say. But it's that they believe it was his actual death that saves them that I disagree with.

As for the healthcare issue, it is a non-issue to me. All anyone is really talking about is a symptom. What people need to focus on is the cause. What people need to do is ask - why can't these people afford healthcare? Is it really because of rising costs? It's not.

It's all about living with the symptoms rather than finding the cure/cause. And I'm not talking about the medicine or diseases, but the system itself.

We are economic slaves. Those people can not afford healthcare because the people have been robbed of their wealth. Literally robbed. The entire "debt based" economy is a scam. It's not capitalism, it's barbaric where power rules and decides all. There is a reason why the poor get poorer and the rich get richer, and it has nothing to do with laziness.

These were the money changers Jesus dealt with. Those who charge usury and are thieves. IMO, if someone is not talking about the economic system, then they aren't addressing health care at all.

Which is another reason why I think the sacrifice bit is a manipulation. If you truly understand Jesus, then IMO you will see all the same things he dealt with still exist. They have changed their names, but the maintain the same function. Which is why Jesus says you have to look at their fruits to tell who is false and who is true.

There is just so much too it. It all ties together and it is near impossible for me to explain it all. You can find out about the economic slavery in my sig.

I think you sig says alot.

Since there was no set value to items, there was also no way to make deal done and finished at the time of transaction/barter. What happens if a trade is done and someone turns around and says, "you still owe me."

Further payment is done that would be expected to settle the debt of such trade, yet the same guy turns around and says, "you still owe me."

That may not seem much until methods of payment became something like one's home, one's wife, one's kids, one's own life, etc, etc.

Then we get into who owns what and who is able to make such charges. We already have people that claim ownership of water and charge you for the water you buy and drink. Surely, things could happen where the world changes enough to make people buy/pay-for the air they breath. "You want it, you pay for it." When does this ever stop?

There is no coin slot in the Earth to pay for the resources we use, yet there is someone to try and make one!

Let's take this a bit further... outer space. Let's say we take resources off this world and take them to another planet. We do that, over and over and over until (long story short) resources here on Earth are depleted. At this point, it didn't stop in time.

When it is said something like "we must leave behind our Earthy possessions [to go to heaven]"... it doesn't mean we need to blood/flesh sacrifice. It means that we can't abuse the resource of the Earth to the point the resource are depleted. It means in order to travel in the heavens that we have to make sure we sacrifice our possessions and leave them on Earth.

There was a proposal once that someone made to get rid of our waste that we just shoot it off into space. Hmmm....

What if instead of a cross, Jesus had been the victim of a Chupacabra?

Bet the last 2000 years would have been very theologically different...

And then there is the old Philip K. Dick short story (forget the title) where a man dying in outer space is attacked and cannabalized by a hallucinatory vision of Jesus. If I remember correctly, the story takes the form of a courtroom case where an alien being is being tried for cruelty by making the dying man experience this vision. The alien argues that he was trying to act in kindness by calming the dying man and making his death more meaningful. The alien reached quickly into the man's head via a sort of imperfect telepathy and discovered the Jesus figure to be associated with the supreme being in the man's mind, along with a hastily misunderstood idea of the ritual of Eucharist. With his hazy understanding, the alien tied to soothe the man's death agonies by creating a vision of Jesus based on the man's perceptions. In the alien's vision, Jesus devoured the dying man, thus (the alien thought) allowing the man to experience oneness with his God. The alien found it incomprehensible that a "lower-order" being (i.e., man) would eat his "higher-order" god (i.e., in Eucharist), rather than the other way around.

[edit on 9/6/09 by silent thunder]

Jesus died the second death thats why God turned his back on him he says "My God My God why have you forsaken me" all sin was laid upon him, not just his body but his spirit as well, Christ died spiritually. As satan is the God of this world he murdered an innocent man which in my opinion gave God the right to raise him from the dead because there is no judgement for righteousness. But, it gave God the opportunity to lay all sin upon him so that the world can be saved. thats why the bible records that "God made a show of satan openly" he beat satan so bad that God took the keys to death,hell and the grave and gave gifts unto men. All you have to do is believe in God, believe in your heart and confess him with your mouth.


Keeper

reply to post by Keeper of Kheb


He hadn't died any deaths when he spoke words - that is why he was able to speak words. The 2nd death is the death of the soul.

reply to post by badmedia


Hi badmedia/

Now, Jesus does lay his life down for others. He could have kept his mouth shut, followed the commandments and lived a regular old life. IMO, doing that is his grace. He pays a hefty price all to help others, and he is killed for trying to help others etc.

Did not Jesus Christ come into this World to Destroy DEATH?
It WAS for this reason He came...none other!
He was GOD...''The WORD became Flesh and dwelt among us''(John1,14)

As just a simple man, He could NOT destroy death!
As God, He could have all His army come down to earth as He said He could if He wanted...He said 'MY Kingdom IS NOT of this world''

Jesus Christ WAS the ultimate SACRIFICE....He was lead to the slaughter like a Lamb!

The cross is called the "weapon of peace" because Christ slain enmity upon it (Eph. 2:16),
which was introduced with the fall of mankind into sin, and this enmity grew alongside the increase of sin.
In order to mitigate the growth of sin,
law was given, but in the words of Apostle Paul, it could not eliminate sin, but only showed the weakness of mankind which was corrupted by sin. Sacrifices and immolation could not atone for mankind before God,
for the blood of lambs and goats could not expiate sin.
The Old Testament sacrifices were only prototypes of the great Sacrifice of Christ.
In suffering upon the cross, the Lord made peace between mankind and God, "blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us" (Col. 2:14 and also the Sixth Hour).
LINK-SOURCE

ICXC NIKA
helen