The Earth cant be billions of years old...

Then Educate us! It�s easy for you to say but why don�t you back it up with some credible information and links. And don�t post information from any religious Creationists web site; let�s look at real unbiased scientific information. Waiting for your reply��..

If the earth/universe is 10,000 years old and it takes millions/billions of years for light to get to us from many stars, how can we see them? And don't quote from any creationist website saying it was created in transit, because thats not stated in the bible, thus not a explanation of gods word.

The earth is older than 10,000 years old reguardless of what the highly edited bible says. The bible was written by men who knitpick things to believe in from the larger original version and leave out stuff they don't like. Then when questioned they distort the meaning of it, to fit there beliefs. With nothing to back it up, but false faith.
Now when I was younger and naive I was raised catholic went to sunday school the whole 9 yards, so don't be telling me I don't know what I'm talking about. I have faith but not in the bible or any relgion. Not anymore. I guess I got tired of being hurt by it, and lied to. Relgion is the worst thing ever created. To me God is just a idea, because as I grew older I became skeptical of the bible when I learned religion was just a elborate lie we inflict on ourselves, for whatever reason.

For you relgious types did you know the bible has laws, that nobody ever mentions. If you believe that the earth was created 10,000 years ago, because the bible says so. Then do you also believe and practice these laws found in the bible?

Off the top of my head: (There more I'm sure)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

Feel free to add more people.

Why would you believe this? Because of a edited book says so? Pretty wacky huh? Deny Ignorance!

I�ve given up on most �accepted� religions long ago, instead opting to believe (i.e. BELIEF/FAITH) what I choose to believe.

Is it wrong that people choose to believe in things? Not at all. Is it wrong to believe blindly? To some degree yes, but as long as it doesn�t hurt anyone then I see nothing wrong with believing blindly.

It IS WRONG to force your ideals on others, however. This has happened throughout history thousands of times and will continue to happen thousands more. I�m not sure if it�s human nature to want to assimilate others or what, but for whatever the reasons, humans as a whole seem to want to �make� others into �their own image�.

It IS WRONG to believe in something that causes you direct or indirect harm. Believing in something to the extent that you are willing to kill for it, believing in something so much that you neglect your family and friends in order just to attempt to appease what you believe in � that�s wrong.

Even though our observable world would seem to point Earth being billions of years old, many choose to believe that it�s young. I personally don�t think that, not that it matters. RandomKungFu�s point about starlight is pretty compelling though. Science isn�t perfect, but it�s constantly evolving. Religion does the same thing � it evolves to fit the needs of the people.

Look at plate tectonics. Most now believe that the plates move, sliding under/over each other, etc. Fifty years ago it wasn�t this way. Yet you still have a few hold outs that believe otherwise. I think this is great� it keeps it objective. As for the religious side of things, look at the Catholic religion (yes, religion). It evolves constantly to fit the need of the people, whatever that need maybe.

It�s not stupid to believe in something without scientific evidence. Religion can often enhance science, as long as both parts keep a healthy balance. Indeed, many people need this healthy balance to fulfill their livelihood. Some people don�t. And that�s just fine.

As Einstein once said, science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind.

Interesting ideas and opinions, but I just remembered the Bible never says the Earth isnt billions of years old... and there was the great flood... ( I know I'm stupid lol).

To answer the Starlight proposition I will give you a link that outlines it very well. The first two examples are very good scientific examples however the third just disregard it because its just a bunch of rubish in my opinion because you cannot prove it.

www.icr.org...

Please Read

(1) the distances may not be that great after all;
Theres a big problem with this. Astronomers have ways of calculating stars which is pretty accurate.

Trigonometric parallax is the apparent shift or movement of an object when viewed from two different locations. One way to measure the distance between the Earth and the Moon involves the apparent difference in the direction to the Moon as seen from two different locations on the Earth. The use of the parallax method for measuring distance between the Earth and the Sun is illustrated in the figure below.

The parallax angle of an object is large when the object is close and gets smaller and smaller as the object becomes farther away. By measuring the parallax angle of stars it can be determined that even the closest stars are very far from the Earth. Most stars in our galaxy are so far away that their parallax angle is so small that it cannot be used. Parallax is used to measure distances as great as about 1,000 light years away from Earth. Distances to approximately 750 stars can be determined using this method. At greater distances, however, the parallax angle from an observer on Earth is too little to be measurable.

Differences in the absolute brightness and apparent brightness (or magnitude) of a star provide astronomers with a method of estimating distance to more distant objects. The absolute magnitude (or luminosity) of a star is a measure of the amount of energy that star radiates and can be estimated based on the color (a measure of temperature) of the star. The apparent brightness of the star is a measure of the brightness that we can observe. The greater the distance to a star of a given luminosity, the fainter (or less bright) the star will appear to be. This principle was first used in the 1800's to estimate that most stars were greater than about 100,000 times the distance to the Sun. Today, astronomers also use the changing brightness of variable stars to estimate astronomical distances.




(2) light may take a "shortcut" as it travels through deep space;
This "MAY" be possible but it does not say for sure. Does this count for all stars?


(3) the speed of light may have been considerably faster in the past.
Riiiiiight.....This is pretty far fetched. But hey Say whatever you think is necessary to fit your beliefs.

[Edited on 27-5-2004 by RandomKungFu]

You are wrong. Species have a way of controlling themselves. Turtles lay hundreds of eggs. But only about 2 out of that survive. This is all that needs to survive. Turtles live very long lives they are essentially immortal. So they only need to reproduce every so often. And only a few need to survive.

The human race only needs to produce two offspring per person. That way their DNA will be passed along. This ensures it if they are two per person. However now a days people produce many children. And All of them survive. So the population is rising. Also we aren't allowing people to die any more. The Average age of Death back in the day was like 40 or something. Now it's around 70 or 80. And there are people much older. This makes the population go up because of the fact that so many people are alive that would have died before because of old age.

Also technology plays a big part in the survival of the human race. Technology has allowed us to interact with each other. Back in the 1900's you could just hop in your car and go for a cross country trip. You couldn't just hop in a plane and take off to Europe. Now a days we interact more and Humans are polygamous by nature. They strive to have their Genetic material passed on. So a guy will father as many children as possible especially since he doesn't have to put any time and effort into the child. Females are limited because they have to carry the child for 9 months then she has to help raise it until it can survive on it's own. Children back in the day died a lot because of illness, injuries, and just because. It's how the times where. Now a days we won't allow a child to die. We have many child and all of them survive when only about 2 are supposed to survive. I'm not saying we should kill our children but from a Biological stand point we only need two children to pass on our DNA but now we are having more and they are all sticking around. Well that right there raises the population.

Blame the population rise on SOCIAL EVOLUTION, and TECHNOLOGY. But don't make uneducated remarks like the Earth CAN IN NO WAY BE BILLIONS OF YEARS OLD. That's just stupid on your part. No offense. Just read more!

[edit on 20-6-2004 by HombreConUnPollo]

Some people argue that the population growth has exploded in recent years due to science, but it seems to be trending toward decline. I blame TV, cultural changes, and internet porn.

People in modern society don't tend to have 9 kids like people tend to do in less civilized societies. It used to be somewhat important so someone would take care of you later in life, plus it was far more socially desirable than it is today. If you look at 3rd world countries even today, you see most of them popping out kids like theres no tomorrow.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...............

The logic behind it is so eerie I'm actually speechless......

I'm not trying to be callous, expressing your ideas candidly is a God given
"Proud to be an American" right.

It's just... I'm suprised this logic is coming from someone who can write.....

Humans have been through a Genetic bottle neck in the past were the human population was reduced greatly. The evidence is in our genes for this event there is not as much genetic variation in humans as there should be. Humans were at one point reduced to a couple thousand people about 50,000 to 75,000 years ago. The cause of this disater for the human population is still greatly debated some think it was a super volcano some a virus or even a great flood like in the bible no one really knows. But despite the cause this event pretty much made humans start all over again add to this event all the wars and plagues humans have been through and its not hard to see why there are not more humans around.

The problem with this discussion is that the only evidence that the Earth is billions of years old etc is scientific evidence. And creationists won't accept any scientific evidence that disagrees with their paradigm.

Anyway, you're all wrong. The Universe spontaeously appeared from nothing 15 minutes ago in such a wierd way that it gives the impression of being somewhat older....

sorry if my following statement has already been mentioned but one thing this guy doesnt realise that the if such thing as a DEATH RATE!!

SO WHAT IF THERE'S A DEATH RATE!?!?!?!?!??? In 1900 there was 1,000,000,000 people on Earth. In the year 2000 there was nearly 10,000,000,000 people on Earth. So what if there's a death rate? About 9 billion people in 100 hundred years?

You are forgetting disease, plague and the results of modern medicine and technology. Here's a chart (look at the bottom one):



With a shorter life cycle due to countless factors, you can see that even in the 1800s population growth was difficult (compared to today). Take that back 2000, 4000, 6000 years ago and you'll as well see similar trends.



[edit on 3-7-2004 by iceofspades]

[edit on 3-7-2004 by iceofspades]

Um, todays human, Homo sapien sapien is only about 50,000 years old. Now former versions, like Erectus and astropiculis(sp?) are much older.

But dude, war, plague, disease, famine, animals, natural disaster(hurricane, monsoon, earthquake, volcano) and thousands of other reasons kept population down in the past and present. Now if no one ever died then there would be hundreds of billions of people on earth. But people die, so there isn't that many. BTW, only about 6.2-6.6 billion people on Earth, not 10 billion.

And never use science when discussing religon, why do you think people like Galileo were put under house arrest or hanged/tortured/beheaded/burnt at the stake? You use facts and reality in a religous discussion just looking to be killed. Hell, it probably was a primitive form of suicide. "Hmmm, suicide is a sin, but if someone kills me then I didn't kill myself. But what if I caused the death? Say, I told the church the earth is round and they killed me for it(thousands did and died). I know they will kill me, but I wouldn't actually be killing myself. Well, this is better than having to live in a world where facts and science are dead."

lol, "foulable".... I think you mean fallible!!! Most of the religiuos arguments on here appear to be from our american cousins, and young ones at that, with little grasp of the english language, let alone the world at large! A recent study showed that around 75% of americans still believe in the Creation theory, not surprising as many schools in America do not teach anything but religious dogma.
As soon as we can rid ourselves of this religious foolishness, then many of the worlds conflicts, and other things that hold us back will be removed. just imagine if the current "elected" President (I love hearing about so called American democracy, "we choose two people,call one a dem and another a Rep, and get everyone to vote, then in the end it doesn't even matter as it is decided by a naff electoral college vote system anyway! lol, democracy my ar*e!!!) wasn't a God fearing nob jockey.... perhaps those poor 10000+ Iraqi's might still be alive today!!

Face facts, the Bible is a book that was cobbled together from random texts in about 400AD, at the council of Nicea. Those religious types decided what to include in the book and what to leave out. Also bearing in mind that the Old testament is a mish mash of previous religious stories from older civilizations, and jehovah was actually the Cannite God Baa`l and the story of jesus is identical to Ancient Egypts Horus, then you quickly realise what a complete load of hairy dogs bol*ocks it all is...


Anyway, God is an Alien...or a bunch of aliens to be precise...that is where we got the idea of gods from in the first place....

You are absolutely right that the magnetic field is weakening in a somewhat chaotic way. This is because it is getting ready to do a flip where North becomes South and visa versa. This will greatly weaken the field for the next 1000 or so years, after that it will strengthen. The field flips on average about every 200,000 years i believe, but that is a very rough avergage, i think its been about 700,000 years since the last flip. This is a true fact, but it fails to support your short earth existence span of 5000 or so years. If you watch the NOVA program about it, it is very interesting and insightful. It also talks about the reason Mars lost what atmosphere it had was because the core cooled, that ended the magnetic field and it is the magnetic field of a planet or moon that protects the atmosphere from the solar and galactic 'winds' of electro magnetic particles and radiation. These winds with out the magnetic field will gradually erode the gas atoms and molecules of the atmosphere out into space.

Note all: for the next 1000 years more UV caution and protection is advised.

As mentioned before, the Bible teaches us about right and wrong, and other stuff. The stories in it are probably 1-5% right since the people told them to other people, over and over again.

FISH,

Where are all the fish? They lay thousand of eggs each season.
They've been around for HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of years.
Where are they all now?



This is a Rhetorical statement. thanks.!

Eaten by their countless predators maybe? Dont forget that fish die of old age too, they arent born and stay here forever.

And I think its safe to say that there are hundreds of billions of fish (maybe more its just a guess), there is a lot of water here you know and fish dont take up much space.