Originally posted by Byrd
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If they were for real, the stones would have given us information that we didn't know (correct proportions of dinos, correct stances) and which we would have only later found to be correct.

Are you actually Saying there are no such things as Dinosaurs? Please say it so. Even a creationist can't doubt the BONES!!!! , Please let me know if I am misunderstanding you.

Forgive me for going back to a rather petty side of this thread, but why is there such a mutual intollerance between those who arrogantly believe they fully understand God and those who arrogantly believe they fully understand science?

For those of us like myself who are a little intimidated by the extensive knowledge flying around on this subject between the recent authors of recent posts, try to read with a more open mind.

If you are inclined to search for a religious answer, realize that there is always room for compromise. (I personally believe that one or two "source religions" based on a series of historical truths gave birth to all religions, which have become much more mystical and historically confused as time went on.) Religion was probably born of observation though, much like science, and even may have included primitive science.

If you insist that there could never be a God, not even one who works through the scientific medium you believe in, then root your beliefs in fact so that your dealings with religious people aren't adversarial, owing to your own insecurity. I've noticed a tendency for younger or less mature professing atheists to attack God through his believers, apparently hoping to destroy religion because they want to destroy the unanswered questions in their own minds.

The Vagabond,

All I have to say is well done!! I wish everyone had that kind of understanding of life, It would make everything so much easier.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
why is there such a mutual intollerance between those who arrogantly believe they fully understand God and those who arrogantly believe they fully understand science?

Because we are an arrogent race that desperatly needs to believe that we are correct in our beliefs in order to validate our self worth. Any challenge to those beliefs is a challenge to our worth and is meet with hostile emotions.

We are such an intelligent race.

this is a VERY interesting thread, thankyou for some book references, they were highly informative

Originally posted by BlackJackal
Kinglizard,

Thank you for explaining the supposed dates of all of those wonderful things that you pulled up. However they are that old why? Why, because someone says they are that old. There is no accurate way to date something even though scientists want you to beleive that there is.

BlackJackal,

I was attempting too concentrate on another aspect of earths geology, rather than concentrating on modern scientific tests and their validity in dating an object. I was showing that the type of erosion that carved out the Grand Cannon by fast moving water could not have been done in less than five million years. It has nothing to do with the dating of rocks rather the speed of erosion which can be used to age the formation.

It’s the same thing with Pangia and the continental drift. We know Continents are moving at 1 inch per year. Creationists say the earth is less than ten thousand years old, moving at 1 inch per year for ten thousand years would only equal 833.33 feet of continental separation. Europe is roughly 4000 miles away from America, the Creationists theory doesn’t measure up.

Originally posted by AD5673
The Earth cant be a billion years old because there would be billions of humans on Earth. In 1900 there were about 1 billion people on Earth. One hundred years later it is nearly 10 billion people on Earth. If humanity is eve maybe 40,000 years old there would be nearly 60-100 billion people on Earth. I dont have a link or anything i just thought this up in my head about the Earth's population. What do you people think?

read up on the red shift theory, it goes into this quite simply, without being too deep

suits you


[Edited on 18-5-2004 by Icatel]

Allow me to put it this way, as a biologist.

Let's assume that a bacteria divides every 20 minutes. This is true for E. coli under ideal conditions. OK, so we start off with one bacteria. Let's give it an hour. That's just exactly three division times, so now we have 2^3 bacteria, or 8 bacteria. Let's give it, instead, a day. We have now 2^(24*3) = 2^72 bacteria, or 4722366482869645213696 bacteria (4.7 sextillion bacteria). Now, let's give it a week. That's 2^(7 days * 24 hours / day * 3 divisions / hour) which is 2^504. That's 5.2 * 10^151 bacteria, or more than a gogol of bacteria. Let's assume that each bacteria occupies about 2 microns * 1 micron * 1 micron, which is 2 cubic microns. There are 1 billion cubic microns in a cubic millimeter, 1 billion cubic millimeters in one cubic meter. For reference, 1 cubic meter is about the size of half a refrigerator.
One billion is 10^9, so one billion times one billion is 10^18. So 10^18 bacteria make up half a fridge's worth. Remember we had 5.2 * 10^151 bacteria. Divide it out and we get 5.2 * 10^133 half-refrigerators-worth of E. coli (eeew). The Universe seems to have a value of less than 10^80 cubic meters (my own calculations based on web sites consulted).

So, the upshot is this... if we go by the theory that organisms will always double their population in the "doubling time," the universe should have been full of bacteria one week after the first bacteria developed.

The upshot of the upshot is this... if the world is more than one week old, where are all the bacteria?

[Edited on 18-5-2004 by AlexKennedy]

Originally posted by AlexKennedy
if the world is more than one week old, where are all the bacteria?

[Edited on 18-5-2004 by AlexKennedy]

You don't really want me to answer that, now do you?

Bacteria is all over. You got yogurt in your fridge? Open your mouth and check in there. Check on all the food in your house. Check on the table in front of you. Cough. Hey look, there's some rstuck on your monitor now! You can try and see it with your eyes, but it sure ain't gonna work. Get a microscope and some snot, you'll be getting new ( and cultured as well ) friends all day long!

Seems like I didn't get my point across to some people here properly. When I said "If the universe is more than a week old, where are all the bacteria," I was referring to the calculation I had just done to show that in a week, a single bacteria could divide enough times to fill the known universe.

Now, of course, we all know this is codswallop... but I was trying to illustrate the fallacy in thinking that organisms always breed at their optimum rate and that breeding can always occur.

I don't think anybody has mentioned safe sex yet That is a very important part of it all. *Most* people stopped having large families of 9-12 kids, since they can have sex whenever they want to and not have children (most of the time).

Originally posted by Warhappy
look, i know y you dont like the idea of the earth being millions of years old..... it screws with your religion and the lame theory of creation!!!!!!!!

Thanks a million for saying it. I was trying to think of a polite way of saying the same thing.

However they are that old why? Why, because someone says they are that old. There is no accurate way to date something even though scientists want you to beleive that there is

Exactly!!! There is no proof that they are millions of years old!!

Originally posted by AD5673

However they are that old why? Why, because someone says they are that old. There is no accurate way to date something even though scientists want you to beleive that there is

Exactly!!! There is no proof that they are millions of years old!!

Sigh...the evidance is all around you if you would just choose to get your head out of revelations and look at the world with a critical eye you will know that alot of smart people have dedicated their lives using methods that have been proven over and over again, sure they aren't perfect but they are the best we have without having to rely on some mythological book whose accuracy is in seroius doubt considering how many times its been translated and rewriten to corrispond to the politics of the time.

And just for the record if there was no Evolution, then there would be no need to innoculate millions against the flu every year since if there was no evolution virus's wouldn't evolve year in and year out. The fact that molecular biology exists proves evolution. Scientist have even seen it in action under a special microscopes.

Of course you're probably gonna disregard everything that I say so believe what you want to believe. Maybe life will give you the experiance to accuretly judge what is and what is not good science.

Contrary to popular belief one can believe in God and still believe in Evolution. The bible is a good book, but it should't be taken literally in alot of cases(i'm not gonna go quotin verses to prove my case since it is a well know fact that the bible contradicts itself in a number of places as well as any holy book for that matter). Well I'm out and flame on

I didnt even finish reading all this because I was getting rather annoyed. I am not religious, so my views have nothing to do with any dogma, on the side of religion, or of science. First thing to point out to many here...go research how dating is done currently. Research geology. Its not a concrete fact at all. Many theories about geology have been admitted as wrong, yet as still kept around because all of our earth science is based on evolution, and thus has to conform to evolution. The earth is not billions of years old, and the only thing given as proof is a dating system that uses itself for proof. Educate yourself on the matter objectively, and learn!