Any real proof of a 'Miracle'?

I suppose this belongs here. Suppose.

Just a simple question, is there any proof or documentation of a 'Miracle', where said miracle, has undergone scientific abuse, only to come out, to be seen as a Miracle.

May it be Miracle, of whatever perspective you see it.

Just would like to find one, as google searches lead me to jesus, a cancer patient who recovered from chemo, or whatever.

But just looking to see if anyone can point me in a certain direction, or better yet, and a point.

according to the dictionary a miracle is:

an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

From that perspective it seems to me that by definition, a miracle is unprovable. How could a scientist prove something that is outside his ability to do so? Besides, miracle is such a broad term assigned to a plethora of phenomena proven and unproven. Maybe you could be more specific? And yes, I did just say plethora.

reply to post by Vipassana


I know! You don't hear plethora anymore now do you!

Umm. Well I guess to 'sum' it up, a miracle as in the medical context.
Outside of the movie "The Haunting in Connecticut".

Yes, in the medical context, i'd suppose.

There may be a plethora of medical context material. lol.

Meditation has been proven to create phenomena outside the bounds of current scientific capabilities:

During visits to remote monasteries in the 1980s, Benson and his team studied monks living in the Himalayan Mountains who could, by g Tum-mo meditation, raise the temperatures of their fingers and toes by as much as 17 degrees. It has yet to be determined how the monks are able to generate such heat.

www.news.harvard.edu...

I suppose you could call this a miracle

reply to post by Vipassana


I wouldn't really call it a miracle, in my standards.

I did have a football coach who would refer to that alot though!

He'd call us names because if a monk can do that, why can't we annihilate the opposing team! lol

I think that a miracle, by definition, is automatically outside the province of science.

One of the main features of a miracle is its unpredictable nature. For instance, many people believe that they have been healed by visiting the shrine at Lourdes. However, not everyone who visits that shrine experiences a healing. Since the phenomenon isn't repeatable, it is not subject to experiment. At best you can say that sometimes, someone who visits Lourdes experiences an unexpected healing from an incurable disease or condition.

Unfortunately, you can't even say that Lourdes is responsible for such healings, because people who don't visit Lourdes also experience similar, unexpected healings. Similarly, while sometimes people who pray fervently are healed, so are people who don't pray, who are total atheists.

People who have faith in the power of cancer will dismiss these healings as frauds or errors. Even if no one is lying, they'll claim that it wasn't really cancer, but something that looks like it, but that can be healed. They'll deny the event.

Even when the healing is well documented, it's easy to dismiss. The doctor was mistaken, someone fooled him, the patients were switched, it wasn't a real doctor who signed the affidavit, the signature was forged, and on and on and on. You can make any evidence go away if you're determined not to accept it.

Ultimately, even the medical profession has a name for miracles, as if by naming them they somehow made them less miraculous. The name is "spontaneous remission", meaning "it went away by itself and we don't know why". About all it means is, someone won the lottery.

But I think that's the point. Every so often, someone wins the lottery. Overall we know that 1 out of so many millions of people are going to win. The idea that *someone* won the lottery isn't much of a miracle, even though it's a miracle for the one who got lucky.

reply to post by chiron613


Yes on most part

Not a No on the rest, just nothing to say about it I guess. lol

I'm just looking for a miracle, a well documented one like you said, that I could research.

Thank you for your post, I did enjoy reading it.

There was a thread here 2 days ago about a woman with Lou Gehrigs disease who was cured after visiting Lourds.The ailment is neurological and incurable.And no amount of mind over body tripe is going to repair damaged nerves so her drs.and i would call that a miracle.

reply to post by AgentX09


If you could find it for me, I think i'd have a hard time trying to find it with a lack of title and such.

Originally posted by Republican08
I suppose this belongs here. Suppose.

Just a simple question, is there any proof or documentation of a 'Miracle', where said miracle, has undergone scientific abuse, only to come out, to be seen as a Miracle.

May it be Miracle, of whatever perspective you see it.

Just would like to find one, as google searches lead me to jesus, a cancer patient who recovered from chemo, or whatever.

But just looking to see if anyone can point me in a certain direction, or better yet, and a point.

Nah. By its very definition a miracle is something that really only happens once or maybe a few times, but doesn't usually happen and isn't usually even possible at all.

Science by its nature basically equates proof=repeatable. In other words, miracles don't repeat, but proof is repetition because your results of the test must be repeatable. So, basically a miracle is the exact opposite of proof.

Kind of like Noah's ark type thing. Everyone is like, that's ridiculous. There's no way you could get two of every animal on one boat!!! Well no kidding. Even Noah knew that! Why do you think he called it a miracle? If people did it all the time he would have just called it another day at work.

So, hence that's why there's no proof. If there was proof it wouldn't be a miracle. It would just be basic physics because it would be repeatable and something we could test for and also exploit.

If there is a God and he's changing the laws of physics around well you can never test or measure that. Why? All of our tests and measurements are relative to some OTHER test that was taken with the same laws of physics sometime in the past or constants calculated out by mathematics.

Once physics change your point of reference is all screwed up. You'd get a number, but it would be meaningless. It would be the only measurement taken in that reference frame. You would have nothing to compare it to.


Imagine if the universe was a computer game and God is the programmer. Okay, usually if you started the game and just jumped to the last boss all of a sudden that would be weird.

If the characters in the game had a conscious like we do, then to them it might be a miracle. How did the main character just skip to the end and kick the bosses butt?

But the programmer knows he can just stop the program and changed a few things in the game code. Then he can move the character to the end and just save the game state.

Then the programmer just changes all the code back before pushing the start button and then loads the saved game. All the program code (laws of physics) would be exactly the same as they were before. To anyone inside the game it wouldn't be repeatable or testable. Every time they start a new game, just like before, they have to play all the way through the game. But somehow, that one time, like a miracle, we just jumped to last boss.

Now if you really wanna get a feel for what this is like, go download an emulator and play and old Nintendo game or N64 game or something. The emulators have save states where you can save the state EXACTLY like how it was when you hit the save button. Like frozen in time.

And like a God, if you mess up, you can keep doing it over and over and over. However, once you get it correct, the internal clock of the game will only be aware of and know about that one time you got it perfect.

If the characters in the game had a conscious what they would actually see is the main character playing a perfect game straight through with no mess ups like a miracle. But that's just because all the mess ups were thrown out and nobody saw em.

[edit on 30-8-2009 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 30-8-2009 by tinfoilman]

reply to post by Republican08


If we go by the definition that a miracle is an effect without a cause, then it would be hard (or declared impossible) to prove it based on scientific basis since one needs to know the cause in order to reproduce the effect.

However, there is a subtle social miracle that has happened that everybody seems to subscribe to and not see it as a miracle. You don't even have to be religious to even believe that it truly has happened. The proof is before your very eyes and ears. Think about how hard it was to get everybody on this planet to agree to a single time system, like where UTC is located. Note how often every faction and nation fights over every bit of detail that concerns any bit of religious order, yet despite that people still agree to the system of time -- universally without question.

That is a true miracle.

You don't have to believe or have faith in Jesus, yet the story alone no doubt has helped us gain a universal order out of chaos.

Just think what the world would be like today if people continually fought over the system of time and how it should be measured and calibrated. Just think what if we had to constantly covert from one time system to another time system just in order to talk to someone else. Just think what the study of history would be like if we had to constantly figure out what timeframe people recorded their time.

And people don't realize this miracle.

Originally posted by Republican08
reply to post by AgentX09

 

If you could find it for me, I think i'd have a hard time trying to find it with a lack of title and such.

> Woman with ALS reports healing at Lourdes.posted by Internos on 26/8/2009.Sorry i cant provide direct link as i post using a mobile phone.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/619d989cf360.jpg[/atsimg]

1980 baby..!!


What more proof do you need..?!

Although I have experienced miracles in my own life, I am pretty sure you won't find a miracle that is repeatable in the way that scientific analysis requires. I've read the four Gospels I-don't-know-how-many-times, and am almost sure Jesus didn't use a formulaic approach to the miracles He performed. I think there was a reason for this. If you could do A and then B and then C occurred (miraculously! Wow!), then there would be no cause for calling it a miracle, would there?

reply to post by Republican08


Try starting with Padre Pia.

This re-enactment of Ian McCormack's experience, where he was stung multiple times by box jellyfish, whose venom is deadly, is well worth watching: Ian McCormack.

Look at my sig, to me it's a massive one considering the flesh is heart and would die off after 10 minutes.

it's been around 1300 years.


Padre Pio like the last poster said had the stigmata for 50 striat years.. That amount of blood lose the doctors tested said he would of died in days.


He wa s avictim, and he also cured a blind woman named gemma degorgia with no pupils. Impossible to see with no pupils, the girl is on video and everything.


Her eyes are on video.



The girl in my pic who also seen Christ and her angel had the stigmata. St Gemma. She has a website google it.


My Aunt, who had one month to live from a giant tumor, literally had her funeral arrangements set.

Took her concern to an underground hidden priest, who had the ability to cure, asked for a cure and she lived and the doctors had no clue how that happened.

never hear about that on the news.



There are other miracles in the human body.


So many just do research.

peace.

It's a miracle that there is life on this planet, despite the probability that life can even exist in one.

All this searching, yet Earth remains to be the only planet with life-forms.
And to speak 'realistically', we are in a single planet out of many millions (that we have discovered) that actually has living life-forms.

[edit on 16-9-2009 by GambitVII]

I think it depend on where you look for a miracle. There is plenty of NDE (near death experiences) that I would think are some miracles. If you talk to a doctor he would tell you there are many miracles happen every day in his job. And then you got the what they call faith healers. Do a search on faith healers you gonna fine what some believe a miracle workers. To be honest I think Faith healers are rare indeed, and I don't think there would be many evidences about them I think they're in secret. Not to muchin there are plenty of people supposedly that were possessed by a devil and they were healed. There was that one catholic movie that just came out in the last 2 years of a girl possessed by Satan himself and there was plenty of documentation of it. Plus there are plenty of people who have incurable illnesses and that when they we're prayed upon they were healed. I have a friend in Christ that should not be alive today. I dont remember right now what is illness was but the doctors could do nothing for him. He went to his church and was healed and his alive today.

Well, I believe that when people say miracle...
they are actually looking for something that defies human logic.

Such as what happened to slymattb's friend.
As they say... beauty is in the eye of the beholder.