Isolationism as a serious option for America

-America has enough coal to run its economy at current levels for the next 150 years. The USA has the largest proven coal reserves in the world. We go back to a coal-based economy. Cars run on electric batteries charged at coal-fired plants, etc. America still has some oil, by the way: 35% of the oil we consume is taken from American wells. We use this for plastic, a few essential items, and fertilizer, and mine landfills for more plastics to recycle. Combine this with nuclear and cleaner forms of energy and more efficient technology, and we'll be fine for quite some time.

-Less oil will mean less plastic crap and a more stoic lifestyle. Good. People should learn to live with less anyway and not measure the worth of a man by the size of his house, sofa, SUV, or wallet. Get back to a good, hard, stoic lifestyle. The Way the West Was Won.

-Bring manufactuing back home. That will bring WORK back home too, by the way.

-Pay off all our foreign debt using a printing press. That, of course, will make it worthless abroad. But who cares? We are going isolationist here. If necessary, we issue a new form of Treasury-printed currency like Lincoln did when he created the Greenback. Close the FED FOREVER and frog-march a few hundred orange-jumpsuited Wall Streeters and offshoring CEO's into SERIOUS FEDERAL PRISON FOR LIFE. Charges: High Treason against the United States of America for creating a system that sent wealth and jobs abroad and hollowed out the country for the benefit of a few hundred billionaires.

-End all foreign wars. Close foreign basese. Seal the border and use the Marine Corps to patrol it. You want to come live here, you apply for a visa and do it legally. Otherwise you don't come here. This is what it means to be a NATION with BORDERS. People don't like it, they don't have to come here. Oh, and not a single other immigrant until we reach full employment for everyone here, by the way. Returning soldiers will be able to find more lucrative, safe, and steady employment in a revitalized, growing, and well-paying manufacturing sector.

-Foreign policy? We don't need no stinkin' foreign policy. We have enough nuclear weapons to blow the planet up ten times over and a superior deepwater Navy to protect our shores from anyone stupid enough to try and attack. Otherwise, we leave the rest of the planet alone and there is a 99% chance they will leave us alone too. "World policeman" ? Why? Let other nations sort out their issues among themselves however they see fit. It simply is NONE OF OUR BUSINESS.

-For a very few essential items, we might have to conduct some very basic international trade. This is to be done at the minimal level possible, and a Spartan, disciplined, upstanding and work-oriented life will minimize the necessity for this for the most part anyway.

Fortress America. Almost everyone says its impossible. Is it? America is a net food exporter; there is plenty to eat. We build here again, there will be plenty to use. Stop relying on debt and financial chicanery for everything and make real things with real people. American people.


[edit on 8/15/09 by silent thunder]

reply to post by silent thunder


Hell YES!!!!

If I could give you an applause I would.

I cant so I guess you will have to settle for star and flag!

Well said..my sentiments exactly!!

I wish I would have thought of it to put it all in one thread, but I have said this type of thing many times in different posts for some time now...

Dude,
we gotta get together and have a beer.
I've been saying this for years but the rest want to control the world or subsidize it.

For your plastics, oil, textile and a bunch of others things, legalise hemp, and start a big industry out of it...unlimited biofuel, unlimited plastic.. ect...

That alone would bring the US out of recession...

Isolationism has never worked and will never work.. especially with the world markets, countries and people as interconnected as they are at the moment.

It would send the US back to the stone age as well as damaging the Global economy quite a bit. When the US finally emerge to the open market again, it will be a decade behind the rest of the developed world.

Finally, don't you think that if you stopped importing, other countries would stop importing your products and begin to ban your franchise exports etc?

What kind of problems do you think this would cause?

Many of us who spent the 90s in Russia became aware over time that the aim of the United States was to create a rump state that would allow economic interests to strip assets at will. The population in this scheme was to be good for consuming foreign goods produced abroad with Russia’s own cheaply sold raw materials. The aim was a castrated state, anarchy, a vast, confused territory of captive consumers, cheap labor and unguarded oil and aluminum.

Some of us who came home after seeing this began to realize that the same process is underway in the United States: the erosion of the tax base, the gradual appropriation of the tools of government by economic interests, a massive, disorganized population useless to everybody except as shoppers. That is their revolution: smashing states everywhere and creating a scattered global nation of villas and tax shelters, as inaccessible as Olympus, forbidding entry even to mighty dictators.
-Matt Taibbi

If America runs its energy on coal, we might kill a polar bear.

Why do you hate polar bears?

If America doesn't bomb brown people back into the stone age, our military industrial complex might be unemployed.

Why do you hate bomb technicians?

Originally posted by Dermo
Isolationism has never worked and will never work.. especially with the world markets, countries and people as interconnected as they are at the moment.

Levels of world interconnectivity, concretely measured using international trade figures as index, fluxuate over history. (source = any Econ 101 textbook that happens to be nearby, or try 201 Macroecon if you can't find confirmation there). Actually, we are experiencing abnormally high levels of intercontectivity. It is worth noting howver, that the situation is not unprecidented. International trade as a percentage of global GNP was about as high as it is now once before in history: During the years before World War I. Then as now, the "civilized" world had experienced an almost eerily long period of peace...about 40 years, really, since the Franco-Prussian war of the 1870s. Many thought Europe would never see war again. Then, of course, we have the horrors of WWI and its extention, WWII, not long therefater...History often has a dark sense of irony, it appears.

Originally posted by Dermo
It would send the US back to the stone age as well as damaging the Global economy quite a bit. When the US finally emerge to the open market again, it will be a decade behind the rest of the developed world..

I don't care about "damaging the global economy." That's their own personal problem to sort out, nation by nation. Any attempt at a "global" solution can only end in a further slide towards global tyrrany.

As for "sending us back," please read my first paragraph in the original post on the potential of the US to achieve current levels of production based on my breakdown of energy resources. We may have to change and scale back in some ways, but this will actually make us better human beings. I am a great lover of the Stoic thinkers; a man who keeps himself sharp and hard sees such states as their own reward, and the excessive mateialism in the US right now is pschospiratually damaging anyway. I fail to see how any of this equates to "sending the US back to the stone age." At most, it might send people back to a level of "opulence" more like that of the 70s, say, with more centrailized urban living, slightly smaller houses, a bigger middle class, and fewer of certain (generaly useless) consumer goods. I see an upside in the potential embrace of a more Spartan simplicity this could engender as a national set of values.

Originally posted by Dermo
Finally, don't you think that if you stopped importing, other countries would stop importing your products and begin to ban your franchise exports etc?

What kind of problems do you think this would cause?

Since my theory proposes going isolationist, I really don't care whether or not the rest of the planet stops 100% buying stuff from us. We will revitalize our manufactuing sector and make things by Americans, for Americans. As noted, some very limited form of international trade may be necessary. As America is the largest food exporter on the planet, we can perhaps tap a bit of that excess food and use it for extremely limited international trade. Food is a fungible commodity and the demad will only increase along with the growth in world population, desertifcation, etc. The model I envision is similar to the early Meiji-Peroiod Japanese policies, where foreingers were only allowed to trade an extremely small number of limited items at certain strictly defined locations (i.e., Dejima, Yokhama), and were not allowed geneal access to movement about the nation or open commerce in other areas.

Originally posted by Dermo
What kind of problems do you think this would cause?

For the US, very few I think. There would be a scramble in a number of sectors...the de-finacializing of the economy could pose a big problem but the return to a manufacturing-based economy would more than compensate for it very soon. Re-training and patience would be needed. In the end the situation would be an enormous net plus, howerver. US technology and research could switch from a focus on abstract financial arbitrage and obsessive development of "useless" nonsense like twitter, and be re-directed towards industrial improvement. Cleaner, more efficient factories and use of the system, reformation of the basic national infrastructure, solving food-relateed problems...we get our best and brightest working on these things instead of new ways to scam cash from schoolteacher's pension funds, and our nation will florish.

Problems for the rest of the world: Whatever problems they may face will be theirs to sort out as they see fit, with no involvement of any sort from the United States.

[edit on 8/15/09 by silent thunder]

reply to post by silent thunder


and something worth noting is the renewal in genuine interest in America as a culture and a people. The respect that once was so widespread would be rekindled in the minds of other world leaders. No longer would we be considered the "liberators" ( I could use other adjectives as well) or world police. No longer would Americans be looked at as the rapists of world resources and one of the leading causes in financial bubbles and their inevitable bursting that sends world economies down the drain...

Real interest would cause real investment in real assets...not just AAA rated crap paper... ultimately giving a major boost to even the smallest local economies...

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
reply to post by silent thunder

 

and something worth noting is the renewal in genuine interest in America as a culture and a people. The respect that once was so widespread would be rekindled in the minds of other world leaders. No longer would we be considered the "liberators" ( I could use other adjectives as well) or world police. No longer would Americans be looked at as the rapists of world resources and one of the leading causes in financial bubbles and their inevitable bursting that sends world economies down the drain...

Real interest would cause real investment in real assets...not just AAA rated crap paper... ultimately giving a major boost to even the smallest local economies...

Very true. Real people, making real things, keeping their debt at a minumum, and honoring it pomptly when it becomes necessary. You want something, you save for it. Not meddling in other nation's businesses, no longer being the most hated nation on earth, building real solid local comunities and families...a nation of farmers and manufacturers, just like Jefferson wanted. TPTB want you to think its impossible, so we will buy into thier NWO one-wold-seamlessly-connected pipe dream, allowing them to suck the country dry and toss it aside like a rusty tin can when they are finished. But it doesn't have to be that way.

reply to post by silent thunder


The sad part is this idea is so under appreciated and so under supported it would never even see the light of day where it counts...on the Senate floor.

The day something like this is feasible is the day after nuclear armageddon...very unfortunately...Hopefully I am wrong about that.

People many times lack to see the real "conspiracies." They like to give the dramaticized romantic end times "illuminati" style behind the scenes unrealistic conspiracies names such as the NWO and other popular catch phrases, when in fact the NWO is quite old and has nothing to do with killing off the majority of the blue collar workers known as the middle class...

What the "NWO" is is the globalization and exploitation of the common mans labor. For the mega rich to gain off no expenditures of their own through economic and foreign militaristic policies forced through such representatives as our Congress and our military.

Originally posted by Dermo


It would send the US back to the stone age as well as damaging the Global economy quite a bit. When the US finally emerge to the open market again, it will be a decade behind the rest of the developed world.

Finally, don't you think that if you stopped importing, other countries would stop importing your products and begin to ban your franchise exports etc?

What kind of problems do you think this would cause?

Stone age?

Shyeah...Yeah, after a year we'd be cooking around fires and wearing bearskins.

Damage the global economy?????????????????Hello. Can you say Reserve Currency? Current events?

Stop importing, export??
Of course. That's the point. To make our country self supporting again.

We need to manufacture and consume our own products to have a real economy. It is a failure to practice the most basic tenets of economy that has us in the disaster we are in today.

BACK TO BASICS.

That's the point.

I sincerely wish you all the best on your current plan, it does sound like a really good idea.

I especially like the part where you say that some small sacrifices might be needed, with which i agree, as it wont be easy to convince 4.6% of the world population to stop consuming around 33% of everything that is produced in the whole planet.
There sure will be a lot of fat teenagers pissed off when they cant replace their 6month old ipod.
Did you know for example, that the average american eats 20x more fish and meat that the average indian, or 60x more paper or gasoline? But i guess that you produce all of that internally and if you don't i'm sure that you can find the raw materials in that great country of yours.
I too come from a rich country, but i'm afraid that we probably wont be following your noble example, as i'm sad to say, my fellow countrymen are too used to this level of lifestyle and most people over here seem to think that we get the better part of the deal in our dealings with the rest of the world. Fools!
I wish you all the best with you illegal immigrant problem, we got the same problem here as well. Fortunately for us, we keep most of our immigrants, legal and illegal, doing the kind of job that we wouldn't really want to do, You know the minimal wage, no benefits kind of job. As they say over here, in a world of professors and engineers who is left to serve tables?
And I'm sad to say that you will be missed in your role as the world police, i'm sure that the world still remembers how you went into Iraq to free the people of tyranny, how you removed Robert Mugabe from Zimbabwe and defeated the military junta in Burma. Some say that you only went there for oil, i don't believe it as your actions in Burma and Zimbabwe clearly prove that you are not only motivated by greed.
I only wish that my fellow countrymen had your vision, but unfortunately for us, the flag waving god fearing patriot isn't very common as the media over here usually portrays them as a bit loony.
So there's nothing left for me to do apart from give you my best wishes and tell you that I will follow with interest the developments over that side of the pond.

Originally posted by silent thunder

Fair enough,

You should try and get into power with that as your business plan.. see how far you get



[edit on 18/8/09 by Dermo]

Not that some of your goals aren't admirable, but there are a couple of flies in the soup:
Economically, this could not be done without completely ruining our own economy. Stoic lifestyle? You bet - Somalia stoic.

As soon as the American people had the smallest clue what they would give up, they would hang you from the nearest lamp post.

Just a question, but why are so many Americans so fascinated with eighteenth-century ideas?

Originally posted by Office 4256
Not that some of your goals aren't admirable, but there are a couple of flies in the soup:
Economically, this could not be done without completely ruining our own economy. Stoic lifestyle? You bet - Somalia stoic.

As soon as the American people had the smallest clue what they would give up, they would hang you from the nearest lamp post.

Just a question, but why are so many Americans so fascinated with eighteenth-century ideas?

Why do people think this would involve "Somolia levels" or " stone age levels" of life? Do you realize how much coal the US has in its soil? Please see the first paragraph of the original post.

The US soil is also chock full of other minerals and essential goods, and we produce more food than any other nation on earth. There really is very little we truly need from the outside world -- except oil. Even so, we pump 35% of our own oil. Oil use can be reduced by a combination of coal use, new cleaner energies, and increased efficiency. People may have to give up their monster SUVs and tighten up suburban sprawl in a way. They may have to move closer to cities and use public transport more. At most, we are talking a return to 1960s or 1970s standards of living...not Somlia or the Stone Age

And with the educational system/brightest minds turned towards industrial and energy goals rather than financial chicanery, improvements would be even more concrete.

reply to post by silent thunder


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d8901a8bee63.png[/atsimg]

I want to personally thank you for this thread.

I think the reason many feel that it would be a bad idea is that it reveals how inter dependent the world has become with the US economy and until China really kicks in the US does consume the largest proportion of the worlds production and services. So if we close our borders we would be shutting down many manufacturing and production facilities world wide. Many globally would lose their jobs.

We do have over 150 years worth of coal not to mention that we are also very capable of [all be it not popular] use in Nuclear energy. As far as food supply remember we over consume not under produce.

To the detractors who say that when we emerge from that isolationism that we would be a decade behind the rest of the world.

I say Poppycock!

Imagine the wealth we would save from closing all our over seas military installations and shift our military industrial prowess towards higher end consumer products. If we focused our combined military industries and research back towards plowshares it would push the Standard of living way beyond imagination.

Meanwhile the rest of the world would just love us for leaving them alone. They can get along just lovely without us sticking our nose in their business. I say lets start by pulling out of NATO then pull out of the UN, Close our borders completely to MEXICO and have a case by case situation with Canada. A case of their great beer for a case of our whiskey.

1 for 1 seems fair.





[edit on 18-8-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by Office 4256

You bet - Somalia stoic.

Funny. Even in the 1700s the lifestyle and technological advantages here in America and societal infrastructure was greater than that of todays Somalia.

So you mind giving any sort of credence to that blunt uninformed statement?

As soon as the American people had the smallest clue what they would give up, they would hang you from the nearest lamp post.

Wrong again mate...(in my opinion.... )

As soon as America realizes it doesnt need the 500 billion dollars worth of useless crap that America gets barraged with you would see an awakening like no other by the very Americans that pawn that very same crap.

Just a question, but why are so many Americans so fascinated with eighteenth-century ideas?

Not hardly 18th century. These ideas go back quite a ways..Since before the Roman Empire when Greek city states put different trade embargos and things of that sort on outside goods coming into their economies...

Where they gave a crap about freeing the people outside their borders. Until there was an outside threat that threatened all of them; their militarys were very isolated...

There is a reason soverignty is underminded by the rich elite...to help spur globalization and keep their pockets lined with gold...

You can be for this way of the elitist attitude or a more traditional sense wher everyone can benefit...not the select few... The way everyone benefits is starting with your home and building a foundation there first. Not building a foundation outide your borders so the people can buy cheaply made crap... Who does this benefit? The laborer who makes 25 cents an hour or the executives of the corporations who have taken advantage of the non-existant labor laws in the porr countries?

No matter how you look at it, exploitation is proliferated in todays world economies...

edit for typos

[edit on 18-8-2009 by open_eyeballs]

reply to post by SLAYER69


Yes sir. Is there a way to shake someones hand over the internet?

Same to the OP...

Ron Paul explains his views on isolationism vs non-interventionism



I think we need to stop policing the world and try to get our own house in order. One rule that I live by is "You can't save the world if you can't pay the bills" last I checked the US deficit keeps going on up. At this rate isolationism will come to the US, but not as a choice but as a consequence of the US foreign policy that if you look back hasn't really changed for how many decades now.