The age of the soul. Abortion.

Just a quick question, something i've been thinking about lately.

Playing along that i'm a christian, hindu whatever.

What would be the moment that, a embryo, or the pack of cells harbour a soul?

Sam Harris, pointed out in one of his videos about it, that Stem Cells are taken from 3 day old embryos. And I kind of thought to myself aghast, that he was ok with that, but he went on, and I got a little enlightened on it, persay.

A 3 day old embryo has 150 cells in it, but a fly in it's brain has 100,000 cells.

So that put it in perspective. When does the soul become in their. Can a soul possess something that only has 150 cells? If so can a fly have a soul too? Or is it strictly Homo-Sapiens.

I don't really ever think about things like this or youth in Asia. lol it's a joke. But I started thinking about this one.

Does a religious organization pose an answer, I can't find?

Is it when the nervous system is accumulated, or when the brain develops, or starts to develop.

Alot of people claim to know where this 'Soul' goes, but when does it come?

Just seemed a bit odd, a thread for my religious brothers, just simply inquiring, about it.

Don't get heated please, be respectful. I've been trying my best to.

This probably won't answer your question the way you asked it but I don't think it matters when the soul enters a fetus. My point is that those cells, tissue, or whatever you call it are destined to become a human being. If you are trying to ask how early in development it would be safe to abort without fear that the soul is inhabiting it already, then my answer to you is that it doesn't matter. Those cells, tissue, etc. are destined to be a human and is sacred from conception.

No offense intended. That is how I feel about it.

Some of you might remember Helen Wambaugh's research into past-lives.

She invited college/university students to participate. They were gathered in a large hall and provided mats. Wambaugh conducted a mass hypnotic induction. Afterwards, participants were invited to complete a simple form on which they could (if they believed it relevant) state the period in which they believed they'd lived before -- what eating utensils they'd used -- if they'd had any pre-birth memories during the experiment and so on.

Surprisingly, it was the eating utensils which fixed the time in which they believed they'd lived before and this in fact tended to validate past-life information provided by the students.

Most of them hadn't given a moments thought before as to what people of previous eras used to eat their food with. But many stated in the forms they completed that they'd used a three or two prong fork, for example. Others said they'd used their hands, eaten from a communal bowl.

Archaeologists are able to determine a time period based on whether pottery, wooden, metal implements are discovered. And the era claimed by the students as the time of their past lives coincided very often with the correct utensils for that era.

So, generally speaking, those students who believed they had remembered a past-life during the mass hypnosis experiment had confirmed it to a degree by correctly naming the types of eating utensils of the period in question.

As to their past-lives, again, these were something of a surprise.

Several participants claimed that they had agreed to this life only reluctantly. They said they had dreaded inhabiting a human body again and had left it until the very last moment to do so -- taking occupancy of their body in other words at the moment of birth. They'd left it until the very last minute.

Some said they had not inhabited their human body until several months AFTER birth !

This latter was surprising for researchers and readers of the Wambaugh books alike.

It's not something we usually contemplate, is it -- that the final 'owner' of a body might choose deliberately to delay his/her occupancy for a matter of months.

The immediate question of course, is: So who was in the body during the time the intended 'owner' remained absent ? And what happened to that 'house sitter' once the intended owner reluctantly took up permanent residence ?

Obviously the baby was eating, defecating, drinking, crying, vomiting, goo-goo-ing. The parents believed 'this' was their new baby. When in fact the spirit/soul/identity whom they would later regard as their son and daughter had been absent from the body for periods of days, weeks and even months immediately after the birth.

I wasn't able to find a great deal about Wambaugh's research online. Admittedly it was a very brief search.

Her name is sometimes spelled Wambach, apparently, as I learned online a moment ago.

I have a couple of her books. They're 80s vintage from memory. But those interested in her experiments and research into past-lives might be able to find her books online.




(Edited to correct a few missing words. Should learn to read posts before posting them).

[edit on 14-8-2009 by St Vaast]

reply to post by calmbutwary


But then, any atom, can become that which is destined to be a human. Some of your atoms will go on, and become inside of millions of humans.

Harris- When the president scratches his nose, he commits a huge holocaust of potential souls.

reply to post by St Vaast


Very interesting, a little derailing, but not bad though at all. This is an archive of course

I don't really know how to respond to that, although i'd love to of been there securing everything dead boltedly shut!

reply to post by Republican08


I think I understand what you meant, but I was just referring to any atoms or cells that are actually in the womb and could be subjected to an abortion.

[edit on 14-8-2009 by calmbutwary]

This may be off topic, but do any of those thousands of tadpole like sperm cells have souls?

I mean they are the beginning of life right? The sperm is "alive" right?

Doesn't life begin there?

I do not think a simple answer exists to this question.

The soul can not be measured and therefor we can not know when it enters the body.

What I do wonder is, why does it matter when the soul comes into the body? After all, the soul is immortal in almost every religion. If our bodies die our souls will live on. In this way, abortion is not murder of the soul but only of the body.

To me, in the end of the day, the choice to have or not have an abortion, is strictly personal. Religious insights can help one with issues of the heart, but eventually one has to live with it's own choices and should therefor choose what is best resembling one's view in life.

reply to post by Republican08


From my experience, one year after birth.

reply to post by Better Mouse Trap



Excellent ! Excellent point !


A feast for thought . Thank you

..."the soul" is a romantic notion, myth, folklore... i would give it no consideration in an abortion decision or anything else - except maybe philosophical discussions...

Originally posted by DrDragonfly
I do not think a simple answer exists to this question.

The soul can not be measured and therefor we can not know when it enters the body.

What I do wonder is, why does it matter when the soul comes into the body? After all, the soul is immortal in almost every religion. If our bodies die our souls will live on. In this way, abortion is not murder of the soul but only of the body.

To me, in the end of the day, the choice to have or not have an abortion, is strictly personal. Religious insights can help one with issues of the heart, but eventually one has to live with it's own choices and should therefor choose what is best resembling one's view in life.

Well, mainly so we can start studying them again, without being shot.

If we could find a time the soul enters the body, and get Christians, and everyone to agree, then we can study the stem cells. Otherwise, we are just throwing them away anyways.

As mother teresa said "Abortion is what stops peace on earth''. Clearly a sagacious comment in itself.. sarcasm over.

This measureless soul, that can't be seen smelled touched, accounted for, besides ghosts tales, which contradict religion. Where do we get off believing in them, well old texts I get it , I get it.

I'd like to get studying on them, one day i'm going to have parkinsons disease, or something else, that is going to creep up, and i'd really like a cure...

Eh, I guess will just have to suffer because that's what jesus would want.


I would say that sperm just carry the genes, so do the ovaries, and bada bing badaboom, and a cigarette. We get a new life form, with a endless amount of possibilities of what type of human it would be. Freaky huh!

It could be a ginger, a black woman and white man, have a baby, the baby can actually come out, fully white! Amazing! or fully Black, or mixed! This is great for evolution.

Mixing genes is a good thing.

Although, are we mixing souls, lol silly mormons.

I'd say life begins, when the kid develops reason. Then they become their own person, not a copy of the parent, but an actual person. Although... this would kill of 70% of the planet most likely!

I'd just like to know, when it's appropriate for a woman, to have an abortion, and donate the stem cells to science, (ooooh science lightning strikes and thunder growls).

Remember, where not trying to heal the blind by shoving dirt in their eyes. Science is good.

Originally posted by Wyn Hawks
..."the soul" is a romantic notion, myth, folklore... i would give it no consideration in an abortion decision or anything else - except maybe philosophical discussions...

Well it's been trespassing on science for quite some time. From human cloning, etc etc etc I could go on.

So it could use some discussing.

Mother Teresa and so on, have been extremely against this, and many, "BLINDLY" follow her, thinking she was God's toenail, and must be licked and praised. Without any research other then following the crowd.

Why the hate for science, why?

reply to post by St Vaast


I read a book about a year or so ago called life between lives by Michael Newton on the same subject. His subjects stated that generally the soul does not enter the body for the first time prior to the third trimester. His subjects also stated that the newly incarnated soul may spend much of their time outside of the body up until the first year after birth.

[edit on 14-8-2009 by harvib]

I am pretty sure stem cells can be obtained through other means than abortion.
Science is a wonderful thing, but just because we CAN do something doesn't mean we should.

According to the Tibetans, the soul incarnates at the 49th day. Dr. Rick Strassman who authored "'___', the Spirit Molecule" found that this is also the time when there is a massive release of '___' AND that's when the developing fetus becomes sexed.

Therefore, abortion should be banned after the 40th day.

Which would mean that woman must be responsible enough to do ruitine pregancy tests if they are not using birth control, because if they waited until missing a period, it could be too late.

Just imagine if there is such a thing as incarnation or reincarnation, and you enter this new body, only to have that life terminated.

It's a disgrace, and ought to be outlawed after the 40th day, imo.

reply to post by OmegaPoint


Okay then, in my opinion, abortions should not be considered a form of birth control.

reply to post by OmegaPoint


That's great, if you could, provide a link for me, it's a good straight answer, now their are few tibetans, i'm not sure we could make a stand off of them alone.

Originally posted by calmbutwary
I am pretty sure stem cells can be obtained through other means than abortion.
Science is a wonderful thing, but just because we CAN do something doesn't mean we should.

Yes, through ambilical cords that were thrown to waste for a long time, and now hold stem cells. And have had good and no effects when used.

I believe stem cells, are ultimately the best thing we have.

Now if we can study them and ultimately make a wishful thinking here, make a prototype of them, then imagine, a new leg for amputees, cardia diseases would be a limited killer!

We could live longer! We may even find a way through this stepping stone to live forever. The Lake of Youth, or whatever... :/

49 days after conception is my guess.

This is the day the pineal gland is formed. It is also the day gender is "decided", or begins to show and so forth.

The pineal gland is what makes "reality" for us. It is what produces dreams and things of that nature. As the soul is "consciousness" and the chemicals the pineal gland produces is what affects consciousness.

If you look at south American cultures, you will find they eat plants that produce the same chemicals as the gland, which puts them in a hallucinogenic state where they literally journey to other worlds. They call it the vine of the dead. It's highly illegal in the US, except for a religious group exception.

This gland satanists are known for eating/smoking out of people. Supposedly, all the powerful politicians have "taken from the gland". No idea if that is true, you'll have to check with "gonzo". Reference to it is made in fear and loathing in las vegas.

So, that is my guess, since that is the first sign of consciousness related things. But it's just a guess, I've never done any of those things before, I just studied them a bit while researching consciousness.

49 days is also how long some buddhists say it takes for a soul to be reborn.

You can U2U me if you want more information.