Questioning Liberal and Conservative views on healthcare....

The healthcare debate seems to be dramatically heating up and it seems as if people are very fired up about it...on both sides...and I understand why both are angry.

I hope that people on the left understand that they will not get their coveted public option....and the right will not get what they want in health care reform either.

What we will get is something everyone will hate....a compromise....and I sense that people have had just about enough of it all. Regardless of what the various news agencies may be saying...people are angry...on the left and the right....it's just that people have finally had a chance to voice their anger and get a chance to make their argument.

I don't like that insurance companies are basically running a monopoly on health care...but I also cringe at the thought of the government running our health care as well.

This is the main problem...no one has any trust left in their government and I feel this will continue to get worse. No matter what the result is...their is going to be a large portion of this country that is going to be fighting mad.

I also find myself disgusted that "The Left" are attacking the insurance corporations....and sometimes rightfully so...yet flat out IGNORE Obama's blatant ties to major corporations and bankers.....GE is a major one.

Two questions for you...one for Conservatives...and one for Liberals....

Conservatives....do you put more trust in a corporate health insurance company that has the bottom line of making a profit than an entity that is non profit..with the lives of human beings at stake?

Liberals....do you put faith in our government..who by most peoples admission...is completely tainted by corporate lobbyists and special interests groups...and believe that THEY will actually have your best interests at heart?

No one seems to answer these questions..instead everyone just rails against the opposite of what they want....

What would I like to see happen? Break up the insurance company's monopoly on health care....and then make them non profit...this is really the only government involvement I would support...and would drive prices down.

Quite honestly...I don't trust either entity with 17 percent of our economy...and neither should any of you.

The insurance companies HAVE to be broken up. It's too much power.

I'd also like to add....

No REAL healthcare reform will happen until lobbyists are banned from Congress....and by that....Campaign finance reform is needed before I could put ANY FAITH in my government...and everyone else should as well.

I don't understand how anyone can side with the Republicans or Democrats when we both know that both sides are corrupted by lobbyists and special interests...yet people are willing to make a leap of faith for it...hoping that maybe things have changed...when in reality...they have not.

(Edited to change title and edited post slightly)

[edit on 5-8-2009 by David9176]

reply to post by David9176

The insurance companies HAVE to be broken up. It's too much power.

Oh they will be broken up alright. They will be totally destoryed in favor of a Single Payer system, as that is what the Liberals are really shooting for.

reply to post by grapesofraft

Oh they will be broken up alright. They will be totally destoryed in favor of a Single Payer system, as that is what the Liberals are really shooting for.

I know what they want. That's not what I'm asking you...as you obviously are conservative.

do you put more trust in a corporate health insurance company that has the bottom line of making a profit than an entity that is non profit...with lives of human beings at stake?

Give me a straight answer.

reply to post by David9176


Yes, it is getting scary for the simple fact that some of these people are going just a bit overboard and I think it's going to get worse.

I would rather see the corporate insurance companies as non profits. I personally have never had a problem with any insurance I've ever had, other than not covering certain things and I've passed on them. However, with the super duper universal healthcare I'd probaby not get them then either due to age or just plain old waiting! A good restructuring of insurance companies is definitly in order.

And David, that sure is a precious little one you have there!

reply to post by David9176


I believe that a for profit company will do more to control its costs since it gets the reward of increased profit. So for profit companies create better competition.

Having said that there is little difference between a profit and non profit company. Non-profits just wiggle the finances around and pay the excess funds to the board.

State Farm is non-profit I believe and they arent really any different than any other insurance company. Are their rates cheaper?

EDIT: My bad I think I was wrong about State Farm being non profit.

[edit on 8/5/2009 by grapesofraft]

reply to post by opal13

Yes, it is getting scary for the simple fact that some of these people are going just a bit overboard and I think it's going to get worse.

I agree...but this is anger from both sides that has been building...no one is getting what they want. Why is that? I listen to both sides of the argument and try to come to my own judgement on matters....and I believe that breaking up the health insurance companies and going nonprofit is the way to go....but as i stated...it will never happen unless lobbyists are taken out of government.

I don't believe that people are entitled to everything...I believe things have to be earned...but there is one thing that I will never believe that people need to earn...

And that's the right to live.

And David, that sure is a precious little one you have there!

Thank you Opal!

In all the bashing of the protestors at town hall meetings and all the race cards being played I think people are losing sight that these corporations/lobbyists are backing both sides of the issues. The only winner in all this will ultimately be them. The gov't and these corporations care about one thing and one thing only, protecting their bottom line.

The system does have a lot of problems. I don't think it's right that someone pays into an insurance policy/company and then that company tells them they're not going to cover it due to "pre-exisiting" conditions. Why not a law of some kind that says if they do find that, then a full refund must be repaid back to the person. I think it's total robbery. Do I want the gov't invovled dicating what care is apporpriate or not? No. There's no easy way to fix this system they way the overall economic system is set up. As long as you have a system that thrives on people being in perpetual debt, you can't really do anything.

I'm still amazed that these senators/reps are even having town meetings and they haven't even read the bill. How can you possibly try to convince people to support something that you don't even know what's in it? I think the overall point of the healthcare debate is that the gap between the gov't and the people it "serves" is very wide. There's no way that gap can ever be filled as long as we're constantly told how dissenters are rascist and staged and supporters are just kool-aid drinking Obama lovers. Main st is basically warring with itself at the behest of the powers that be.

I think there is room for some kind of hybrid system. Routine visits and ER visits covered by some sort of public heatlhcare system. More serious hopsital stays/surgies covered by competing insurance companies. One of the overall problems with our current system is that a lof of medical problems aren't caught early cause people are terrifed of going to the DR due to the high cost so small things become big things and one way or the other they're sunk. I think if we have a system that can catch things early enough it could work out a lot better overall in the long run.

reply to post by grapesofraft

I believe that a for profit company will do more to control its costs since it gets the reward of increased profit. So for profit companies create better competition.

There is no competition with a monopoly..and that is what we have with the current system. Health insurance companies are EXEMPT from anti-trust laws. You are aware they are spending 1.3 million dollars a day lobbying politicians in washington right?

reply to post by Kords21

In all the bashing of the protestors at town hall meetings and all the race cards being played I think people are losing sight that these corporations/lobbyists are backing both sides of the issues. The only winner in all this will ultimately be them. The gov't and these corporations care about one thing and one thing only, protecting their bottom line.

Well stated!!!!

Main st is basically warring with itself at the behest of the powers that be.

Yes!!!!!

Routine visits and ER visits covered by some sort of public heatlhcare system.

ER costs is a huge problem...for everyone. It's just too expensive...far more expensive than going to a family doctor. Most people who are uninsured go to the ER and are unable to pay the insane costs...which raises the cost to everyone. Plus the amount of Doctors that can practice in the US is limited to keep their wages up...which to me is crazy.

This is just a few of the many many problems with healthcare....and something absolutely has to be done...the problem is that I don't trust anyone to fix it...and sometimes I wonder how anyone else can either.

Support Insurance corporations...or support government corrupted by corporations to fix it?

There is no right answer...it's a lose/lose situation...IMO.

Great post btw.

reply to post by David9176


Well I would gladly spend 1.3 million per day to protect my company from being disolved by a Socialist government. Wouldnt you?

reply to post by grapesofraft

Well I would gladly spend 1.3 million per day to protect my company from being disolved by a Socialist government. Wouldnt you?

Or instead of using that money to lower costs and save lives? Our government is already a capitalism/socialism mix...which is ran by corporations. Not to mention..you are defending an entity that doesn't give a flying F about you.

Why won't you let yourself see that the biggest world corporate players have gigantic sway in all of our laws enacted in our government? You are making the Limbaugh/Hannity argument...and that argument is flawed...as that is the argument for the rich.

I'm not supporting large government...in fact...as many know here...I'm completely against big government.

Ask yourself why government has become as large as it has....and you will see that both sides of the aisle are tainted with corruption.

Capitalism cannot work without a cap...I honestly believe that. The end result is what we have now...they gobble up and suffocate small business and taint/corrupt all levels of government.

"Health insurance companies are EXEMPT from anti-trust laws."

What anti-trust laws? The ones which are routinely ignored by a multitude of large industries? Or the anti-trust laws which are routinely not enforced by the Government?

reply to post by David9176


Yeah, ER and hospital costs overall are just ridiculous. I work in healthcare and during my time at the Army Burn Unit the waste of money on supplies and such would blow your mind. My idea on the hybrid system just an idea, I don't think there is any perfect way to do this as things currently stand. Either way, the average American will lose, doesn't matter if you're on the left or the right.

The way things are going and being egged on by the MSM we can take a moral victory from it. No foreign army destroyed this country, we did it ourselves.

reply to post by grapesofraft


Liberals are supporting no such thing. What an outrageous comment.
I have no intention of giving up my private insurance and neither does anyone else I know. The program the government is proposing is not for me and people like me. It has nothing to do with with being a liberal or a conservative. It has to do with being without health insurance.

reply to post by SphinxMontreal

What anti-trust laws? The ones which are routinely ignored by a multitude of large industries? Or the anti-trust laws which are routinely not enforced by the Government?

I know! Believe me...I know.....

Ironically...Bill Clinton is responsible for much of this. He was hugely corporate owned. Yes...he raised taxes on the wealthy while in office....but also passed NAFTA...which completely nullified it...he also allowed speculation on oil prices...Clinton should go down as one of the worst Presidents in history IMO. I made a thread about corporate influence not long ago...the link is in my sig.

reply to post by David9176

No one seems to answer these questions..instead everyone just rails against the opposite of what they want....

David, good evening.
The reason no one seems to answer these questions is that these two alternatives are nothing more than Morton's Fork.
Both alternatives are completely unacceptable. Until someone as wise as Solomon comes up with a real alternative, these debate will go nowhere.

Would you rather die by electrocution or the gas chamber? I refuse to accept either alternative.

The real solution to the disagreement regarding the bill involves something many will not do. Read the bill.

The challenges it addresses can not be understood without reading it.

Other than that, what exactly is there to consider that involves 'opinion'?

What exactly is the challenge from a perspective of 'price' as opposed to 'cost.'?

What exactly is the challenge from a perspective of results vs. investment?

What is the profit, and how is it's value determined?

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

Both alternatives are completely unacceptable.

I agree. Our country is far headed into complete bankruptcy if things stay as they are...yet I cannot fathom the thought of having a corrupted government have so much control over my life, my wife's, or my daughters.

Not to mention...another huge problem with universal health care....it could possibly pay for abortions...which to many people would be COMPLETELY unacceptable.

reply to post by David9176

Not to mention...another huge problem with universal health care....it could possibly pay for abortions...which to many people would be COMPLETELY unacceptable.

Yes, and I would be one of them. I don't want to reflect the thread though, so I'll leave it there.
Anyway, politicians have been trying to get government run health care for 70 years now. No one had succeeded, because no one has come up with a REAL alternative. It's either death by electrocution or death by the gas chamber.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

Anyway, politicians have been trying to get government run health care for 70 years now. No one had succeeded, because no one has come up with a REAL alternative.

True. I'm sure some of the people who have wanted it had good intentions...and maybe some do know....but if you can't trust your government then how can you trust them with the health of your children?

You can't.

It's just sad that I can no longer look at any government enacted law without looking for something that's corrupted..as there always seems to be a large corporate player profiting.

The American people...the average man and woman...ALWAYS LOSE.

It's not right.