Originally posted by MrNECROS
I have posted a quite clear description of the 32nd Degree as presented in "The Book of Ancient Accepted Scottish Rite Freemasonry (1884)" and anyone who can read English will see it is as claimed.

As mentioned, anyone who wants a description of the 32° initiation ceremony as practiced in the Mother Jurisdiction need only read Dr. Hutchens’ “A Bridge To Light”, which gives details of all the rites from the 4° to the 32°. The book is given as a gift to all new 32° Masons, but is available to the general public for 10 bucks.
I am very familiar with Brother McLenachan’s book. I own a personal copy, and we have 3 or 4 copies in our Lodge library. But there’s a few things you don’t seem to understand about the Scottish Rite.
Firstly, McLenachan’s Obedience was the Supreme Council of England, which operates independently from the Mother Council. The English ritual of the Scottish Rite is used only in the UK, not in any other country.
Secondly, McLenachan’s descriptions do not completely match the ritual used today in England. In his day, the degrees were not actually conferred in ceremonial form, they existed only on paper. A 3° Mason who was approved for membership in the Rite was given the 32° by proclamation, and then they gave him the rituals to study. The rituals described by Bro. McLenachan were never actually staged.
In the US, Bro. Albert Pike, Grand Commander, re-wrote the old rituals to make them be easily staged in an actual ceremony. The first of these were the 4°, 14°, 18°, 30°, and 32°, which became the mandatory degrees. Eventually, the other degrees were likewise revised, but their ceremonial conferral is optional.
England soon followed suit, but their system is a bit different. In the USA, the above 5 degrees must be conferred in full form, which often occurs during a one day class. Thus, in the USA, practically all Scottish Rite Masons hold at least the 32°. In the UK, the mandatory degrees are the 18°, 30°, and 32°. All Scottish Rite Masons in the UK hold at least the 18°, since the 4°-17° are issued by proclamation (the rituals of these degrees are then given to the new Knight Rose Croix for study). After this, in England, there is a waiting period for the 30°, and another for the 32°. For more info about the English system of Scottish Rite Masonry, see “Rose Croix” by Ill. Bro. A.C.F. Jackson, 33°.

Incidentally "Fiat Lux" is the motto for the 20th Degree "Grand Master of All Symbolic Lodges", one who can assume the the gavel in ANY symbolic lodge providing there are none present superior in rank.

This is indeed found in the Old Charge of the 20°, as well in the Constitutions of 1786 of the Supreme Council, adopted by the Grand Consistory of Louisiana. It is outdated, and no longer applies. This Charge was eliminated from the ritual by Albert Pike in 1871, and in other Jurisdictions a short while later.
Originally, the Supreme Councils were chartering Symbolic Lodges (sometimes called “Blue Lodges”) which were not recognized by the Grand Lodges of the York Rite. In the old Scottish Rite Lodges, a Mason of the 20° could assume the Gavel because he had been named Grand Master.
Eventually, a Concordant was reached, and the Supreme Councils of the Scottish Rite agreed to recognize the ultimate authority of the York Rite Grand Lodges for the Blue Degrees. York Rite Grand Lodges do not recognize any degree higher than the Third Degree, and today, no Scottish Rite Mason can assume the Gavel in a Symbolic Lodge unless he has been elected the Master of the Lodge, has the permission of the Master, is a York Rite Grand Master, or a District Deputy Grand Master.

Fiat Lvx.



[Edited on 17-5-2004 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by MrNECROS
To quote a favorite movie of mine "Never lie unless you know the truth."

A pity that you don't practice what you preach.
If you did, you wouldn't have been caught blatantly lying all those times in other threads.

And that's the trouble with people like you, Necros. You have been found to be wanting in the truth department and yet you still demand that others give you credibility.

You've cried "wolf" too many times.

Name one time I've lied in a thread, I've only posted 20 times so you won't have to look hard.
It might seem like a lot more 'cos the truth hurts when it hits home.

You really are impeneratrible aren't you - the statement at the top of this page reads nothing like the one you've just posted and they both fail to account for the declarations in the aformentioned book which you falsely claim to own.

Does this finally mean that you accept that the 32nd Degree revolves around a suit of armour?

I can't see how in regards to your last post you can say otherwise after the series of self contradictions you have posted in this thread.

Thanx for the links though - I'll see what happens if I order these books and cross-reference them.

One thing to ask though - why have the rituals changed since Pike's day - have the morals and teachings of Freemasonry changed also, if so then how can it be considered ancient and accepted?

Brethern, those who refuse to see the light, will continually remain in North corner of the lodge, "The place of darkness"

Originally posted by MrNECROS
You really are impeneratrible aren't you - the statement at the top of this page reads nothing like the one you've just posted and they both fail to account for the declarations in the aformentioned book which you falsely claim to own.

As mentioned previously, I own a personal copy of the book, and my Lodge library has copies (which most large Lodge libraries do, since it was a popular and widely-distributed book in both the US and UK). And, also as previously mentioned, the actual rituals that McLenachan spoke of existed on paper only, and were never actually conferred ceremonially.

Does this finally mean that you accept that the 32nd Degree revolves around a suit of armour?

Read my lips: there is NO suit of armor in the 32° as practiced in the Mother Jurisdiction. The degree isn’t even one of chivalry, as when Pike revised it over a century ago, it was transformed into a degree of philosophy. As I’ve previously mentioned (and as Hutchens mentions on page 320 of “A Bridge To Light”), the Candidate for the 32° is clothed in the white robe of a Magus, the Apron and Cordon, and is crowned with laurel.

I can't see how in regards to your last post you can say otherwise after the series of self contradictions you have posted in this thread.

Nothing I have written here is contradictory. I am an officer in the Consistory, have conferred the degree many times, and have spent hours memorizing the ritual in order to perform it. You, on the other hand, have never witnessed a Masonic ceremony, and are completely reliant upon an outdated book and a website (Freemasonry Watch) which offers nothing but error.

Thanx for the links though - I'll see what happens if I order these books and cross-reference them.

If you actually do this, you will understand what I’ve been saying.

One thing to ask though - why have the rituals changed since Pike's day - have the morals and teachings of Freemasonry changed also, if so then how can it be considered ancient and accepted?

The Rite is “ancient and accepted” in the sense that its philosophical and ethical teachings have existed since antiquity. It is not pretended that the organization or ritual itself is ancient. The Rite was founded in 1801, when the French Rite of Perfection of 25 degrees (which had existed since the mid-1700’s) was merged with the Philosophical Rite of 8 degrees.
These degrees were translated from French to English, but were NEVER ACTUALLY WORKED. This is an important point you haven’t seem to grasped. Until Pike revised them, no one actually performed these ceremonies. No one is dragging suits of armor around to Lodges. Initiates were simply proclaimed 32°, then given the manuscripts of the rituals to study.
Pike re-wrote them so they could be conferred in ceremonies. In letters to Mackey, Pike wrote that the degrees were in large part meaningless, and taught nothing (see Pike’s “The Book of the Words”, available from the Supreme Council’s bookstore, whose link I gave previously). Pike, who was a philosopher and mystic, transformed the Rite from a French pseudo-chivalric fraternity into a School of Philosophy.

Fiat Lvx.



[Edited on 19-5-2004 by Masonic Light]

I discussed this "suit of armour" thing with some members of my valley last night, and they came up with an excellent point I hadn't considered:

"Alex, are you saying this guy thinks that we have a suit of armour on the representative candidate in the 32nd? How would we make sure it fit? We get guys in all kinds of shapes coming into the rite. Look at you, for God's sake!"

This got a big laugh. I am 6' 8" tall and 300 pounds (less than that, actually, as I've been losing a lot of weight recently (clean living!)).

But really, Mr. Necros, do you think that most Valleys (Vallies? Neither one looks right) have the money it would take to have a new, complete suit of armour made every year and form fitted to a candidate without that candidate's knowledge (since the degree is kept secret?). Also, since in my jurisdication, the whole class participates in the degree, I'd assume they'd all have suits of armour... that's 15 class members on a very, very, sparse year, nearer to 30 most years... do you think we buy 20 new suits of armour a year? We're having trouble raising $50,000 for a Dyslexia learning centre, and that's in Canadian $!!!!

Even though us Brits like to be traditional (and you gotta admit - suits of armour are great!!! ) the closest we get to any sort of regalia like that, in any degree, is a pair of gauntlets and a sword.
The later degrees tend to be conferred a lot later in life over here and it would be hard to imagine some of my 60 and 70 year old brethren, staggering around our temple dressed as Ivanhoe.

Regalia over here costs a fortune and there's no way individuals could afford to buy armour, our lodges certainly wouldn't stump up either - and who would polish the darned thing?

Originally posted by Leveller
Even though us Brits like to be traditional (and you gotta admit - suits of armour are great!!! ) the closest we get to any sort of regalia like that, in any degree, is a pair of gauntlets and a sword.

In the US, most Valleys have a wardrobe department, with some of the costumes being made to look like armor. In the 29°, the degree team’s costumes actually look sort of like chain metal, but these aren’t used in the 32°.
In the 32°, the Camp Guards wear a costume which consists of a white garment whose length runs to the knees, with a Double Headed Eagle on the breast, a red cape, and a chevalier’s hat. The Officers wear tuxedos, swords, and Degree Caps. The Candidate is introduced wearing a black robe, although in the course of the ceremony, he is divested of it and given a white one, as well as being clothed in the Apron and other regalia.
A great book called “Valley of the Craftsmen” was released several years ago, which shows many of the costumes we use in the Scottish Rite Degrees in the U.S. If you’re interested, it can be ordered online.

Fiat Lvx.

Your ignorance, arrogance and self-denial is amazing - even when faced with an authentic printed manuscript you fail to recognize it.
The rest of the book will be web-published soon and then everyone who wants to read it can.

I've got some things to attend to in the mean time - nothing posted in the above comments is contributing to this debate - you have collectively posted more waffle than the Knight of The Sun Ritual.

If this rite was never practiced then why (by your own evidence) is its tracing board ("The Camp") the main motif on a 32nd Degree Apron? (See page 471 & 475)


"Stand-by captain, we are about to go to bullsh*t level 9!"

Originally posted by MrNECROS
I've got some things to attend to in the mean time

Like what? Creating more false accounts and pretending to be a freemason?




As I've stated before, your credibility around here is zero. Pulling other people for what they write is just complete and utter hypocrisy on your part. I dunno if you've noticed, but what the masons here have written, has been drawn from their own experiences - they haven't needed to get their point across by pretending to be other people and claimed falsities as you have so blatantly done.

I've been on ATS for over a year now and in that time I've never put anyone on ignore. But to tell the truth, I'm sorely tempted to do so now, so I don't have to read any more of your drivel.

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by Leveller]

Likewise. This guy keeps repeating the same drivel over and over, even though it has been completely debunked, and references given. He also keeps asking the same questions, even though each time we answer, we all seem to be using progressively simpler words, hoping in vain he will eventually comprehend what we're talking about.
Since he's now only going round in circles, not debating but apparently only wanting attention, I see no need to assist him in continuing his charade either. Since his entire argument has been refuted in previous posts, with appropriate links and books listed, I will simply refer our readers to the archives, instead of wasting time repeating myself.

Fiat Lvx.

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by Masonic Light]

Simpler terms...hmmm... yes I guess the whole graduation from this is an old non-standard rite that was never practised in the USA and Charles T McClenechan had nothing to do with the Supreme Council to ....ummmmm....go find another book....look a monkey...oh here is another link with absolutly nothing to do with this one posted by someone that I'm claiming is you pretending to be someone else....where is the exit....why do you keep asking me the same question all the time, I've already told you you are completely wrong and all my friends have too so that makes you wrong ...etc...etc...etc...

See you in a week.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
He also keeps asking the same questions, even though each time we answer, we all seem to be using progressively simpler words, hoping in vain he will eventually comprehend what we're talking about.
[Edited on 19-5-2004 by Masonic Light]

As you can see I have stayed out of this one. Well for two reasons... I am in the York Rite... and I think that he just wants to get everyone worked up or he is looking for points, so getting you to argue with him does that. It is obvious that he just wants to argue and it is obvious not a brother. It would be easy to tell in this one point..... He would not continue the argument in public if he felt you to be a fellow mason. The harmony would be respected and this argument would be taken offline and discussed as a brother.......

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by JCMinJapan]

Originally posted by JCMinJapan
[He would not continue the argument in public if he felt you to be a fellow mason. The harmony would be respected and this argument would be taken offline and discussed as a brother.......

Necros hasn't claimed to be a Mason. Instead, when he first began posting, he conjured sort of an amibiguous tale about a group of Masons attempting to coerce him into joining, which he refused to do. This little story can be seen to be bogus from a number of viewpoints, especially considering the fact that no one is admitted until he requests admission personally, has two Brothers to vouch for his character, clears a background check which he gives the Lodge permission to run, and is approved by the Lodge unanimously. I just don’t think this guy would make the cut, much less have Brethren begging him to join, lol.
His only knowledge of the Scottish Rite comes from “The Book of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry” by Brother Charles T. McClenachan, 33°. This is actually a pretty good book from a historical perspective, but has little relevance to the ritual used by the Supreme Council 33° for the Southern Jurisdiction of the USA, which adopted the Pike Work officially in 1871.
McClenachan’s book does not consist of the current ritual, but rather of ritual work translated fom the French, including the symbolism and battery of each degree. My copy was published by Macoy in 1914 as a reprint, but Macoy has ceased publishing it since that time. Reprints are now available from Kessinger.
In the description of the 32°, McClenachan writes: “The Chivalric nature of Masonry is explained by the Knightly Armor of the Templar, which is buckled upon the novitiate piece by piece.”
Originally, according to the early Constitutions, this degree was one of chivalry, with the “Royal Secret” supposedly being a plan devised by Frederick the Great to reconquer the Holy Land under the Banner of the Cross. In his Legenda of the 32°, Pike rightly stated that this entire notion was absurd, and eliminated the Templar and chivalric symbolism from the Degree, with the exception of the Camp. The Camp was preserved not because of military significance, but because he be believed the geometric structure of it to contain a profound mystical meaning which was the true Royal Secret.
McClenachan’s descriptions of the other Degrees also do not represent the Pike Work. For example, his description of the 31° details a ceremony wherein the Officers represent a Tribunal in the middle ages. However in Pike’s 31°, which has been worked since 1871 in the Mother Jurisdiction, the Lodge represents the Court of the Dead as outlined in the Book of Coming Forth By Day, the Papyrus of Ani.
The symbolism of justice being meted out is preserved, but the drama of the Degree is very different from what McClenachan describes. The Officers represent the Egyptian Deities, and this Degree is my Valley’s big stage production, with elaborate costumes, referring to Osiris (the Presiding Officer), Thoth (who wears a mask of an ibis), Kua-Mutef (who wears the mask representing a desert ass), etc.
The Candidate represents a recently deceased Egyptian architect who has brought before the Court of the Dead for judgement, with the entire story being based on the Papyrus of Ani. Seeing this dramatic and beautiful degree alone is worth the price of initiation fees into the Rite. Further descriptions of this degree can be found in Rex Hutchens’ “A Bridge To Light”.

Fiat Lvx.


[Edited on 19-5-2004 by Masonic Light]

Masonic Light... Thanks for the info. I did not know that....

Originally posted by Masonic Light
However in Pike’s 31°, which has been worked since 1871 in the Mother Jurisdiction, the Lodge represents the Court of the Dead as outlined in the Book of Coming Forth By Day, the Papyrus of Ani.

Some lucky people. I've always been fascinated by stories I heard of a court of the dead in the SMJ. Sadly, up here in Canada we have neither the court of the dead nor the medieval tribunal that you describe. We have something completely different, which is still tremendously good, but can be somewhat dry in places. Still, it is fun because it involves several apartments, and I'm sure it would be even more fun in a Temple with the proper set up (my valley meets in a very nice building, but it is multi-function, not dedicated to the Scottish Rite.

On the other hand, from what I understand, you have a lot of communicated degrees down there, whereas we try our best to communicate as few degrees as possible up here. Still, someday I sincerely hope to visit the SMJ and experience the degrees as Pike envisioned them.