Do Not Read This if You are Religiously Bound

Originally posted by Edrick

Originally posted by inval
If people would only stop assuming their mind can answer all questions, and just take a look inside all would be revealed

There are some questions that "Internal Dialogue" cannot possibly answer.

Tis folly to presume otherwise.

-Edrick

any question that cannot be answered internally, simply does not matter

why make life complicated, when it is in fact not complicated at all
I know it may be hard to some, but when you can just simply let life be, you will enjoy it much more

[edit on 8-7-2009 by inval]

Once you know the prime creator on a personal level , you will realize you were mistaken. Only those who have had a near death experience know the truth. Others are merely guessing. Thank you, Magantice

reply to post by Edrick

Don't be too hasty saying that there is no soul.

Cognition depends upon biology.

Biology depends upon chemistry.

Chemistry depends upon atomic Mechanics.

And Atomic mechanics depend on Quantum mechanics.

And at that level... OBSERVATION is VERY important to what actually occurs.

Only in that it is a trigger.

The popular idea that observation determines how a wave function collapses is wrong. Quantum mechanics does not in any way privilege consciousness as a determinant of physical events. No conscious determination is made in any case; none can be made, as Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle prevents it.

Besides, consciousness is not a precondition to be an 'observer'. Any measuring device will do just as well.

reply to post by Astyanax


Not entirely true, the choice itself is decisive.

www.bottomlayer.com...


To be, is to be percieved.


[edit on 8-7-2009 by OmegaPoint]

reply to post by OmegaPoint

No, this does not mean what you think it does. Here's why:

1. Wheeler's experiment is currently impossible in practice and its consequences are purely theoretical.
   
   
2. In theoretical terms, all it really demonstrates is wave-particle duality. The light isn't 'deciding' whether to be a particle or wave. It is both, and depending on whether you stick a wave detector or a particle detector in its path, it will appear as either a wave or a particle.
   
   
3. When using the particle detector, you cannot by any means force the particle to go through the slit of your choice. It makes its own choice.

[edit on 8/7/09 by Astyanax]

Originally posted by inval
any question that cannot be answered internally, simply does not matter

"What speed should I be going here on this road?"
The sign says 55. You feel it's 85. Most likely, the cop's not going to care. Therefore, a question that can only be answered externally with any confidence does matter

I say that not to use a mundane example to mock, but rather to point out that there are some questions for which the only way we can be assured of having the right answer is through external observation as well as searching. There could have been three times before that where you knew in your heart the speed limit was 35, 45 or 50, and were right. That doesn't mean you're going to nail it every time. Humans are wishywashy, and we're often moved by circumstance, fear, desire, or even the absurd.

Just because a random thought comes into our heads, even on spiritual matters, doesn't make it true. I like the verse from the Bible in 1 Thessalonians 5:21, "Test everything, keep that which is good." Even if you're not a Christian, it is a wise way to address information coming externally as well as internally. Test it, don't just run with it and hope that the roof stays on.

reply to post by Astyanax


True on a specific level, but I believe their point, as mine was, was to demonstrate something larger, not to discuss physics for the sake of physics.

reply to post by junglejake


Sorry if my previous replies were a bit misunderstood... I meant them to be on more of a spiritual level then "oh well this road sign tells me to..."
Of course we cannot completely stop looking externally for some answers such as this.

Oh and I agree, it is always a good idea to examine the answers you receive

reply to post by inval


I did, too, but used a mundane example everyone would be familiar with to make the point

I don't know about you, but I've received plenty of internal "answers" that were completely contradictory to other internal "answers". Then, in trying to muddle through that, it turns out there can be a third response that contradicts the other two!

In addition to that, there have been times I've been depressed or hopeful about something. My inner monologue goes some places that, at the time, make perfect sense and seem pretty reasonable. Sometimes, I've told others what I thought, and even as it left my mouth I felt like an idiot. Other times, I've told others what I thought, and they pointed out the hypocrisy or lies riddled through my words due to the cloud covering my eyes, be it dark or rosy. Sometimes I saw, other times it took life to point out the absurdity. And there were still other times I didn't say anything, just accepted it as truth, and would have to work on amending it somewhere down the line, sometimes even decades later.

My point being, internal answers, even with spiritual things, can be a good thing, and can certainly be accurate. However, they can also be extremely deceptive without that external search. After all, and I mean no offense by this, neither you, I or anyone else on this board, world, or whatever, is going to be the one and only person who suddenly "gets it". A portion of courage exists in sharing your beliefs despite that. A portion of humility exists in being receptive when someone disagrees.

Of course our internal answers can be incorrect. There is a struggle within all of us between our intuition and our fears and our hopes, and its often difficult to tell which is speaking...though i do find that the more you follow "the path" whatever that may be, the more often intuition comes through, synchronicities, which are considered by many cultures to be a sign of right movement.

But, just the fact that we have correct intuitions at all, which are far beyond anything accountable by random chance, seems to indicate that something else is going on behind the scenes. Not that we can understand it, or that we can control it, only that it is there. My intuition has at times made me avoid tragedies on whims, and has guided me to directly to a specific thing i was looking for in a building i had never been in, in a building full of almost identical items, very first time, at a point where someone had actually misplaced it. Far beyond random chance just in itsself, but when taken with the regular such occurances in my life, quite demonstrative for me.

reply to post by Astyanax


The choice is delayed, until AFTER the wave or particle has passed through the slit. There's back action, depending on the choice made, which shows that the photon isn't any "thing" until the choice is made, then it actualizes. This experiment proves it and has been conducted. And what matters isn't which slit it goes through, but whether it manifests as a particle, or a wave, depending on the choice of the observer.

You've been proven wrong. You need to take another look at this more closely.

[edit on 8-7-2009 by OmegaPoint]

And let us not forget the further evidence, as lined out in the "secret lives of trees", where numerous studies measuring electrical activity within plants have shown that they have an awareness of the intent of people around them to do them harm, or when their owners are coming home, etc, that lie far outside the realm of "chemical reactions", and suggest some other form of perception that transcends our normally held ideas of seeing, hearing, etc.

reply to post by gandhi


Actually, i never said that the spirit doesn't exist, nor that the spirit has been fully explained, what i'm saying is that feelings of connections to deities can be examined as the result of chemical release in you body.
It is the same spirit all higher forms of life including dogs, cats, mouse, elephants, lizards, crocs, birds, lobsters etc. possess, and they do not jump to the conclusion it is a supernatural entity, unless of higher intelligence, which only evolved about 75,000 yrs ago, i am still on my journey.
I do not like it when people say, well all this is just god talking to you, by replacing an unknown, the cause of divine experiences, with another unknown, the supernatural. They can be easily explained by scientific inquiry.
For example, we once thought that all living things, except for man, had no soul and were based on 100% primal instincts, yet we have been able to see choices and moral within the animal kingdom, even some of the most unusual events, such as dogs risking their own lifes to save cats, and penguins and bird colonies of the same species with variety in mating and head selection rituals, as if they were, civillized and moral.
We have also seen that most animals will lose in 20 yrs, more than 80% of the matter which makes their bodies, and has it replaced, as if it were kept together by a mysterious force, to explain what that force is we examine, and there are many explanations which to previous scientists may have been seen as craziness and the supernatural, such as the strange experiments in electric conduct of plants where they are damaged.
What im trying to say is, no it is not a god, its is self inquiry and natural events that whether solved, or remain mystery, are still never supernatural.

I never said there is no such thing as a soul, the electric conducts is based on the assertion that the soul is a physical entity, not supernatural, that is why there is quantum mind theory to explain electric and subatomic conduct of brain frequencies, asserting that our cells have life force in them which reacts to sensory perception, which can be measured scientifically as an evident force.
Trees with conduct:
www.springerlink.com...

Light patterns reacting to thoughts, A scientific study, referenced in the May 2009 edition of Wired and performed by Professor Garret Moddel of the University of Colorado at Boulder, performed an experiment that supports the concept of 'mind over matter': in 2007, Professor Moddel aimed a beam of light at a glass slide and asked his test-subjects to mentally increase the amount of reflected light. With a baseline of 8 percent, the subjects were able to successfully increase the reflection of the beam by .005 percent, and showed a similar success when asked to mentally decrease the amount of reflected light.

And most awesomely,
en.wikipedia.org...(physics)
look at quantum mechanics, spooky what measuring can do to things, and measuring requires analysis.

SO BEFORE ANYONE TRIES TO CHANGE OR MIS READ WHAT I HAVE SAID IN THIS THREAD, READ IT PROPERLY

reply to post by OmegaPoint


That is called the observer effect and is also reactent with Quantum mechanics as stated, i have seen many quantum mechanics documentaries, the quantum mind theory stunned m and i learnt of the double slit experiment.
You may have heard of it?

I want people to actually read what i have written, i am not saying there is no soul.

reply to post by kiwifoot


Dude, check out down the rabbit hole, it is a bit crazy, but alot of it acutally makes sense.

reply to post by Edrick


Edrick, I have read your posts on this thread, and I metaphorically take my hat off to you sir.

It is rare indeed that such a reply is delivered in such a concise and intelligent manner, kudos to you my friend.

Do you think it is possible that we will ever be able to answer this question?

We sense things, we may or may not record the experience, we analyze the experience, then we react, if our reaction is good, then we will keep that in mind, and that is how we learn thing like hot and cold.
Then, we sense things, and record them, and apply them later on.
That is how e learn things like science and mathematics.
We sense things, and if we like it, we want it more.
that is pleasure, if you want more of it, you find it pleasureful, take into account needing is not wanting.
We sense things, and if we dislike it, we dont want it more, and avoid it,
that is discomfort, you attempt to avoid it.
this is how things happen, and alot more events in the brain, neurolinguistic programming and neuroscience explain this easily, and yet some still claim that there is a supernatural ghost within us.
Then we have things like life force, electric current, and particle interference at quantum levels, we all know that there is lots of electrons travelling around, and there are huge reactions between different quantum particles, is it a ghost, or is it just quantum mechanics?
Then we see our emotions are caused by certain chemicals known as ligands, which bind with proteins known as receptors, which signal neurons and alot of electric energy conduction, ghost? no just chemicals and proteins reacting to allow neurons to produce brainwaves.
Etc. but these all make up our consioussness right? hmm, peculiar, if it is all put together it sounds like a computer and a chemicals factory, is that what it is? no, not at all, it is one of the most complex systems to ever naturally evolve, memory, thoughts, choices, amazing.
Did what my first comment say make you feel empty, i hope this one makes you feel unique and full.

reply to post by scared angel


It is our intuition dude, we are all connected as living creatures by the desire to experience, that is why we fear death, i mean, like man, yeah. What motivates us to go on and on is our freakin spirit, and our freakin spirit can be explained through science. We live in a beautiful world man, one that allows us to have knowledge of all, and not just one part of it.