WANTED: Incontrovertable and scientifically established proof that GHOSTS exist

James Randi is not a good example for skeptics to follow. While he has rightly debunked a good deal of hooha in the paranormal field and issued the infamous "challenge," he is the epitomy of closed-minded skeptic. The only reason he made that challenge is because in his mind there is NO SUCH THING AS GHOSTS. And that is how he views ALL evidence. He has made up his mind and it doesn't matter what kind of evidence you present. It is a fake or fraud or one of the 200 other assanine explanations he comes up with. Personally I think we need to look at elctromagnetics or a possible dimensional breach.

reply to post by mr-lizard


Mr-Lizard ... sorry for not replying earlier.

If I understand you correctly, you're hypothesizing that the majority of spiritual activity (ghosts, hauntings, poltergeists, etc) is the result of some kind of "energy" that our minds generate and release and that becomes "stored" in some manner so that we're able to unintentionally interact with it later on. Further, you think that possibly this stored energy also may be able to contain the emotional state (anger, happiness, etc) of the individual at the time the energy was created.

I'm fairly certain that I've come across similar theories to yours before but I'm most certainly not going to say you're wrong as frankly, anything is possible (within reason).

And yet, what you've said is exactly the reason I started this thread in the 1st place ... to highlight the total lack of "definitive knowledge" that is rampant in anything to do with ghosts and spirituality.

You've mentioned the possibility of some kind of mysterious energy being created by our minds and mentioned the various brain wave states (alpha, delta, etc) as possible generators of this energy. The main restriction with this as far as I am aware is that all these brain waves are essentially localized within the brain itself and are so low powered that we have to place sensors on the scalp to detect them at all. They certainly do not have the energy to make it more than a few millimeters outside the body and there is no verifiable recorded/documented instances of anyone being able to generate the necessary power to project these waves many meters away from the body. Also, to generate and project such power levels away from the body, a substantial source of energy must be available to the brain that it can draw upon. But such energy sources within the brain are NOT available. Each brain cell generates only a minute electrical current and even the sum total of all generating brain cells still only amounts to milli-volts of energy ... so unless there is some completely unknown energy generating & directing mechanism within the brain that neuro-science has completely missed, I would tend to think this as a very unlikely explanation. Also, if ghosts ARE the result of some kind of energy, the fact that a ghost normally appears to occupy a specific location also raises additional questions. Unless specifically designed, radiative sources usually radiate their energy in a non-specific and spherical direction e.g. light bulbs. But a ghosts "energy" pattern is seen to be in one place which implies the energy that created the ghost was somehow sent in one direction only ... otherwise that energy would tend to be dispersed in all directions. Again, there is NO apparent mechanism within the brain that can focus and beam any kind of energy into a fixed direction. So even if capable of generating huge amounts of energy, the brain would simply end up radiating that energy in all directions and wasting it.

Yes, I agree with you that the human brain can control devices e.g. prosthetic limbs, computers, etc but in every such case, there is a direct and physical connection between the device being controlled and the brain. prosthetic limbs are controlled by sensors attached to nerve endings on the body which detect the minute electrical signals generated by the brain and operate the device.

Even if we assume the brain somehow under certain conditions manages to generate massive amounts of some kind of "energy" and then somehow manages to broadcast this energy in a controlled and directed manner, there is still the question of how this energy can be trapped and stored within a specific location, allowing it to be "played back" at a later time.

So the closer you look at "how" a ghost may be created, the less believable the "explanations" become.

Ok maybe it's not actually the brain itself, which as you say only generates tiny amounts of power.

But what of the body as a whole? We are literally batteries that emit energy somewhere beyond our body. We are more than our physical cells as proved by the fact then when you turn seven years of age, not a single cell of your body exists that you were born with. You are more than the physical shell.

I've been doing some reading since my last post and have suprised myself with a number of discoveries and theories.

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In the 1930's, Russian scientist Alexander Guvich announced to the world his discovery of an energy field outside of the body. This he discovered was generated by every single cell in the body.

This he called 'mitogenic' radiation which was similar in nature to ultra-violet radiation. This energy could essentially travel cell to cell EVEN WHEN SEPERATED BY QUARTZ.

His work is documented evidence of 'biophotons', which are waves of light emitted by animal and plant cells.

www.edskilling.com...

Before this discovery, in the mid-1800's, Count Von Reichenbach had also experimented with the human energy field (HEF) which he named the 'odic field', which was of a similar nature of the discoveries by James Clerk Maxwell, who demonstrated that electric and magnetic fields travel through space at the speed of light.

Maxwell calculated that the speed of propagation of an electromagnetic field is approximately that of the speed of light. He considered this to be more than just a coincidence, and commented "We can scarcely avoid the conclusion that light consists in the transverse undulations of the same medium which is the cause of electric and magnetic phenomena

scienceworld.wolfram.com...

Going back to Reichenbach and his odic field. He experimented with wire and found that he could project this 'odic field' along a wire at 13 feet per second, and found out that it was actually the density of the wire as opposed to the conductivity of the wire which would affect the speed.

Air currents would also move this part of the odic field. This suggests a composition similar to a gas. Von Reichenbach's experiments suggest the odic or auric field is energetic, like a light wave, and also particulate, like a fluid. Also, he showed the right side of the body as being a positive pole, and the left as negative. This agrees with the ancient Chinese principles of yin and yang.

In 1911 Walter Kilner reported on seeing this field (or aura) as he looked through glass screens and certain dyes. His work the 'human aur' details the varying fields on healthy and sick individuals, suggesting that the electro-magnetic aura can be projected at different variables depending upon the health. He also treated many individuals from many ailments as a result of this technique and even now research into this field continues.

Semyon Davidovich Kirlian, Dr. George De La Warr & Dr. Ruth Drown, Dr. Wilhelm Reich, French microbiologist Gustave Naessens all took this information in different directions.

Semyon Davidovich Kirlian for example took this information (with his wife) and stumbled across the fact that you can take 'photographs' with electricity aka Kirlian photography. Effectively photographing this energy field that surrounds us all, and once again noticing that these energy fields are varying depending on the 'mood' and 'physical health' of an individual.

Many are quick to claim that Kirlian photography is actually a result of 'charged moisture' surrounding the skin and that the aura is simply the molecular moisture that may surround the human body. BUT why brush this aside?

Why not take that as another interesting idea, that ok we have evidence of an outside energy surrounding the body, whether this be an electromagnetic field or charged water vapour*, either way there is an energy that we CAN detect outside our physical shell.

Dr. Robert Becker - of Upstate Medical School. mapped a complex electrical field on the body that was shaped like the body and the central nervous system. He found that this field changes shape and strength with physiological and psychological changes. Continuing his experiments through 1979, he found particles the size of electrons moving through this field.

Along the way, Dr. Robert Becker (Dr. Robert O. Becker, M.D) began to question the effects of electromagnetic radiation on human health. His inquiry had serious ramifications for anyone regularly exposed to radio and television transmissions, as well as 60-Hertz power lines

So outside frequencies can affect our frequencies...

www.monicalevin.com...

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Beal's thesis (Beal, 1996) takes these studies one step further, and looks for a possible substrate to carry this wealth of bioinformation. Reviewing studies done by Dr. Walleczek and his associates, he notes that biosystems' response to electromagnetic fields depend on 1. field frequency 2. field amplitude 3. combination of AC (static) and DC (time-variable) fields 4. internal biodynamic state of the organism 5. the system's capacity for amplification of microphysical field effects 6. the system's capacity to maintain a stable signal (field effect) in the presence of large incoherent perturbations. Noting the exquisite sensitivity ("almost single quantum level") of biosystems to natural and artificial electromagnetic fields, Beal then proposes that liquid crystals (which are an intrinsic part of cell membranes) act as a detector/amplifier/memory storage device for ELF EM patterns in the environment.

Let's read that last line again:

"Beal then proposes that liquid crystals (which are an intrinsic part of cell membranes) act as a detector/amplifier/memory storage device for ELF EM patterns in the environment"

Is this not what I was saying before?

Maybe these 'ghosts' are simply frequencies stored in cavities and are then transmitted and received by us?

I'm still struggling to understand 'how' they are stored, but i'm thinking something along the lines of standing waves, of such low frequency that they have not dispersed, instead trapped in cavities or what not, charged up and waiting for a receiver (like static electricity?)



Incidentally...

* Regarding the idea of charged water vapour, may i suggest researching Dr Masaru Emoto who believes the power of thought (electrical energy) can affect the molecular structure of water.


Interesting links:


www.vxm.com...

pyramidportal.org...

www.is-masaru-emoto-for-real.com...

www.themysticeye.com...

www.emergentmind.org...

www.altcancer.com...

www.spiritofmaat.com... (great link on bio-electrical research)

Thankyou for such an ineresting thread, the more i read the more i think there's a chance we're on to something.

Mr L





[edit on 5-7-2009 by mr-lizard]

Isn't it possible then that our bodies, and electricity in general, can amplify whatever ghosts are composed of enough to make them visible? Like how you can't see certain light spectrums without the proper visual aid from some item or other. We just have to find out what it is but it's hard as they don't exactly sit there for hours to let you study them. Resolve will be the key to getting that kind of proof.

This is probably the closest scientific proof so far :-

www.victorzammit.com...

And here :-

www.victorzammit.com...

You could also take a look at :-

www.worlditc.org...

[edit on 8-7-2009 by paul762]

I couldnt in any sense offer proof...only an experience that I had...and This is NOT a joke...I was about 11 or 12 (im 29 now), in my house, upstairs playing nintendo. Ill give you a quick setup of my room. The chair is in the middle. One dresser with TV i/f/o the chair...my bed behind the chair, second dresser on the right of the chair about 3 feet away. On the 2nd dresser there was a lizard tank (small anoles) and a few stuff animals and junk. Anyway, Im playing games for a good hour, fixated on the TV. A doll, for no reason whatsoever, lifts up about 5 inches off of the dresser (im guessing because I didnt actually see it lift), goes across my face about a foot infront of me (eye level, thats where my 5 inch guess comes from) and drops on the floor about a foot and 1/2 to my left. I just remember screaming to all hell and running downstairs where I told my younger brother and cousin. It happened. For YEARS I got my chops busted for it. But it happened. Hence why i believe in ghosts. Before then I had heard noises, but didnt think much about it. After that, on mult occassion, I had different TV's in my house turn on and off whenever I joked around about ghosts.

But thats not all. At about 16 or 17 years old I was staying at a friends house who lived on my block. He believe my story and claimed his house was haunted. So I decided to call his bluff. We were in his basement playing pool. His uncle (who wasntt home and was the only other person living there) was a HUGE Vikings (football) fan. He had vikings pics up all around the basement. Nothing happens. After a little while of playing we head upstairs. I say something to the effect of "Youre a dick and youre house isnt haunted". As SOOn as I finished the sentence we heard several bangs. I wasnt even fully up the stairs yet. We run back downstairs, and see every (must have been 10) pictures on the floor, and the pool balls which we have que'd up all spread about. We laughed. We set up the pool balls. And I sh@t you not...all night we heard something playing with the pool balls downstairs. Of course, we'd set them up, and within minutes they were all over the place. Since then I was convince. Sorry this was so long. But thats my reasons for believing.

Originally posted by Tartarspoon
reply to post by afoolbyanyothername



If James Randi and his $1mil prize can't produce undisputed
proof the the supernatural , I doubt your challenge will produce any also.




Unfortunately, Mr. Randi's restrictions for proof are set up so that its guaranteed he will never pay out.

Do a little research and you will find there are more than a few people who believe that Randi's challenge is nothing more than a publicity generating scam.

Hear, hear. Well said.

I was beaten to it above with both Victor Zammit's research (and offer to anyone who can disprove the existence of an afterlife), and the WorldITC website. Good research, and scientific method showing a very good case for the existence of spirits. Perhaps not the ultimate in proof, but a good step in that direction. I'd also add the Scole Experiment as another example.

I think my questions to the OP would be:
* What kind of proof are you willing to accept? Would a ghost in a jar be the only thing that will convince you?
* Do you have any preconceived notions as to your belief in the matter (e.g. are you religious)?

When 'proof' is right under the nose of a skeptic the usual response is derision. No proof is ever going to be enough for them.

Hypothetically, there could be a time in the future where any of the subjects debated on this forum are suddenly proven. Aliens? 9/11? Religion? Ghosts?
Will the skeptics/debunkers that always appear on those threads admit defeat? Nope. Won't happen.

I guess what I'm getting at is I am 'skeptical' that the OP will openly admit the existence of spirits were the most unquestionable proof be presented.

Yea that James Randi guy... it does look like they have pretty strict rules, but I suppose if you want to obtain undeniable proof, then you have to have strict rules/guidelines dont you?

Its quite funny though reading through some of the challenge cases, so many different excuses appearing for why people suddenly become unavailable/unable to perform whatever they were going to do!

You can not compare ghosts with God, or black holes.

The paranormal community already claims certain pictures and videos to be genuine. Where as like mentioned we can not aquire pictures of God or really explain what a picture of a suspected black hole is.

So, if some claim certain media to be genuine proof of ghosts...then there should be alot more undeniable pictures and videos. It should be alot more widespread. That can't be done though if its not real because people would see it was fake. Or it WOULD be real...thus its not real. At least not how people are currently percieving it to be like in the movies.

What bugs me about ghosts and spirits is the lack of real measurement that is ever done on these. Here's a start, if ghosts can be picked up in infra red by drops in temperature, how cold does this drop. Does it always drop to a specific figure or the same difference? Does it make any difference if the ghost is inside or outside.
Likewise, for people seeing ghosts, do some surveys about what people say about the ghost, what mood were they in, did anyone else see this?
How old was the ghost? was it Masculine or feminine? What did it die of? What period did it come from? Only by taking this subject seriously and collecting data (rather than reading stories) can patterns be formed and predictions made.

++++++++++++++

To actually do this though. you must assume that ghosts exist and people will tell you the truith (even then interview them with a lie detector).

Hello my name is kitty and I'm new to the fourm.

I post here in hope of generating a collective exploration as to how, what, and why an extraordinary paranormal phenomenon, “the elusive evidence” everyone seems to be looking for manifest itself in my videos.

This unique footage unlike the conventional ambiguous shadow people and ghostly orbs we’ve all seen before depicts interacting animated images and illuminating energies.

So with that said please tell me does this pose any interest? If so where best might I post a video?

Thanks:
Kitty