WANTED: Incontrovertable and scientifically established proof that GHOSTS exist

reply to post by mr-lizard


Mr-Lizard ... I know what you're saying about residual energy and it somehow being stored or trapped by objects.

But there again, doesn't that raise even more questions than answers ?

We're not aware of any method by which useable energy can be stored long term in solid objects such as bricks, buildings, personal effects, etc and then recovered and made use of. I'm sure that by now if such technology was possible and feasible, that we'd be making use of it in our daily lives.

And what type of energy are we talking about here ? heat, light, radiation, radio waves ? If this energy storage does happen, then doesn't that indicate a form of energy that we're not familiar with ? And how (or why) would a ghost have access to it ?

This entire "ghostly entities" business simply ignores everything we've learned about matter and energy and how the universe operates. It's simply not good enough to ignore this by stating that ghosts and such forth are fundamentally beyond our understanding.
Like everything else, ghosts are a part of this universe and therefore bound by the same rules that govern how the universe works ... we certainly don't need to be fed a load of spiritual mumbo jumbo as an explanation !

reply to post by afoolbyanyothername


I would like someone to show me Incontrovertable evidence that the world is round, ...... quite frankly I think its a conspiracy created by the new world order to make us fall off of it. ...... oh, you round worlders. haha

.... seriously though, ... what kind of energy is a ghost composed of ?? What kind of energy is the universe composed of ??? doesn't quantum theory state that the entire universe is simply energy ?? ... blinking in and out of existence. Is not a thought electrical energy?? You simply cannot take Science's view on the universe for the truth, .... as it evolves, all the time. Even then, ... the idea of multiple universes is almost regarded as fact. Where are these universes ??? can you see them ? touch them ? ... If you could truly grasp the infinite state of the universe, all at once, ..... well, you would probably drop dead and become the very thing you try to disprove.

reply to post by afoolbyanyothername



Okay... Okay... allow me to go off-topic for a moment.

When you look in a mirror, what do you see?

A reflection of yourself. That reflection is simply reflected light waves right? The mirror isn't physically storing you as a sentient entity, your reflection isn't self aware, but it moves, blinks, breathes, etc etc... In much the same way that a 'ghost' isn't aware of anything. It simply does not have a consciousness.

When you listen to a radio Dj talking, that is a result of transduction. A transducer is basically converting data to energy.
Simply put... Digital radio is basically encoded binary that is then processed into compressed acoustical energy.

The Dj's voice technically doesn't exist anymore, the second his or her voice leaves the throat and diffuses and reflects around the room, the energy is as good as lost. But the microphone is a transducer, converting acoustical energy into data, which is then transmitted around the world with a tiny bit of delay (via frequencies) and then reversed from data back into acoustic sound waves via your speakers on your radio.

The radio doesn't exactly 'store' the voice as such, but converts it back into a signal that we can understand.

If you took a radio back in time (say five hundred years ago) people would believe that there was a man inside the metal box talking to them.... which is simply untrue.

There are frequencies out there that we cannot hear.... But that does not mean they don't exist.

A cat for example can hear frequencies far higher than a human. But because a human cannot perceive them, does not mean they cannot exist. We need machines and tools to perceive and study this information right?

Go back six hundred years and we'd be getting burned for such radical ideas. How foolish we would be even now to claim we understand everything around us....

Now.... Our brain acts and reacts on a series of electrical waves and frequencies, electrons are infinitely connected to each other right?

Our brain waves operate on different modes of activity. They have cycles, and in those cycles the human brain has different levels of perception (dream states, meditative states, alert states etc).... So we are constantly non-rigid, we operate at different levels of perception in our daily lives right?

In the morning we are groggy because we have just left the sleep cycle, our dreams fade and by afternoon time we are more alert and focused.

Now imagine (using my above points) that millions of radio waves (and other wave forms) bounce through us on a daily basis, higher frequencies are dispersed and diffused on solid matter, while lower frequencies can push through solid objects (this is the same principal as to why we can hear bass sounds from cars as they pass us by or through a neighbours wall).... We also have the natural ability to 'drown out sound' if and when we need to.

Psychology suggests that we can even make things invisible to our perception by unfocusing on things. It doesn't mean they are not there.

Now lets put this into perspective.... Even by todays standards of technological and scientific understanding, we still know little about the universe around us... Then how can you claim that ghosts cannot exist?

If you read my post on the last page, i state that they are echo's or recordings somehow 'trapped' in the ether of our surroundings...

You say objects cannot store energy and that there is no proof...

Again untrue. A falling stone operates on gravitational pull, an elastic band stretched out contains kinetic energy (stored) and battery contains energy (but it's just chemicals right?)

Now let me point you towards this link and a quote:

istina.rin.ru...

"Research has previously proven that exposure to low frequency sound can cause a variety of physiological effects, many of them adverse ones, such as shivering, anxiety and breathlessness. These responses can lead a person to think that some unseen danger is imminent, or feel like he is being watched. Infrasound might even cause hallucinations. Tests at NASA have shown that the human eyeball has a resonant frequency of 18 cycles a second, and will vibrate in sympathy with infrasound waves that have a similar frequency. Under these conditions, there would be a "smearing of vision" that is capable of making someone see evanescent hallucinations in the periphery of their visual field. This effect is reminiscent of the theories of neurologist Michael Persinger, who has suggested that electromagnetic waves can interfere with brain activity and lead people to think they see ghosts or aliens. "

--

Technically things do not exist on a solid state. Mass is simply atoms vibrating at a slower level.... So why can we state that things have to either exist or not exist. Is it not possible for things to unexist for a short (or long) period of time and then suddenly re-exist?

This is transduction. The conversion of one type of energy to another.
A ghost is no more aware of 'itself' as your reflection in a mirror is not aware of itself.

I apply my theory of ghosts in a scientific form and not as you say.... spiritual mumbo jumbo....

Regards. Mr L

Originally posted by Tartarspoon
reply to post by afoolbyanyothername

 

If James Randi and his $1mil prize can't produce undisputed
proof the the supernatural , I doubt your challenge will produce any also.

Unfortunately, Mr. Randi's restrictions for proof are set up so that its guaranteed he will never pay out.

Do a little research and you will find there are more than a few people who believe that Randi's challenge is nothing more than a publicity generating scam.

[edit on 30-6-2009 by RickinVa]

I too, have had a couple of experiences, but they prove nothing to anybody other than myself. I will share my experiences on another rainy day, too, but here I will share an experience of a dear friend of mine, although it is not proof.

One Saturday, my friend and her husband spent the day working outside in their yard. It was hot, and they would come indoors from time to time to get something to drink and cool off. The ice maker had not worked, period, in two or three years. At one point while they were in the house, her husband made the remark that they were either going to have to get a new refrigerator, or have the ice make repaired, because he was tired of not having ice handy, and tired of having to go buy it.

Less than 24 hours later, he was dead. She had, that same evening, taken him to the emergency room. He died the next morning about 10:00 a.m. We had all rushed to the hospital to be with her. We decided to all go back to her home with her. She left the hospital ahead of us, alone.

She walked in the house, alone, and sat down in the kitchen. She looked around her, and saw the same things, the same things they had been using and doing only a short time earlier. His glass still on the countertop.

She picked it up, held it, and started to cry. After she stood there crying for a few moments, she heard "tink...tink....tink...."

She went to the refrigerator, shaking, and the ice maker was kicking out ice cubes. She asked "is that you?" tink. tink. tink.

She said you are here aren't you? tink. tink. tink.

Then she broke down, and told him don't go. Stay with her. Even as a ghost, if that is all she could have, she would take it. Essentially she begged him to stay. Tink. Then it was over. It stopped. When we got there she was literally screaming at the refrigerator to come back.

She told us what happened, and we looked, and there was maybe 10 or 12 ice cubes in the bin.
***************

Now that is the end of that story....but I will follow it up with this.
About two years later I had something very, very, similar happen to me.
A death. Something happened within a few hours after I got home from the hospital. I was....upset. So I called this woman, my friend, crying, saying the same (type thing) was happening to me, that happened when her husband died.

Only....she didn't remember it. She didn't remember anything about it.
I told her her own story, and that we had verified it. (We hung out at her house quite often, and we all knew the ice maker didn't work).

Now, I know this isn't proof. The only way proof is going to happen is if you have your own experience, and I think most people don't. Or....you could have an experience, and then, just forget it. Like my friend did. I really think anything paranormal was so far away from the reality she accepts, that her mind just rejected it. Got rid of it.

I think it's a case that most people won't believe in a haunting until something happens to them.

And agreed with the above post, some people will deny an experience also.

reply to post by mr-lizard


mr-lizard,

A great post!

Whilst I concur with your theory in many ways, I still can't reconcile certain things that I have witnessed and seen on a freind/colleagues videotape. I am referring to this thread by DancedwithVolves:Ghost Rides Rocking Horse

Is this evidence? Absolutely. Is it incontrovertible evidence of a ghost? I don't think I would ever use the word incontivetible for anything after being in a profession where I gathered evidence every day. I don't believe in the term 'absolute proof' either.

Anyway, if these apparitions are a type of "recording" - which I do lean towards, then how does that explain actions that suggest a sentient awareness by the spirit/recording/whatever, of it's environment - as witnessed in the video of Dancedwithwolves thread? IF it is accepted that the video is void of any impropriety - which after getting to know Dancedwithwolves - I believe is the case - then what we are witnessing is evidence of some form of energy interacting with a rocking horse, which it has identified as such.

I would love to hear anyone's comments on this in relation to it's relevance with this post.

Originally posted by mr-lizard

I have a ton of stories but i think i'll save them for a rainy day.

It's raining where I am, so I'd love to hear of your's and anyone else's.

As for mine, I will keep mine for a rainy day

reply to post by mckyle


Thankyou.

Okay as i say I don't know the answer to your question, as to how a ghost can apparantly be sentient and react to objects or people.

But i'll certainly hazard a guess.

As i've mentioned, my belief is that ghosts are a type of 'stored energy', somehow contained and released when and if a receiver is near by.

We (or dogs or any other creature that can sense them) being the receiver).

Okay... What 'if' the energy i speak of can contain some kind of 'emotion' , not necessarily a conscious emotion as in 'ooh i'm angry', but more the state of anger (or sadness or happiness) , as in a the harmonic or vibrational or electrical state that we emit when using such emotions.

Once again, allow me to go off topic.

For example. A brain emits Beta waves when in a state of distress or concentration, beta waves are the most common state of the human mind outside of sleep.

Alpha waves are your calm, relaxed, day to day waves (reading a book or light meditation can trigger Alpha waves).

Theta waves, are your meditative waves or deep thinking waves, usually associated when you come up with answers to problems, after a good think and sometimes REM dreams.

And Delta are common only when in coma's , deep sleeps or hypnotic trances.


These operate on a frequency ranges like so:



These frequencies are of different wavelengths and cycles. The beta states are faster and have more cycles, whilst the delta waves are of slower and longer cycle patterns.

If we study the effects of frequency in sound, we understand that bass frequencies take far longer to disperse than high end frequencies which are prone to reflection and dispersion, whilst bass frequencies are longer and 'heavier' and can travel through stone walls.

With the cycles of brain waves travelling at a relatively slow cycle (with little difference between brain states - but ENOUGH to change our thought cycles and subconcious / conscious states) then maybe the subtle effects of frequency changes have not been fully explored.

We know frequencies are capable of many, many things such as 'sonofusion' -

"Sonofusion, or bubble fusion, has been long hypothesized as a method of producing a fusion reaction on a microscopic scale. In a nutshell, scientists have expected to trigger sonofusion by directing high frequency sound waves at various types of liquids. When bubbles are introduced into the liquid, the high frequency of the sound waves causes the bubbles to collapse. In certain conditions, some scientists theorize that the bubbles collapse with such force that they actually trigger microscopic thermonuclear reactions. "

www.dailytech.com...


Now let's talk about poltergeists.

Some believe that a lot of poltergeist activity seems to link to pubescent children, and in particular girls. Documented cases such as these below, show us that trends can occur.

www.victorzammit.com...

paranormal.about.com...

One theory given by two physicists, Pierro Brovetto & Vera Maxia:

"We’re right to be terrified, say physicists. Children generate poltergeist activity by channelling energy into the quantum mechanical vacuum.”

“Puberty is a modification of the child body which involves various organs, chiefly the brain,” they state.”

So, basically they are saying that the electron activity that goes on in the brain at puberty can create “disturbances” outside the brain.

--

So okay... DO Brains have the potential of affecting the outside world?

Dr. Miguel Nicolelis of Duke University is known for his "neuroengineering" work in the the mind to operate artificial limbs.

"Scientists have already shown that monkeys with probes inserted in their brains are able to control artificial devices like robotic arms with their minds. They've found that computer software can interpret signals picked up by the electrodes."

edition.cnn.com...

--

Okay then... that's fine. A living creature CAN move objects with the power of the brain. In the above case consciously, and in the poltergeist cases apparantly unconsciously.

Now what if this unconscious, unliving energy i speak of, still contains the 'information' ... the 'mood' or the power to change the physical world around them?

--

So if my idea's are on the right track, i believe trapped vibrations are the key to unclocking this mystery, possibly generated by a human mind and bounced around for an undetermined amount of time and then received again by a receiver, such as yourself.... DEPENDING on your brain cycle?


The only thing that flaws this approach is how this may occur as even very low frequency vibrations will eventually cease vibrating....

But then energy never dies does it?

It converts into another type of energy.

So... Maybe just maybe energy can become stored after converting, awaiting a receiver?

I think the idea that i'm hinting at is.... Energy can be passed and stored at different vibrational states, this information can also be received and interpreted in many forms....

I really don't know.... But i'd love to hear your feedback.










www.popsucker.net...

reply to post by mr-lizard


I guess my short answer is: I just don't know either

What I am confident of is that we are dealing with a genuine phenomena that possibly entails more than one type of phenomena - eg, poltergueists which demonstrate 'physical' interaction, as opposed other phenomena - such as an apparition - for want of a better term that is visible but lack any obvious sentient behaviour.

Yet another is the example of the 'entity' in the rockinghorse video which appears to display - and I stress appears - both sentient qualities and physically-interactive ones.

I need to explain to those that haven't seen the video in the Rocking Horse thread I have previously linked to, the entity appeared to display awareness of the adults in the house: the entity would 'play' while the child was present, but would stop rocking the horse as the adults approached the room.

So in my opinion, it is possible that we are dealing with at least three separate phenomena (and possibly more):

*the recordings of the non-sentient, non-physically-interacting type eg: the Tantallon Castle Ghost
*the physically active type as in the poltergeist phenomena
*the sentient, physically-interacting types, to wit: the rocking horse ghost

Without any quantifiable results, and no recognised method and device to 'scientifically' measure and record data, all we can do is speculate.

But whenever I say that, people invariably accuse me of being skeptical. They are however, only half right. I am skeptical, but I do believe that what I have seen, and what others have also, does represent a genuine phenomena. As to what exactly that phenomena is, I for the time being, have no idea.

Cheers Mr-Lizard and thanks for your reply

Edit: just to qualify something. I would say that the Tantallon Castle example is a possible example of an energy recording as described by Mr-Lizard. Such phenomena appear to display nominal awareness or interaction with their surroundings, indicating an absence of sentient 'awareness'.

However, I don't feel that other phenomena such as the rocking horse ghost could logically fit the 'recording' noma. This type of entity appears to display some level of cognitive function - eg: hiding/ceasing it's interaction with the rocking horse when adults approach the room.

[edit on 3-7-2009 by mckyle]

[edit on 3-7-2009 by mckyle]

an ionic breeze has negtive ion charged plates that collect postive ions that attach themselves to dust particles so it should act as a ghost trap this is my personal theroy which i posted elsewere where it was ignored sorry if in any violations .i came up with it from watching ghosts shows since the 70s i dont believe in ghost yet but they might fit in the electric universe model your brain and nervous system is full of energy which has to go somewhere when you die.

[edit on 3-7-2009 by silverdemon71]

Finally.. Thank you Mr. Lizard someone that sees ghosts as I do. As really nothing more then human brains interpretation of residual energy. Sure it can seem real, a person emotions etc might be stored and then you sense them but instead of feeling the emotion itself as it is alien to you, you project it outward and see it as eminating from some "ghost".

It was when I came to the realization that the brain is an electro-chemical engine that I realized that ghosts as we currently think of them just can not exist. Even if the energy state of a being can somehow be stored, the chemical cascade that makes up their memories, thoughts, and actions are no longer there, the body is gone, there are no chemicals. It takes another brain for that energy state to excite.

Thus your departed grandma is NOT watching out for you. The confederate soldier you see in your living room is not trying to tell you something. You can't ask the ghostly girl skipping rope what death is like, she doesn't know.

I would like to postulate that other reasons might explain ghosts that DO things. The human brain likes to make sense of things. If some other supernatural; for lack of a better word, accurrance took place it is conceivable that ones brain might imagine a ghostly image to explain it (As a ghost might be far fetched but at least it is AN explaination instead of none). Or even more strange the mind picked up on a memory of person that was there and linked the two events in your head.

Yes occham's razor says that the simplest answer is most likely true, but then if there really were a simple answer that satisfied such questions we still wouldn't be asking them.

Here is what happened to me last year and I caught it on tape..

www.metacafe.com...

I came to believe sometime later based on events that occurred after this manifestation which I caught on tape.. that it was demonic. At the time I thought it was a special message to me since I was heavy into astrology, esoteric and new age studies.
Many things happened months after these events that left me no doubt it was demonic. I can tell you as GOD as my witness it responded to the name JESUS CHRIST..
I leave this as a testimony, I care not to debate or convince anybody what is on this tape is 100% true..Believe what you want..I know what happened and I know it's 100% true..Take it as you will.
All I can tell you is we are in the last days!


[edit on 3-7-2009 by Wideawake08]

reply to post by Wideawake08


Would you mind sharing your thoughts about why you think it is demonic?

I was intrigued by it, and surprised at how calm you remained.

See, I'm thinking I would have thought they were angels, orb-ghosts, or something friendly. They weren't trying to harm you were they? Of course, just showing themselves like that would be frightening.

How did you decide on the demonic? We didn't get to see part where they responded to the name of Jesus. Would you mind telling us what happened?

Thank you for posting this, I looove this type thing.
*****************

Oh, and the rocking horse thread. Read it. Loved it. Thanks.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
I too, have had a couple of experiences, but they prove nothing to anybody other than myself.

exactly my thoughts and that is why i usually never bother talking about it, its usually such a waste of oxygen when 90% of people dont believe you before you even start and the smug smirk's on there faces during the story angers the hell out of me!

the house i grew up in was crazy i used to sit there some nights thinking ''this cannot be real'' but when you see the same expression's on the other four people sat there it clearly was,we had it all full aparition's, things moving,doors opening,voices i tell you when we were little my mam used to tell us it was nothing or she did'nt hear anything but as we got older we knew she was just trying not to scare us and confesses she was terrified now we are grown up,my best friend used to laugh at the idea of ghosts till he slept over he does not even question it now and it was near 8 years ago now.

i find it baffling especially on this site that people are so quick to dismiss the idea of ghosts i mean its not that out there.

I fully understand what many of the above posters have been saying about their "personal" experiences and don't doubt for one moment that to them, they were indeed very real occurences.

What I was originally getting at by starting this thread was to point out that everything has a reason and cause behind it's existance and that the scientific method has been incredibly successfull these last 200 years or so in examing and explaining the world around us.
We have scientific theories trying to explain some of the most incredible features of this universe we inhabit extending from the subatomic to the astronomically huge and everything in between. Even areas as mind boggling as quantum physics, string theory and black holes have opened themselves up to human scrutiny and analysis. And virtualy our entire global society is based on our understanding of nature and the forces at work which we've scientifically analysed and bent to our wills.

And yet, even with all that understanding and knowledge of our universe, we still have ZERO scientific proof and NO working theory to even begin to give an opinion as to whether there is such a phenomena as ghosts or whether it's just some collective wish fullfillment on the part of many people.
If ghosts exist, then one would have to make the assumption that they would be also be governed by the same forces and laws that make the universe work. If not, then that would imply that science has completely missed and is entirely unaware of a completely new area of physics ... and yet I find that hard to believe that science could have made such a gross error.
Coupled with the fact that ghosts have been reported for millenia makes it all the more difficult to understand why solid, undeniable and reproducible proof of their existance hasn't been produced a long time ago.
In my mind, the simplest explanation for this lack of proof is that ghosts are basically a figment of the human imagination possibly coupled with unusual (but NOT spiritual or occult) external influences. If they did have a separate and external existance and reality, then WHERE is the proof ?

As i had said in another thread somewhere around here:

"I never understood why people needed scientific evidence for something that has nothing to do with science. Its like trying to build a rocket by praying, its two completely different things."

Just my thought.

Originally posted by ucanneverdie
As i had said in another thread somewhere around here:

"I never understood why people needed scientific evidence for something that has nothing to do with science. Its like trying to build a rocket by praying, its two completely different things."

Just my thought.

How can you state it has NOTHING to do with science ?
Everything that is composed of matter and/or energy can be deduced and explained using the scientific method. I'm assuming naturally that "ghosts" if they exist, manifest themselves within our physical reality framework and are governed by the same laws of physics ... otherwise, if they have their own unique "laws of physics", then science is in HUGE trouble as we believe with a high degree of confidence that the major forces and "laws" governing our universe are well known.

So if you can "see" a ghost, that implies photons travelled from the ghost to your eyes ... which implies the photons originated either from reflection from the ghosts "body" or were emitted directly by the material the ghost was composed of. In either case, that implies a physical structure of some kind that interacted with or generated those photons that enabled the ghost to be "seen". Further, such a structure implies certain physical laws which directly ties it to science.

So as far as I can see, if "ghosts" do exist, then they should be easily detected and amenable to scientific scrutiny ... but that doesn't seem to be the case, does it ?

reply to post by afoolbyanyothername


Ok I have read your reply and you do have a point.
Now may I ask you a few questions? Because sometimes the awnser lies in the reason of the question.

Why do you want proof? Have you seen something and want to know if what you saw is real or if there is proof and you believe the facts it will just fill a question in your mind?

reply to post by afoolbyanyothername


Ok. Prove the existence of dark matter to me then I will prove the existence of ghosts to you..
I do say this to make a point.

[edit on 4-7-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]