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Originally posted by Matrix Rising
I showed the paper to let you know that Extraterrestrials, a theory within ufology, has been peer reviewed. You made the claim that it hasn't been peer reviewed. Sorry, wrong again.
Originally posted by Matrix Rising
Therefore Ufology, the study of unidentified flying objects, is a legitimate field of study.
Originally posted by Matrix Rising
You don't want to answer because you know if you say yes they exist, then you have no argument and if you say no they don't exist then you look like a closed minded skeptic.
So you try to avoid the question and it's obvious why.
Originally posted by Matrix Rising
You seem to be stuck on the definition of science you quoted earlier. I have noticed that you only quote part of the definition that you think agrees with you, typical.
I showed the paper to let you know that Extraterrestrials, a theory within ufology, has been peer reviewed. You made the claim that it hasn't been peer reviewed. Sorry, wrong again.
First, I did not say they were not peer-reviewed. I said, Ufology, as a field, has no formal peer-review process. Proper scientific fields do; Ufology does not.
And yes, while extraterrestrials are a theory within Ufology, the papers you cited, though about extraterrestrials are not related to Ufology because those papers contribute nothing to our understanding of the UFO mystery. You are making what is known as a Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.
Originally posted by Matrix Rising
Therefore Ufology, the study of unidentified flying objects, is a legitimate field of study.
Again, an acknowledgement of a reality does not make for a science. While the UFO mystery may be a subject for study, Ufology is not a field of science.
Originally posted by Matrix Rising
You don't want to answer because you know if you say yes they exist, then you have no argument and if you say no they don't exist then you look like a closed minded skeptic.
So you try to avoid the question and it's obvious why.
Red herring arguments by way of appeal to motive and ad hominems.
Originally posted by cripmeister
OP, it's obvious that you have no real grasp of what science is. That's ok, a lot of people don't but don't make claims you can't back up. People who do this tend to come off as ignorant.
[edit on 14-6-2009 by cripmeister]
en.wikipedia.org...
Ufology has never been fully embraced by academia as a scientific field of study even though it was, in the early days, the subject of large scale scientific studies that produced reports described to follow. Prior to August, 2008, one could not obtain a "ufology" degree from any college or university, though there have been a few college or university courses on the subject, often from a folklore perspective.
en.wikipedia.org...
Ufologists vary from fringe proponent David Icke to respected mainstream scientists like Peter A. Sturrock, J. Allen Hynek, Jacques Vallee, James E. McDonald, or Auguste Meessen, some of whom argue that UFO reports are as worthy of study as any topic, and deserve case-by-case analysis using the scientific method.
Not all ufologists believe that UFOs are necessarily extraterrestrial spacecraft, or even that they are objective physical phenomena.
Originally posted by Matrix Rising
You have to be joking. Yes , the papers I quoted support and examine theories within Ufology namely the ET Hypothesis. The papers speak to intelligent species in the galaxy as well as other life forms that might explain some U.F.O.'s. Did you even read the papers? At least the Abstracts?
Originally posted by Matrix RisingThis shows you are being intellectually dishonest.
Originally posted by Majorion
But my personal contention is that the "study-of-ufos" differs entirely from "ufology".
You have to be joking. Yes , the papers I quoted support and examine theories within Ufology namely the ET Hypothesis. The papers speak to intelligent species in the galaxy as well as other life forms that might explain some U.F.O.'s. Did you even read the papers? At least the Abstracts?
You are making a common fallacy among UFO fans. That is, life elsewhere equates to life coming here. Those papers, while about a common theme shared with Ufology, they are not "examining" as you claim, theories that UFOs are piloted by alien intelligences. They are about life elsewhere in the galaxy. They contribute nothing to our understanding of the mystery. Even if we discover life on another planet it does not mean other intelligent beings are coming here.
Originally posted by 1SawSomeThings
You make some articulate points Matrix, and I have read the thread up till now agreeing with most of them.
The usuals will come along and argue that since Ufology was officially quashed from 1949 on with the "swamp gas and ball lightning" studies of Project Grudge, the Robertson Panel and Project Blue Book et al, that it is not therefore it cannot be a "formal" science.
But consider the "formal" science of quantum physics, one that has been built upon heavily in our world with great success. Many of the principles involved are so foreign to most laymen (and many scientists) that they would toss the ideas into the same bucket as "Ufology" if asked to truly try to understand them. As an example see Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, and the subsequent Schroedinger's Cat thought experiment. Also see "Alice In Quantumland" by Gilmore 1995, a look at elementary particle behavior through a parody of "Alice in Wonderland". The quantum world is so strange that you have to take on by "previously normal standards" totally irrational ideas. But the experimental data bear out the theories and principles, so you have to believe (or accept) the weird theories embodied therein. The whole field was developed on many indirect observations, i.e. there were no direct samples, measurements or photographs obtained. But it is accepted and taught in universities all over the world. I truly believe it is far more bizarre than the concepts in "mainstream" Ufology.
SO we have those who say we (the public anyway) don't have a UFO captured in a freezer, so we don't have a science. But we have many hundreds of observations from highly credible witnesses, and many thousands more from "just plain folks", like my Grandma or maybe yours. IMO Ufology is like Galileo approaching the Catholic Church with (his theory at the time) that the Earth orbits the Sun. Highly problematic for the powers that be, that they might not be infallible with their beliefs and power, or their desire to control ours.
Giving Ufology a logical treatment similar to that of quantum physics, take into the account that if there were advanced civilizations visiting, they may not wish to be, or cannot be observed in our sense of the word. Or that they may be to us as we are shadows to the ants through the glass of an ant farm. Another way of thinking (simplistically), is that a successful experimental observation of the phenomenon would affect its ephemeral nature, as in Schroedinger's Cat.
Being solution-oriented, some are thinking outside of the box, and trying to devise a system for detection of UFOs. It might be a start for the detection and measurement phase of Ufology by the public. See Peter Davenport's proposal for detection at NUFORC.org. (491 kb PDF)
[edit on 14-6-2009 by 1SawSomeThings]
Originally posted by Matrix Rising
I ask the question for the umpteenth time because your avoidance of the question speaks volumes.
Originally posted by Matrix Rising
You said,"It doesn't mean intelligent beings are coming here." This shows you can't seperate the two. Ufology doesn't mean intelligent beings are coming here. Ufology means the study of U.F.O.'s (Unidentified Flying Objects.
the papers I quoted support and examine theories within Ufology namely the ET Hypothesis. The papers speak to intelligent species in the galaxy as well as other life forms that might explain some U.F.O.'s. Did you even read the papers? At least the Abstracts?
Originally posted by Matrix Rising
Ufology doesn't mean intelligent beings are coming here. Ufology means the study of U.F.O.'s (Unidentified Flying Objects.
Originally posted by DoomsdayRex
I would ask Drs. Drake and Shostak or Freeman Dyson if what they are doing is Ufology.
What do you think their answer will be?
Originally posted by Matrix Rising
There's more empirical evidence for theories within Ufology
Originally posted by Majorion
Exactly, keyword there; within Ufology. Not "Ufology" itself. And this is the point that DoomsdayRex has been endlessly stressing to no avail in his debate with you.
Originally posted by Majorion
The "Study of UFOs" does not equate by-definition to--"Contemporary Ufology"--as you are arguing. And in your argument, a report like Bluebook is one and the same like with a book about Abductions by Budd Hopkins, for example.
Originally posted by Majorion
The "Study of UFOs"--independently--could be considered something else, but only if separate from the other theories, hypothesis, and related subject matters.
Originally posted by Majorion
Originally posted by Matrix Rising
There's more empirical evidence for theories within Ufology
Exactly, keyword there; within Ufology. Not "Ufology" itself. And this is the point that DoomsdayRex has been endlessly stressing to no avail in his debate with you.
The "Study of UFOs" does not equate by-definition to--"Contemporary Ufology"--as you are arguing. And in your argument, a report like Bluebook is one and the same like with a book about Abductions by Budd Hopkins, for example. Although the two subjects matters are related and form--more or less--the overall "Contemporary Ufology", in this particular fashion negates academia and science.
The "Study of UFOs"--independently--could be considered something else, but only if separate from the other theories, hypothesis, and related subject matters.
Best regards,
Originally posted by DoomsdayRex
Originally posted by Majorion
Exactly, keyword there; within Ufology. Not "Ufology" itself. And this is the point that DoomsdayRex has been endlessly stressing to no avail in his debate with you.
Thank you, Majorion. Maybe hearing the point from someone he is not angry with will help his understanding.
Originally posted by Majorion
The "Study of UFOs" does not equate by-definition to--"Contemporary Ufology"--as you are arguing. And in your argument, a report like Bluebook is one and the same like with a book about Abductions by Budd Hopkins, for example.
On that point, I would like to know what Matrix Rising considers worthy of study and consideration withing Ufology and what he considers worthy of dismissal? For instance, would he want a Kevin Randle taught along side of a David Ickes, or Hynek along side of Stephen Greer or a Blossom Goodchild. Would they want the opinions and views of skeptics taught?
Originally posted by Majorion
The "Study of UFOs"--independently--could be considered something else, but only if separate from the other theories, hypothesis, and related subject matters.
In order for this to become a science, they would have to be willing to accept the consensus of the scientific community. Right now, Ufology has trouble coming to a consensus on anything; we argue over cases, there are still people who cling to known hoaxes and misindentifications.