The 47 Million People Don't Have Healthcare Lie, page 1

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Courtesy of Doug Ross and Mister R.

One of the most disingenuous uses of statistics has come with the use of the figure "47 million" when referring to the number of people without health insurance.

Let's break down the 47 million:

During her campaign for President, Hillary Clinton admitted in questioning that, of the 47 million, at least 25 percent could afford health insurance but choose not to purchase it (those with a household income of more than $75,000 a year). I believe the number to be slightly higher, closer to 30 percent, but let's use Clinton's number. That's 12 million.

Let's count illegal aliens. Believe it or not, illlegals are counted in this number, however, statistical models vary and have ranged from 5 to 12 million. Let's take the middle. 8 million.

Then there are those who are already eligible for government programs but not participating. That number is estimated at 12 to 16 million. Let's take 12 million.

Another group of people are those who self-fund. These are people with the financial resources to handle high medical claims. That number is estimated at 1 to 2 million. We'll take one for arguments sake.

Then there are those who are between jobs. When people are fired or leave a job, they can opt for COBRA (an extension of their health benefits under the Consolidated Omnibus Reconciliation Act, I believe 1996). When electing COBRA coverage, the premium is covered by the member. When someone is between jobs, or have obtained a job and have to wait 90 days for coverage, the government counts you as not having health insurance. That number is estimated at 5 million.

These are not exact figures, and may vary, but they are pretty widely accepted.

Add the numbers up and you get 38 million. That leaves 9 million without coverage (although they really do have coverage since the federal government, along with the states, administer medicaid and charity care).

So the real number of uninsured is 8-10 million. There are 300 million Americans.

Lovely isnt it? Politicians just cant help but lie too us to get into office and screw things up.

So we want to break the system because 1 out of 30 people cannot afford coverage. That's absurd.

One last point: When politicians control your health care, they will politicize it, and use it to get elected. More on that later.

However, Obama has shown all Americans that he has already politicized the process. When he called all the health care providers and carriers together to promise savings in the system, he exempted lawyers. They were never called to the table. Tort reform is directly tied to the reduction of costs in the system (consider, for example, how Texas instituted Tort Reform).

Obama railed against "special interests" in his campaign, but has shown he will protect entire special interest classes. Like the UAW and ACORN. In this case, trial lawyers also happen to be among the largest donors to Democrats.

In conclusion: Only 8-10 million people in our country do not have healthcare and can not afford it. That includes illegals
1 out of 30.

All these people do all day is shovel lies in our faces. We are not stupid!
47 Million Americans Without Health Insurance, Census Report
Sorry I dont trust any government reports anymore. nononono

reply to post by amazed

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If you want medical care go to the hospital. You use the ER, then the people with health insurance pick up the tab.

That is what the illegals do. There is a law in this country that states a hospital cannot turn down health care.

Government run health care doesn't work. It's that simple. You are advocating replacing a broken system with a broken system.

I have a really good idea, instead of going and giving a government control of my health how bout we root out the problems in the system.

What sickens me is people that just say "give me" and don't want to work for anything.

reply to post by amazed

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Do you know how easy and available health care is to get? I think the cheapest you can get for yourself if like 52$ a month single and 200$ a month for a whole family.

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
reply to post by amazed

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If you want medical care go to the hospital. You use the ER, then the people with health insurance pick up the tab.

That is what the illegals do. There is a law in this country that states a hospital cannot turn down health care.

No, the ER charges you for the bill, then sends it to collections if it's not paid in full.

The only reason illegals get away with it is because it's hard to send the bill to someone that uses a fake id, or is impossible to find.

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
reply to post by amazed

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If you want medical care go to the hospital. You use the ER, then the people with health insurance pick up the tab.

That is what the illegals do. There is a law in this country that states a hospital cannot turn down health care.

Government run health care doesn't work. It's that simple. You are advocating replacing a broken system with a broken system.

I have a really good idea, instead of going and giving a government control of my health how bout we root out the problems in the system.

What sickens me is people that just say "give me" and don't want to work for anything.

Uhhh no, not quite true.

If you go to the hospital you are correct, they DO have to "stabilize" you but nothing else. They cannot turn you away, but all they have to do is assure that you are stabilized. IE they cannot allow you to die on there doorstep, but they are not required to do anything else. Once you have been stabilized they have done what they are required to do. You then receive a huge inflated bill from them a few weeks later, if you are still alive, if you are not, your family is forced to pay for it as wife/husband/parent. Been there, done that.

Don't believe the lies that you can get free health care if you just go to the ER at the hospital, because you WILL receive an inflated bill from them, a bill that reflects higher charges than for those who do have health insurance, as their is not a system in place that caps what they are allowed to charge people who do not have insurance.

If you do not have health insurance, you get hammered with inflated prices to RECOUP what the health care system feels they are "loosing" because of those with insurance, as when you have insurance, for example a hospital cannot charge $20 for a single aspirin, they are capped on what they are allowed to charge for that aspirin by the insurance companies, but if you do not have health insurance, they can, and do, charge a person whatever they want. Yes, $20 for a SINGLE aspirin. In America. For people who do NOT have health insurance. If you do, that single aspirin is capped at a much lower cost. For those with insurance, a hospital bill might be pre insurance $5000, without insurance, that bill will be closer to $8000, possibly more.

My dad did not have insurance, and went to the hospital having a heart attack, they stabilized him, and then 3 days later sent him home. We received a bill of about $20000.. With a charge for a single aspirin, multiple doses at $20 per aspirin. A few weeks later he went back having another heart attack. We tried to talk the hospital into allowing us to give my dad the aspirin that he had, they would not allow this. They sent my dad home again. He ended up going back, a few days later, and died. To which we received a bill from the hospital totaling almost $80,000. So basically, all the charges for his going to the ER without insurance, in the end totaled over $100,000 dollars, for them allowing him to die, as ALL they were required to do, was stabilize him if possible. AND they DID NOT DO IT FOR FREE.

Why do you think this country has an astronomical number of people going bankrupt for health care reasons? Because you can get free health care by going to the ER? Pull your head out of the sand.

In your ignorance, I assume you have insurance and have never had to go to the hospital and find out what really happens.

Research, I get so tired of people making assumptions and spouting lies when they have no idea of what is truly taking place within our health care system.

And again you are wrong that government insurance does not work, do your research, you will find many many other countries that have single pay insurance that works very well. Are you telling me, that America, is too stupid to look at all the different types of single pay insurance in the world, and pick and choose what works and what does not work, then create a system that benefits everyone?

Again, what type of person do you want to be? A child hater/killer? As every time anyone denies a single pay insurance system, they are denying a child the basic rights to health care. In the long run that creates unhealthy people, who have lower IQ's, lower drive in life, and more criminal activity. So you are propagating more and more low income families who cannot afford health insurance.

Denying children health care, is sick, and those who deny a single payer system, are sick. Greed goes hand in hand with evil. I pay my taxes, my family works hard for what we have, because of the greed of others, health insurance if far too expensive for my family to afford. My children suffer because of the greed of others. MANY children suffer because of the greed of others. I view this as a symptom of what is wrong with our society, we are social creatures, let's truly act like it, instead of continuing on this path of greed and evil which permeates this world.

As humans, lets be HUMANE. Oh, wait that just might be asking to much of those who are greedy me me me screw you attitudes.

Denying the right to health care to ANYONE, in my opinion, is being a murderer.

When we start caring for each other, and ONLY then will humans actually move towards a better plane of existence.

HARM NONE
Peace

reply to post by SpacePunk

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Yep and the worse that happens is that your credit is ruined which if you are poor your credit is probably already ruined.

The fact is that you still get treated if you need to be treated.

reply to post by amazed

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I don't know a single person who doesn't have health care. I'm not rich. My friends aren't (all) rich. But they make sacrifices in order to provide health care to their famillies. Yes, for some of them it is expensive. My in-laws pay a boat load because they have a LOT of health issues.

Originally posted by Tentickles
reply to post by amazed

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Do you know how easy and available health care is to get? I think the cheapest you can get for yourself if like 52$ a month single and 200$ a month for a whole family.

Again, not quite true. Sure, you might be able to find an insurance that only cost $52 a month, but then you have a VERY high deductible, and a much higher charge on medications as well as caps on what they are willing to pay for. Research research research.

Just because you might find something for $52 a month, does not mean it will pay for the things you might need health care for. Many times, insurance this cheap, will not pay for say, cancer treatment, or treatment for heart attacks, or baby wellness checkups, or physical therapy or prescriptions. For something along the prices you are describing, you basically get insurance for MINOR injuries.

For a family of 4, we were paying $1500 a month for health insurance, on top of a $500 deductible per person. Meaning we had to pay the $500 per person out of our pockets, BEFORE the insurance kicked in. The prescription was good on this one though, and being that my daughter has asthma, and was going through a bad time with it, we paid it. It helped, but the fine line was always, are we really getting anything out of paying for this insurance? Or are we really not getting much out of it? Always a fine line, which we were always watching.

I am always looking for health insurance that my family can afford that actually does any good. Meaning that for the amount of money we pay them, it is actually worth it.

HARM NONE
Peace

reply to post by amazed

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First let me start of by saying that I'm sorry for the loss of your father.

Second, it is not my ignorance. You are the one that is ignorant. The reason why health care is so expensive is because the very government that you want to trust your life too has allowed the insurance companies and ambulance chasers to run wild.

Under a single payer system, some bureaucrat in Washington would have decided the fate of your father. Under a single payer system some bureaucrat in Washington would decide the fate of you.

If you have cancer and you don't meet the quota they have, they will tell you tough luck get your affairs in order because it is not cost effective to save your life.

I'm not the one that is sick, I understand that you want to save the world and live in some Utopia fantasy, but that isn't the case. Also, I didn't say nothing about going to the ER being "free". I simply said they will get treated. Which your father did, and they kept him for 3 days. Under a single payer system what you went through with your rather will be the norm. Except the second time he went back to the hospital they would have pulled his medical records and saw he had a heart attack a few days before hand and the bureaucrat in Washington would tell the doctor to not do anything, because it isn't cost effective.

And second of all a single payer system is not "free". We will pay dearly for it out of our taxes.

Your bleeding heart and emotions are getting in the way of logical conclusions. The main one being that you want to give the government control over your health. A single payer system is unsustainable, as has been proven in every state, that has a public option, and in every country that has a single payer system.

You want to cure a headache with a shotgun. If you want to call me a murderer and all kind of other nasty things because you let your emotions make your decisions then so fine be it.

We need health care reform, but a single payer system is not the answer. You are calling me ignorant when I have looked at both sides of the issue and have found the problems that make health care so expensive.

Sorry to say, but you are wrong.

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
reply to post by SpacePunk

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Yep and the worse that happens is that your credit is ruined which if you are poor your credit is probably already ruined.

The fact is that you still get treated if you need to be treated.

Uh NO NO NO, you do not think. MANY families are having their credit ruined BECAUSE of the high cost of health care. Research, please research.

Many times families will be doing well, working towards bettering themselves, something medically bad happens, and they are then ruined financially because of the cost of health care.

And no, hospitals are only required to stabilize a person, NOT fully treat them.

Come on people, pull your head out of your you know whats, and THINK and DENY IGNORANCE.

Harm None
Peace

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife

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They did pull my dads medical records, they knew exactly what was taking place. Do not tell me that I am not aware of what is taking place. I spent two years researching this after my dad passed away.

They DO charge far more if you do not have insurance, and hospitals are only required to stabilize a person, and nothing else. I asked, and was told by the hospital that they charge more for non insurance patients to recoup what they feel is the "losses" they incur through those who do have insurance, because of the cap on what they are allowed to charge.

And no, a single payer system, does not have to be as you described. It can and does work and it can and does work well in several countries.

Under a good single payer system, your health care is between you and your dr., not some bureaucrat in Washington. It has to be done right to be worth it. And it can be done right.

Under our current system, if you do have cancer and do not have insurance, you are screwed. Even if you do have insurance, I know of cases where the insurance dropped coverage, refusing to pay for the care of the patient, again screwing you.

Greed permeates this world, and many do not even see how they are a part of it.

Harm None
Peace

reply to post by amazed

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Uh NO NO NO, you do not think. MANY families are having their credit ruined BECAUSE of the high cost of health care. Research, please research.

Many times families will be doing well, working towards bettering themselves, something medically bad happens, and they are then ruined financially because of the cost of health care.

And no, hospitals are only required to stabilize a person, NOT fully treat them.

Come on people, pull your head out of your you know whats, and THINK and DENY IGNORANCE.

In the past 6 years the number of bankruptcies due to medical bills has jumped 50% when before it was only 10%. You know what that tells me? The problem isn't health care the problem is the government, the very body that makes the laws.

You need to take your own advice and Think and Deny Ignorance. You want to give the people that have screwed the system up to begin with complete control of the system.

This is the deal, under our current system, which I agree needs to be reformed, if you have cancer or some other disease you will be treated and can get cured. Under single payer 9 times out of 10 those people will not get treated. Because it is not cost effective.

People will suffer under a single payer system, the single payer system is an 80/20 benefit factor, where if you have minor problems it will benefit you if you have major problems you will be out of luck.

How about we actually do something to fix the current system we have, which is vote out all the corrupt politicians and actually elected people that represent us that will make the necessary reforms.

The problem with the health care industry is not the health care, it is the insurance companies allowed to run wild and ambulance chasing lawyers. That causes doctors having to pay high insurance premiums to protect them against malpractice suits.

Hi. I'm new here. I don't want to get into an argument, because I'm not American and I don't live there. I'm Canadian. As Americans, you must choose the type of system you want. However, you should put things into context. In Canada:

"Canada's healthcare spending is expected to reach $171.9 billion, or $5,170 per person, in 2008. Health expenditures are expected to be 10.7% of the gross domestic product. Hospitals account for the largest segment in spending at $48.1 billion, however, this amount is declining. According to the OECD, spending was second amongst other countries, behind the United States and ahead of Norway, Switzerland and Luxembourg[3]."

en.wikipedia.org...

(I know its wiki, but the facts are correct.)

Yes, Canadian government handles health care, but our life expectancy is longer than that of the US (80.4 vs. 77.8). Furthermore, the number of people who go bankrupt because of health issues, while sill unacceptable (I consider 1 to be too many), it is lower than that of the US.

Yes, you do not get to choose an HMO, but you will, on average, live longer. So you need to decide if you want the freedom to choose or to live longer.

reply to post by Turd Fergusson

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The argument I have against life expectancy rates when people try to compare America to any other country is that Canada has only 33 million people. America has 309 million people.

The sample size is way larger and therefore more prone to other variables and will not give an accurate assessment to compare the two countries, or even compare European countries to America.

So naturally on most things we are going to have higher rates of somethings and lower rates of other things.

You even said yourself people still go bankrupt in Canada due to health care. That is my argument against single payer system. America is supposed to be a leader in the world, and instead of using our ingenuity and coming up with something completely different and new, they just want to try to reform the system to something that in my opinion isn't really that much better.

As I've said before we need health care reform, but I have real problems when people try to tell me that I should trust the politicians with my health when it is no secret that they are special interest shills.

edit to add -

Welcome to ATS!

[edit on 12-6-2009 by Hastobemoretolife]

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