Chinese want US bonds issued in yuan rather than dollars

Originally posted by silent thunder
Asking countries to repay their debt in currencies other than their own is a manoeuvre more usually applied to third-world nations than the US.

market-ticker.org...
See, if your currency declines when you have issued debt in a foreign currency then the principal value of that loan has just gone up. This in turn causes your credit rating to decline (your debt-to-income goes up) which in turn forces your currency lower, which makes the principal value go up again, which.....
Got it? Good. This is called a "death spiral" and is how you destroy a nation's ecoinomy, right before you come in and destroy its government...

Is anyone else connecting the dots here? Or am I imagining it? 3rd world coutries have debts issued to them in foreign currencies, often have crippling inflation, go into the same "death-spiral" described, and have some of the worst governments in the world. Naturally not everything can be blamed on foreign-currency debts, but some sure can.

[edit on 10/6/2009 by Rivyolie]

[edit on 10/6/2009 by Rivyolie]

Capitalism cannot flourish in a country that is communist. I’m sure china is having more good days than bad for now.( hence, it’s a communist county ) a good example is Russia. It just does not work. I’m sure sales are down in china, so what do you do. Turn on the propaganda machine. Let’s see here... Changing the bond market, let’s get the world to accept the Yuan, let’s bring the standard of living up in china for our country; All this is capitalistic. It also sound like china is in somewhat of a panic mode. I’m sure china will not empower it’s people with wealth. With wealth comes power and if you give the people of china power, they will want elections next. Down comes the communist china and up rises capitalist china. China has not changed in what seems like forever. I don’t think China has any intentions of doing that now. I believe china is saying all this stuff, because they are about to be in as much trouble as we are.

Oh ,And one more item here, email or call you representatives in Washington and let them know we need our manufacturing jobs back. Also throw in there that America cannot survive on call center jobs. This mess the country is in will only turn around when manufacturing job are returned to the United States.

Originally posted by SJE98
... let them know we need our manufacturing jobs back.

What would you like to manufacture?

Old technology or new technology?

Has been or will be?

Is America ready to innovate and create or will it revert back to regulate and legislate?

Also throw in there that America cannot survive on call center jobs.

I thought all the call center jobs already went to India. Those stuck up hindu pricks need to learn how to deal with people better. That's there lot. Besides that they speak english so it was a good fit. How's that for Karma.

Chinese make good factory workers because they don't question authority and they OBEY, unlike Americans. Besides that they all needed something to do with their lives. They were just living in mud huts and eating rice. Happy being miserable I guess.


[edit on 10-6-2009 by In nothing we trust]

Most people look at China as a unified country where massive new revenue streams and wealth have been created with manufacturing and exporting goods for Western market. While this is not untrue, there is a bigger picture.

China's vastness and unbalanced regional distribution creates a great strain on the Beijing centred government. An enormous amount of the cost of keeping China running and unified goes to underwriting the poorer Southern and Western regions. There has always a been tremendous concern there could we wide scale lack of co-operation and even attempts as separation. China is not as solid and unified as most in the West perceive.

And despite the displays of new wealth, there is a chronic shortage of available capital to the government with so much appropriated to maintaining some semblance of cohesion. Simply put the new money coming in just barely holds the country together. Threats to the newly established equilibrium are being felt already with the economic downturn.

China has risen and fallen before due to it's inherent problems.

Though many would like to believe that China has become very powerful one has to qualify that this is only so at the cost of dependence on the West as a demanding marketplace. China has less flexibility in coping with market contractions than it may seem.

I am only able to provide a link to the site main page, but have excerpted a few recent comments on China from Stratfor's June 2 GEOPOLITICAL INTELLIGENCE REPORT.

www.stratfor.com...

Beijing’s age-old problem has been trying to keep China in one piece. Beijing has to underwrite massive (and expensive) development programs to stitch the country together with a common infrastructure,.
[...]
The cost of such linkages instantly guarantees that while China may have a shot at being unified, it will always be capital-poor.
[...]
Modern China has turned to a state-centered finance model for this. Under the model, all of the scarce capital that is available is funneled to the state, which divvies it out via a handful of large state banks. These state banks then grant loans to various firms and local governments at below the cost of raising the capital. This provides a powerful economic stimulus that achieves maximum employment and growth
[...]
but comes at the cost of encouraging projects that are loss-making, as no one is ever called to account for failures. (They can just get a new loan.) The resultant growth is rapid, but it is also unsustainable. It is no wonder, then, that the central government has chosen to keep its $2 trillion of currency reserves in dollar-based assets; the rate of return is greater, the value holds over a long period, and Beijing doesn’t have to worry about the United States seceding.
Because the domestic market is considerably limited by the poor-capital nature of the country, most producers choose to tap export markets to generate income. In times of plenty this works fairly well, but when Chinese goods are not needed, the entire Chinese system can seize up. Lack of exports reduces capital availability, which constrains loan availability. This in turn not only damages the ability of firms to employ China’s legions of citizens, but it also removes the primary reason the disparate Chinese regions pay homage to Beijing.
[...]
China’s survival technique for the current recession is simple. Because exports, which account for roughly half of China’s economic activity, have sunk by half, Beijing is throwing the equivalent of the financial kitchen sink at the problem. China has force-fed more loans through the banks in the first four months of 2009 than it did in the entirety of 2008. The long-term result could well bury China beneath a mountain of bad loans
[...]
The bottom line remains, however: China’s recovery is completely dependent upon external demand for its production, and the most it can do on its own is tread water.

Mike

reply to post by SJE98


I'm afraid is it not as black and white as you seem to see it.

Since the death of Chairman Mao in the 70's, despite it being governed by the Communist Party, it would be quite inaccurate to describe China's economy as a communist system. If anything, it's more in line with capitalist systems. (remember that capitalist and democracy don't necessarily go hand in hand)

The US and the Western nations don't really have a capitalist system either. The dependence on corporate welfare and the implementation of various social programs in Western economies make it more of a socio-capitalist system.

I have no idea why people keep pointing to the former USSR as "proof" that communist systems don't work. Can I use the situation in Indonesia as "proof" that capitalist doesn't work?

reply to post by ConspiracyNut23


Very good analysis, and very close to the truth, while we have been feed that China is "A Communist country" that is only part of the truth At leas when it comes to the sector of the population under control of their communist regime.

China now has a new "class elite" the ones that controls the manufacturing and economic growth. This class works almost independently from the regime in power, this new class controls local governments, authorities and anything else, as long as the regime gets their cuts of profits everything works fine.

Do you know why?

The BRIC's are trying to control the NWO.
See link;www.abovetopsecret.com...

Also the IMF wants the global currency to be SDR's.
See link www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by wonderworld
Do you know why?

The BRIC's are trying to control the NWO.
See link;www.abovetopsecret.com...

Also the IMF wants the global currency to be SDR's.
See link www.abovetopsecret.com...

Ooooh I LOVE SDR theories. I remember a spate of those a few years ago, then suddenly nothing. Thanks for the links.

Originally posted by Rivyolie
Is anyone else connecting the dots here? Or am I imagining it?

3rd world coutries have debts issued to them in foreign currencies, often have crippling inflation, go into the same "death-spiral" described, and have some of the worst governments in the world. Naturally not everything can be blamed on foreign-currency debts, but some sure can.

[edit on 10/6/2009 by Rivyolie]

[edit on 10/6/2009 by Rivyolie]

I could call it poetic justice if USA issue in foreign currencies

Also you need to take in consideration of what the strength of the dollar is vs. the Yuen in the exchange rate. For example lets say party A owes party B $10 usd($) while party B uses Yuen(Y). And the exchange rate is 1:1($:Y). Breaks even. now lets say the dollar devaluates and the exchange rate is 2:1.
Now considering if the number amount doesn't change party A still owes $10 but party B only gets 5. Now if it was to be paid in Y then party A would have to pay back $20 to get to the original amount owed.

This said it sounds like China is trying to get us to shell out more cash. Maybe they are trying to squeeze an already strapped country (so they tell us) in an effort to destabilize us even more or maybe they are just trying to break even and not lose money.

This only works if there isn't a clause in the loan stating Party B will get paid the worth amount of 10 Y at the time that the loan was enacted.

Other wise China is just trying to raise their prestige. Or they could be saving money by not paying their moneychangers.

Originally posted by js331975
it sounds like China is trying to get us to shell out more cash. Maybe they are trying to squeeze an already strapped country (so they tell us) in an effort to destabilize us even more or maybe they are just trying to break even and not lose money.

This only works if there isn't a clause in the loan stating Party B will get paid the worth amount of 10 Y at the time that the loan was enacted.

Other wise China is just trying to raise their prestige. Or they could be saving money by not paying their moneychangers.

I posted an excerpt of an assessment of China's economic concerns which somehow got ignored because it conflict with our fantasy notions.

Beijing struggles to hold the country together with massive bank loans throughout it's the less productive regions that never really are repaid. It's the cost of keeping the country together.

Two Trillion in US bonds was still a good yield comparatively, and seemingly as iron clad guaranteed as anything on the plant.

But in the space of a year, China's exports have halved. The manufacturing boom underwrote the massive expansion and looked like it was going to unify a deeply fractured country.

Now the countries southern region has lost faith in the dream and will go back to subsistence agriculture as the attempt at a fast tracked Industrial Revolution has failed. Better poor and struggling than working for pennies an hour in capitalist sweatshops.

So despite the pomp and ceremony, China may be going back to square one. A country too large and populous to unify and keep on track. The pockets of commerce like Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong will still be where
the import/export money is concentrated.

But China as an economic powerhouse may be another boom/bust cycle.

We won't get reports, but heads will roll as fingers are pointed at economic advisers who said the American dollar was as good as gold.

Mike

I'm sure China wants more than the remaining 4 years on the government contracts for military Hummers after being awarded the AMGeneral division of GM.

Originally posted by mmiichael

Beijing struggles to hold the country together with massive bank loans throughout it's the less productive regions that never really are repaid. It's the cost of keeping the country together.

Mike

Dont worry Mike not all of us buy into the "Pop Culture" Belief system.
It makes for good rhetoric about the "Crumbling US of A". In reality China has severe issues of their own. I've noticed how people pleasantly ignore these facts in order to keep the myth ongoing.

China has made tremendous gains no doubt! Simply having them "Ask" to be paid back in yuan doesn't mean it will happen. Asking is one thing. Receiving them is a whole other ball game. Real power would be demonstrated if they "Told" The US to do so. 1.6 Billion people! If you divide their huge "Profits" Between the masses it dwindles down to nothing. Stay tuned.

China is not the great Dragon just yet more like a paper dragon. If they are not careful the whole smash can fly apart if they don't address the issues of the masses. The Elite few may have the "Power" now but once real openness and democracy and open capitalism takes hold in the main land not just in "Isolated" Business sectors the Chinese will get change all right but not the change they are expecting or want.


Concerns About Cost of China's Stimulus Grow

BEIJING -- The cost of China's stimulus program is turning out to be much larger than official figures indicate, raising the stakes for the government's attempt to restart high growth through massive borrowing.


"There is no such thing as a free stimulus package. There is a huge amount of unreported government debt, and we're adding to it now clearly," said Stephen Green, an economist for Standard Chartered in Shanghai.

THE FUTURE

Furure of China: A tiny elite achieves unimaginable wealth through strategic control and use of multinational financial and commodity assests that can me moved rapidly aroud the world. These wealth sources cannot be seen to originate in any one "country," as they are put together by dozens of remote, temporary teams and processsed in different global areas. These new ruling class members live in extreme splendour behind heavily-fortified luxury compopunds staffed with private security companies. They consume the typical melange of international luxury products, from Rolls Royce and Prada to Paris Haute-Couture dresses and state-of-the-art tech toys; habits shared by their compatriots elswehere in the world. Their luxury-hotel-mediated harems and concubines are drawn from the prettiest samples of womenflesh drawn from around what an increasingly desperate globe has to offer. The elite go to elite international univerisites with, often marry, and do business with and form partnerships with similar wealthy from around the world. Meanwhile, an increasingly poverty-stricken, and desperate rabble of near-skeletons far outnumbering the elites cower in crude shacks amidst a ruined, toxic landscape, their barely literate and psyches dulled with the natrural sedititaves of depression and failure and the stimulant of simmering, ambient rage.

Furure of the US: A tiny elite achieves unimaginable wealth through strategic control and use of multinational financial and commodity assests that can me moved rapidly aroud the world. These wealth sources cannot be seen to originate in any one "country," as they are put together by dozens of remote, temporary teams and processsed in different global areas. These new ruling class members live in extreme splendour behind heavily-fortified luxury compopunds staffed with private security companies. They consume the typical melange of international luxury products, from Rolls Royce and Prada to Paris Haute-Couture dresses and state-of-the-art tech toys; habits shared by their compatriots elswehere in the world. Their luxury-hotel-mediated harems and concubines are drawn from the prettiest samples of womenflesh drawn from around what an increasingly desperate globe has to offer. The elite go to elite international univerisites with, often marry, and do business with and form partnerships with similar wealthy from around the world. Meanwhile, an increasingly poverty-stricken, and desperate rabble of near-skeletons far outnumbering the elites cower in crude shacks amidst a ruined, toxic landscape, their barely literate and psyches dulled with the natrural sedititaves of depression and failure and the stimulant of simmering, ambient rage.

Future of India: A tiny elite achieves unimaginable wealth through strategic control and use of multinational financial and commodity assests that can me moved rapidly aroud the world. These wealth sources cannot be seen to originate in any one "country," as they are put together by dozens of remote, temporary teams and processsed in different global areas. These new ruling class members live in extreme splendour behind heavily-fortified luxury compopunds staffed with private security companies. They consume the typical melange of international luxury products, from Rolls Royce and Prada to Paris Haute-Couture dresses and state-of-the-art tech toys; habits shared by their compatriots elswehere in the world. Their luxury-hotel-mediated harems and concubines are drawn from the prettiest samples of womenflesh drawn from around what an increasingly desperate globe has to offer. The elite go to elite international univerisites with, often marry, and do business with and form partnerships with similar wealthy from around the world. Meanwhile, an increasingly poverty-stricken, and desperate rabble of near-skeletons far outnumbering the elites cower in crude shacks amidst a ruined, toxic landscape, their barely literate and psyches dulled with the natrural sedititaves of depression and failure and the stimulant of simmering, ambient rage.

Future of Europe: A tiny elite achieves unimaginable wealth through strategic control and use of multinational financial and commodity assests that can me moved rapidly aroud the world. These wealth sources cannot be seen to originate in any one "country," as they are put together by dozens of remote, temporary teams and processsed in different global areas. These new ruling class members live in extreme splendour behind heavily-fortified luxury compopunds staffed with private security companies. They consume the typical melange of international luxury products, from Rolls Royce and Prada to Paris Haute-Couture dresses and state-of-the-art tech toys; habits shared by their compatriots elswehere in the world. Their luxury-hotel-mediated harems and concubines are drawn from the prettiest samples of womenflesh drawn from around what an increasingly desperate globe has to offer. The elite go to elite international univerisites with, often marry, and do business with and form partnerships with similar wealthy from around the world. Meanwhile, an increasingly poverty-stricken, and desperate rabble of near-skeletons far outnumbering the elites cower in crude shacks amidst a ruined, toxic landscape, their barely literate and psyches dulled with the natrural sedititaves of depression and failure and the stimulant of simmering, ambient rage.

Future of everywhere else: A tiny elite achieves unimaginable wealth through strategic control and use of multinational financial and commodity assests that can me moved rapidly aroud the world. These wealth sources cannot be seen to originate in any one "country," as they are put together by dozens of remote, temporary teams and processsed in different global areas. These new ruling class members live in extreme splendour behind heavily-fortified luxury compopunds staffed with private security companies. They consume the typical melange of international luxury products, from Rolls Royce and Prada to Paris Haute-Couture dresses and state-of-the-art tech toys; habits shared by their compatriots elswehere in the world. Their luxury-hotel-mediated harems and concubines are drawn from the prettiest samples of womenflesh drawn from around what an increasingly desperate globe has to offer. The elite go to elite international univerisites with, often marry, and do business with and form partnerships with similar wealthy from around the world. Meanwhile, an increasingly poverty-stricken, and desperate rabble of near-skeletons far outnumbering the elites cower in crude shacks amidst a ruined, toxic landscape, their barely literate and psyches dulled with the natrural sedititaves of depression and failure and the stimulant of simmering, ambient rage.

Originally posted by silent thunder
Furure of [Fill in the Blank]: A tiny elite achieves unimaginable wealth through strategic control and use of multinational financial and commodity assests that can me moved rapidly aroud the world. These wealth sources cannot be seen to originate in any one "country," as they are put together by dozens of remote, temporary teams and processsed in different global areas.

[...]

Meanwhile, an increasingly poverty-stricken, and desperate rabble of near-skeletons far outnumbering the elites cower in crude shacks amidst a ruined, toxic landscape, their barely literate and psyches dulled with the natrural sedititaves of depression and failure and the stimulant of simmering, ambient rage.

Thanks ofr this. All to true.

Also describes the present for most of the worlds, Much of Africa, the Middle East, etc.

In fact looks a lot like the past, too.

History unwinding? History in cycles? All civilized history, with a 20th Century experiment in trying to spread the wealth more equitably?

Maybe make work projects for the never to be employed might be a good idea? Giant pyramids?


Mike

BREAKING

HOLY SMOKE!

Two Japanese nationals arrested in Italy with $134 BILLION in undeclared US treasury bonds! Quick sell off? interesting!

2 Japanese carrying $134 bil worth of U.S. bonds detained in Italy
Thursday 11th June, 06:18 AM JST

ROME —
Two Japanese nationals were detained by Italian financial police last week after trying to enter Switzerland with $134 billion worth of undeclared U.S. bonds, mostly Treasury bonds, an Italian daily said Wednesday. The Japanese consulate general in Milan confirmed that the detention had taken place and said it was trying to confirm with Italian authorities whether the two were indeed Japanese nationals and their identities.

www.japantoday.com...


www.japantoday.com...

Two Japanese nationals arrested in Italy with $134 BILLION in undeclared US treasury bonds! Quick sell off? interesting!