Chinese want US bonds issued in yuan rather than dollars, page 3
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 31 times


reply posted on 9-6-2009 @ 12:46 PM by marg6043
reply to post by disgustedbyhumanity


Have you seen the US political whores doing anything but bending over to the Chinese government? I tell you what our nation leaders don't dare to say not to China.




reply posted on 9-6-2009 @ 12:53 PM by ConspiracyNut23
reply to post by disgustedbyhumanity


You mean by not allowing their currency to free float and become subject to attack as in Argentina and in Russia, they are not "playing fair"?

I hope you can see that the US dollar currently has an unfair advantage over other currencies. It's been that way since Bretton Woods in '44.

--

Thanks for the link Marg. I'm trying to find another article confirming the Oil Bourse. Wiki just use the one you already cited above.



[edit on 9/6/09 by ConspiracyNut23]



reply posted on 9-6-2009 @ 01:15 PM by marg6043
reply to post by ConspiracyNut23


That is ok, you know US could have been able to avoid the damage that China has done to our economy if our leaders were smart enough to sit through history class and take upon themselves to read the art of war.

But with the state of affairs of US education no wonder we have so many morons in our government.

And that is a joke just to make it sound nice.

But every time our good for nothing politicians goes to China they are doing nothing but kissing Chinas butt and begging them to keep buying our debt.

The US dollars has enjoyed for many years the only thing that no other currency had been able to achieved it has remained the same through the years against any adversities.

But the greed of our politicians and the irresponsible spending and borrowing are eroding our dollars strength over the world and what they do to fix the problem? they keep borrowing and spending like drunken sailors.

Actually when the Euro came to be that's when the dollars started to lose its hold.

But that is another thread and another story.


reply posted on 9-6-2009 @ 01:21 PM by Chevalerous
reply to post by ConspiracyNut23


You know, China is doing trading swaps in Yuan right now with Venezuela & Russia for oil.

By doing so, they bypass the the Petro Dollar Recycling system all together!

Iranian Oil Bourse is selling oil to China in Euro & Yen, also bypassing the dollar.

The dollar hegemony, the privileges and advantages of holding the dollar as a reserve currency since the most unfair 1944 Bretton Woods - could soon be over!

Well! this is sad news for our American friends! but quite good news for the rest of the world!

Meanwhile, America is still very important for the stability in some parts of the world, but without money the USA can't keep paying for its military expenses anymore!

And when that is happening, then what? - WAR? or will it be like when the Soviet Union went default on it self? - will it happen quietly?




[edit on 9-6-2009 by Chevalerous]


reply posted on 9-6-2009 @ 01:59 PM by Amagnon
Originally posted by GreenBicMan
Why should we issue it in Yuan? So we can issue it in their manipulated currency?

Of course they would want this. No way they get this though. Remember, those guys rely on us buying their crap too... I think this article is garbage IMO


You say no way they can get it through? They are talking about Chinese banks right? Why can't they issue their own debt in their own currency?

As for their currency being manipulated - well, I was going to say it is like the pot calling the kettle black .. but that's a total euphemism, the $US is THE manipulated currency - it is totally BASED on manipulation and nothing else.

The Chinese were simply trying to devalue their own currency because the $US was falling like a brick (for good reasons) so they could maintain their export strength. The amount of their 'manipulation' is not even worth mentioning in comparison to the $US which is a totally ficticious currency based only on military power and coercion - not on the fundamentals of manufacturing, commodities and effective infrastructure.

The $US is basically worth nothing - because all your manufacturing is dead, and the US has a negative balance of trade which includes commodities. On what is the US dollar based? Nothing tangible - and everyone is waking up that the US is over extended militarily - the dollar exodus began a while ago.

Gold and silver manipulation, and coercing other countries to participate in the 'stimulus' idea is the only thing propping the dollar up still. Some countries simply won't destroy their currency to prop up the dollar, and the manipulation of gold and silver should reach a limit at some point.

I think the Fed is simply using a lot of stimulus money at the moment to put out gold and silver paper - they push the price down by over printing gold and silver futures - then they let the price go up near delivery time. So people cash in the paper for Fed reserve notes instead of the physical metal - it costs money, but not as much as would be lost if gold and silver went to the prices they should be at.

Of course that cash going directly into the system is fueling inflation and NOT creating any useful manufacturing or jobs - what it is doing is raising the pressure on gold and silver like a pressure cooker - when the top comes off the $US will plummet like a brick and people will be screaming for the Amero to save them.

[edit on 9-6-2009 by Amagnon]


reply posted on 9-6-2009 @ 02:15 PM by Chevalerous
Originally posted by Gazrok
Well! this is sad news for our American friends! but quite good news for the rest of the world!


Not at all. America is the world's largest collection of consumers, and we've already seen how bad financials in America can have an instant and devastating effect on the entire world financial stage.

Not to mention: World's largest, most advanced military + threat of extinction = (well, I think anyone can do the math here).... Nobody wants to see that equation completed...

For ALL of our sakes, it's in everyone's far greater interests to keep the US viable. In addition, China may own the majority of US debt, but at the same time, the US is China's biggest customer. China would be biting the hand that feeds it, as the US would be doing in any actions against China. There is a symbiotic relationship there, and both nations' best interests are served in sustaining that....


Well my friend! you need to read up on the latest developments then!

China could invest all this money in China to raise their standard of living and become consumers themselves, and let the Asian union grow with consumers in the Asian market!

There are serious talks inside of China to cut the American consumers off! and instead focus to the growing Asian markets and the rest of the world!

300.000.000 consumers is easy to replace just within Asia!

Add to this, cheaper consumer goods to the worlds biggest market in the EU with 500.000.000 potential consumers if we get the same cheap prices on goods as you got in the US!

Then for fun we can also add in the rest of the BRIC countries like India, Brazil, Russia that are doing trading swaps with China right now! If they get the same low good prices on consumer products you have at least a total of 1 billion new consumers to Chinas manufacturing products to replace the 300.000.000 American consumers!

And no! you can't threaten the whole world with arms anymore! those days are over! - and if some crazy politicians or the US military would try?!

They would be crushed by a united world through financial and economical means into submission!

You can never win a world war against the whole united world!

Be humble!


[edit on 9-6-2009 by Chevalerous]


reply posted on 9-6-2009 @ 03:29 PM by marg6043
reply to post by Chevalerous


China is doing what America did before and after the great depression, they prop an elite class and now they are allowing their servants (I mean citizens) to be part of that revolution, but all under the control of a communist leadership. But they have a great advantage, they have learned from the greatest of all and they will try to avoid the same mistakes that the greatest of all had made.


reply posted on 9-6-2009 @ 03:49 PM by Solomons
reply to post by Gazrok


Sorry,but europe has overtaken america in the consumer department and its still expanding and will keep expanding.Europe is an economic powerhouse ie largest in the world.Any country would be glad to have europeans buying their products..."cough" the chinese.They could ditch America and still be fine contrary to popular belief.Along with the growing asian markets....America is just the fat guy that is making the boat sink..except he has an awfully large bit of power behind all that fat.Course you wont use it,because with the flick of a pen London could bankrupt you...not much use having such a large military when you cant afford to power it.


reply posted on 9-6-2009 @ 03:56 PM by marg6043
reply to post by Solomons


I believe it, by the time China decide to trash the US is because they already have the support of "other" trading partners in the world.

They have been expanding while America has been wagging wars in the middle east, from South America to Africa and back.


reply posted on 9-6-2009 @ 04:25 PM by Chevalerous
Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by Chevalerous


China is doing what America did before and after the great depression, they prop an elite class and now they are allowing their servants (I mean citizens) to be part of that revolution, but all under the control of a communist leadership. But they have a great advantage, they have learned from the greatest of all and they will try to avoid the same mistakes that the greatest of all had made.



Yes exactly marge!

But I think it's foolish to underestimate a civilization with written records dating back 4,000 years, and it's fascinating that Sun Tzu wrote Art of War 2400 years ago which means that the Chinese philosophy is light years ahead of ours here in the western world.

You can't fool these people easy! they know every trick in the book of tricks!

China has been a rather peaceful civilization through history, compared to other civilizations!

China is the next world empire, It's their turn now! - and hopefully they chose a more peaceful path within the new world order?


reply posted on 9-6-2009 @ 05:04 PM by marg6043
reply to post by Chevalerous


This is going to sound like I am full of it, but to tell you the truth, two years ago when this site used to have their Politics forum I used to tell people that China was going to fight the US, everybody thought that is was all about war, but no such thing they know that a war is not the smart way to go, the economic war is a more easy way to eliminated the enemy in todays global markets, and for anybody that has at least a littler bit of knowleadge of the Art of War would understood that.

Many used to think that I was crazy that this was not truth that China was still in the meddle ages and collecting rice in swamps and that US was invencible.

Guess what, those that knew what was going on supported my views and opinions of the nations economy downfall of consumerism and the raise of the China empire.

That was only two years ago, it didn't look long for China to get to this point actually they have done it quite fast.

But America was too busy fighting wars to even notice what was going on under our own noses.

Anybody that followed the markets knew that the picture of health and wealth backed by Bush word of we have a solid economy was nothing than a mirage.



[edit on 9-6-2009 by marg6043]


reply posted on 9-6-2009 @ 06:41 PM by silent thunder
Originally posted by Chevalerous

China has been a rather peaceful civilization through history, compared to other civilizations!


Well, aside from the 1,828 major recorded famines in Chinese history, you may be on to something there...

Or, ever read anything about the An Shi Rebellion of the 750s? With a death toll estimated around 36 million, it easily had the highest corpse count in absolute numbers of any global event until World War II....and that was back in the 8th century. In relative terms, the stats from that little freakshow (personally, I've always enjoyed the rather Baron-Harkonnen-esqe nature of An Lushan himself, in a dark sort of way) are even starker...a 75% death toll that made the European Black Death's 33% depopulation event look like a mere demographic burp. And of course there are horrors like the Great Leap Forward, well within living memory...that one had a death toll somewhere between 20 and 43 million; it appears nobody really quite wants to know for sure, you see.

But yeah, sure, China...land of peace...bwhahahaha. Not to be rude but I couldn't resist those barbs...China has known great periods of peace perhaps longer than any Europe has experienced, and its record regarding external conflicts with other global great powers (unfortunate 19th century entanglements aside) is certainly enviable...but at the same time, nobody knows how to shake it up quite like the Chinese. Their history is full of a number particularly disturbing internal disequibrium events that have the dubious honor of outstripping much of Western history in bredth, depth, and ferocity.




[edit on 6/9/09 by silent thunder]


reply posted on 9-6-2009 @ 06:53 PM by StellarX
From early indications, we assumed that May car sales would be great in China. Yet, we admit being kept speechless by the news that China’s car sales rocketed up 55 percent in May. That’s the most since the beginning of this year, data from China Passenger Car Association shows. And it’s the biggest growth China has seen in a long time.

According to Gasgoo, sales of passenger cars, multipurpose vehicles, sport utility vehicles and minivans (that’s as close to the “Light Vehicle” count they can get in China—pickups aren’t counted) rose to 812,178 units in May, up 54.7 percent from a year earlier. Vehicle sales in the first five months climbed 29.6 percent to 3.65 million units.

China clearly escapes the carpocalypse at thundering speed. Even in its darkest period, 2008, Chinese auto makers edged out a 6.7 percent rise, after a 22 percent rise the year before. China is solidly back in double digits growth territory, and from all accounts, 2009 should become its best year ever.

www.thetruthaboutcars.com...’s-car-sales-up-55-percent/


Now perhaps car sales isn't everything but whatever the Chinese government is doing it's definetely stimulating this particular market.

China’s economic output was 6.1 percent higher in the first quarter than a year earlier, the National Bureau of Statistics said, but a range of statistics showed that March was better than January or February.

China’s annual growth rate appeared slow in the first quarter after the 6.8 percent rate in the fourth quarter of 2008, partly because it was being compared with the economy’s formidable output in the first quarter of last year. Then, many factories were operating with extensive overtime, and the rate of inflation was approaching double digits despite considerable efforts by Chinese officials to prevent the economy from overheating.

www.nytimes.com...


I have always maintained that the Chinese government can use their vast volumes of dollar reserves to stimulate their local markets if their export market finally started going under and i think this might very well be some indications that they may in fact be willing to protect and stimulate their consumer markets by large cash infusions.

Stellar

[edit on 9-6-2009 by StellarX]



reply posted on 9-6-2009 @ 07:39 PM by marg6043
reply to post by silent thunder


China isolationism is what have kept China pretty safe within their boundaries, but history tells that peaceful they are not when challenged they will retaliate before was with might now is with the same tools that has made other nations successful economically.

People underestimate China but a nation of fools they are not.


reply posted on 9-6-2009 @ 09:41 PM by silent thunder
Another interesting piece along similar lines:



"...Taken in isolation, any one point is important in its own right, but not enough to convince of a structural change. Taken in entirety, the many points create a full picture that is more easily recognized. The ruinous events of the Wall Street banks last September and October surely served as an extreme event loaded with profound disruption. The Chinese have proceeded with a transition to yuan-based domestic banking, with an installation of yuan swap facilities around the world, with an ASEAN regional fund again supplied by yuan for flexible purposes, with permission granted to two Hong Kong banks to sell yuan-based bonds, with an admitted rise in significant gold bullion reserves, and with continued verbal battles over legitimacy of the USDollar as the global reserve currency. These Chinese initiatives in recent weeks, occurring rapidly, are serving as a collective extreme event with the potential for profound disruption. A gold-backed yuan currency would surely cause massive disruption in a climax merger of events. The barter system set up between Russia and Europe will bypass the US$-based settlement system, as will the barter system set up between Russia and China. The avoidance of contract settlement in USDollars would result in extreme disruption to the global banking system. The creditor nations are plotting to organize and launch alternative currencies, maybe to fortify existing currencies (like the euro or yuan or ruble) with a gold component, maybe also with a crude oil component. A challenge to the USDollar by asset-backed currencies would result in extreme disruption to the global banking system. The hidden nitroglycerine to the disruptions is the Russian military, and any pledges of support for nations attempted to force systemic changes. These are just some important examples of change agents..."


More at source (worth a look IMHO):
news.goldseek.com...


reply posted on 10-6-2009 @ 02:37 AM by audas
Originally posted by silent thunder
Originally posted by Chevalerous

China has been a rather peaceful civilization through history, compared to other civilizations!


Well, aside from the 1,828 major recorded famines in Chinese history, you may be on to something there...

Or, ever read anything about the An Shi Rebellion of the 750s? With a death toll estimated around 36 million, it easily had the highest corpse count in absolute numbers of any global event until World War II....and that was back in the 8th century. In relative terms, the stats from that little freakshow (personally, I've always enjoyed the rather Baron-Harkonnen-esqe nature of An Lushan himself, in a dark sort of way) are even starker...a 75% death toll that made the European Black Death's 33% depopulation event look like a mere demographic burp. And of course there are horrors like the Great Leap Forward, well within living memory...that one had a death toll somewhere between 20 and 43 million; it appears nobody really quite wants to know for sure, you see.

But yeah, sure, China...land of peace...bwhahahaha. Not to be rude but I couldn't resist those barbs...China has known great periods of peace perhaps longer than any Europe has experienced, and its record regarding external conflicts with other global great powers (unfortunate 19th century entanglements aside) is certainly enviable...but at the same time, nobody knows how to shake it up quite like the Chinese. Their history is full of a number particularly disturbing internal disequibrium events that have the dubious honor of outstripping much of Western history in bredth, depth, and ferocity.




[edit on 6/9/09 by silent thunder]


What a profoundly vacuous post - your first point , simply links to a quote on wiki which which is in itself a link to another wiki page with nothing more about this ludicrous claim. Rather the page goes on to document the issues of famine in the white west -

The rest of your post then banters on about issues within China, the greatest historical nation in history - as though this discredited them - not withstanding the genocide of the whites from Australia, through Africa, the Americas etc -

I studied Chinese for over a decade, travelled there before capitalisation and prior to the massacre of 1989 - they are an incredible nation beyond the US in so many ways it is beyond imagination.

Your post smacked of quick internet checks on things to discredit them with - and only serves to highlight your profound lack of understanding of the most significant nation on earth historically and culturally.

Sorry but not sure what you are even posting.


reply posted on 10-6-2009 @ 02:41 AM by audas
Originally posted by Chevalerous
reply to post by ConspiracyNut23


You know, China is doing trading swaps in Yuan right now with Venezuela & Russia for oil.

By doing so, they bypass the the Petro Dollar Recycling system all together!

Iranian Oil Bourse is selling oil to China in Euro & Yen, also bypassing the dollar.

The dollar hegemony, the privileges and advantages of holding the dollar as a reserve currency since the most unfair 1944 Bretton Woods - could soon be over!

Well! this is sad news for our American friends! but quite good news for the rest of the world!

Meanwhile, America is still very important for the stability in some parts of the world, but without money the USA can't keep paying for its military expenses anymore!

And when that is happening, then what? - WAR? or will it be like when the Soviet Union went default on it self? - will it happen quietly?




[edit on 9-6-2009 by Chevalerous]


Who are you - you are the first person to come onto ATS with an ounce of knowledge or understanding - I would congratulate and laud your presence if I did not cherish my unique status amongst these mere mortals -

See how long you last with the incessant inanities -


reply posted on 10-6-2009 @ 02:48 AM by silent thunder
Originally posted by audas


What a profoundly vacuous post - your first point , simply links to a quote on wiki which which is in itself a link to another wiki page with nothing more about this ludicrous claim. Rather the page goes on to document the issues of famine in the white west -

The rest of your post then banters on about issues within China, the greatest historical nation in history - as though this discredited them - not withstanding the genocide of the whites from Australia, through Africa, the Americas etc -

I studied Chinese for over a decade, travelled there before capitalisation and prior to the massacre of 1989 - they are an incredible nation beyond the US in so many ways it is beyond imagination.

Your post smacked of quick internet checks on things to discredit them with - and only serves to highlight your profound lack of understanding of the most significant nation on earth historically and culturally.

Sorry but not sure what you are even posting.


Good lord...are you denying the validity of the death tolls in the events I pointed out?
我想你那样不对.

I picked wiki because it was the first link that came up, but all of my statements are well-known historical facts that no serious scholar would debate. Give me a readily accessible source you trust and I'll find you similar figures...do you trust the Encylopedia Britanica? Look up the death tolls for the An Lushan event or the Great Leap Forward. You won't find vastly different figures, I assure you.

These are not controversial points, you know. You may have studied Chinese for over a decade, but appparently you are a bit rusty on your history.

And as for the dark history of the West, nowhere do I deny the events you mention. But that is not the topic of our thread, my friend. If you'd like to discuss the historical horrors of the west, by all means start another thread along those lines and I'm sure you can find plenty of sad statistics that I won't argue with. However, in this case, I was responding to a specific post claiming that China had a "more peaceful history" than elsewhere. I scattered a few well-known examples to demonstrate otherwise. I think Chinese death-counts in the tens of millions speak for themselves in rebutting such a claim, don't you?

One more thing; I also don't appreciate the rather personal tone of your post. Let's keep it friendly, 这样行吗?



[edit on 6/10/09 by silent thunder]
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