The Evolution of Belief

If we were to approach all of the world's belief systems, origins to present day... from a truly objective perspective we would find a family tree like no other,

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/abee076cd168.gif[/atsimg]

...and maybe for once and for all we would stop fighting over our differences in scripts of faith

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3bb25d48ccdd.jpg[/atsimg]

and instead embrace independent inquiry and critical-thinking.

With our deeper understanding or our place in the universe via the sciences; astrology, psychology/sociology and archeology and the progressive eclectic mix of beliefs and rise of openly agnostic/atheist perspectives replacing old dogmas that were once imposed on the masses a symptom of survival. With the real potential for a biblically self-fulfilling armageddon inching nearer year by year, from the viewpoint of religion being a symptom of the human condition... are these changes in our traditional belief-systems... a sign that we are evolution?

credits: a BIG thank you goes out to prof badmedia and prof diamond for inspiring the creation of this thread

[edit on 8-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]

The conspiracy of this matter can be seen in all movements of the established belief systems that advocate their singular view against and above all others. Christians United for Israel is a prime example of a threat we must grow to counteract or we will be the cause of our own end.



The sick and twisted irony of having a faith-based organization established for the sole purpose of saving people, yet their actions promote our complete destruction in order to do so... in the meantime the glory of the end-days are sufficient ammo in scaring people on the fence into the cause.

[edit on 8-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]

After reading A History Of God by Karen Armstrong, I am convinced we make things up in order to justify whatever it is we are doing at that point in history.
My opinion is that most religious works were written in harsh political times.

I just love that cartoon, it pretty much tells the whole story doesn't it?

Humans just seem to need to compete, my team is better than yours, my house is better than yours, my kids are better than yours, so for man to have this cross over..."my god is bigger, badder, and is going to kill yours" fits right in. How sad that we cannot see the good in religion and leave the competition out. Though not a christian in the traditional sense I have seen people "find Jesus" and seen their lives transformed. I have also seen the same with many spiritual pursuits whether it be Islam, LDS, Jehovah's Witness, Wicca, Buddhist, or pure love of god with no strings attached. I feel that whatever works for a person is what they should do. I am totally against the whole task of converting all you come into contact with into your personal brand of truth.

John Hagee is by far one of the most dangerous blow hards out there. He is as inflammatory as those he condemns and is as much of a fundamentalist zealot as any Jihad mad person from the Middle East. Scary thing that so many in government hold to his way of thinking.

Professor Diamond argues that religion has encompassed at least four independent components that have arisen or disappeared at different stages of development of human societies over the last 10,000 years.



Jared Diamond, professor of geography at UCLA, received the Pulitzer Prize for non-fiction in 1998 for Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies. In 1999, he received the National Medal of Science. His most recent book is Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed.

Originally posted by The All Seeing I

Christians United for Israel is a prime example of a threat we must grow to counteract or we will be the cause of our own end.

By counteracting this movement, especially by brute force, just fulfills the Biblical prophecy.

This is exactly what they wanted to happen for them to be persecuted initially, then they counter attack with an unimaginable force.

reply to post by The All Seeing I


These "beliefs" are names and descriptions given to a human thought.
You may like to divide them up into many different categories.

The true history of "belief" can never be repeated, as it was not merely a collection of individual thoughts. It was and is a resonance of thought, which is and has always been experienced at any moment.

Thought itself, is the highest existence. The highest reality.
It is hard indeed to put a thought into words.
It is much harder yet to put a collection of thoughts under a single word.

Consciousness itself is not confined to the brain.
It is spread throughout the body.
It is being experienced by every electron, by every chemical, by every living cell, by every organ, and by You.

The universe is a vessel, full of empty space. Nothing.
It is by the virtue of nothing, that we have Something.
So you are a vessel. Full of empty space. Mixed with something.
That which makes up your body is worthless.
A pile of carbon and a pot of water.

The water is a vehicle for consciousness.
Thought boils up through the water like in a pot on the stove.
Little bubbles form at the bottom, far from experience, deep in the caves of mind.
As they join together so they float to the top.

The surface of the water is your I.
So thought has been created over history.
And experienced by the I.
Who has put it into words.

But ask yourself this.
Where does the bubble come from?
The source is the same.

The answer is in front of your eyes.
It is at the tip of your tongue.
You can feel it inside you.

There is only one truth.
It flows through everything.
Not just through you or me.

If you want to know God.
You must first know yourself.
If you want to know yourself.
You must return to the source.

In the beginning, there was one.

"I"
"I AM"
"I AM ONE"
These where I's first thoughts.

"Two"
There was two.
From Two came Three.
From Three came the Creatures. The Created ones.

So we exist only in the Mind of I.
But of Him many are not aware.
We look to figures, and symbols for knowledge.
We turn to words, and arguments.
"My idea is better than yours"

The greatest folly is denying your maker.
You cut yourself from the vine.
Religion and beliefs are a natural expression of human consciousness.
It is a sign that we are not yet dead.

[edit on 8-6-2009 by iulslion]

[edit on 8-6-2009 by iulslion]

If it's an evolution of beliefs, where do they all come from? There is a line there that they all originate from, but from where is that line supposed to be? Just a general belief in god/something higher?

Also, why are gnostic under Catholicism? That is most certainly untrue as the RCC actively persecuted gnostic. Also, gnostic just means "with knowledge", there are many many forms of it.

Jesus was obviously one with knowledge. Thus he was a gnostic. Which also brings us back to the original paragraph there. From what are all these things connected by? Either people made it up, or a few people were gnostic and had knowledge.

What the chart ignores is that from that knowledge, people who lack the same understanding pick it up, and try to apply things they don't understand. Along comes people looking for power, and they turn it into other things. And of course, that is also where some of them may have come from, those gaining power over others.

Looks like someone just listed a bunch of religions, grouped them up by similarities and drew a bunch of lines that are too confusing to take in at once. There are obvious mistakes in it, just as I pointed out with gnostics. To say that gnostics evolved from catholics is just so wrong it's not even a good joke.

The premise of this thread seems to be based on the reader believing that god or higher things are false, that religion is 100% made up, and that it only changes or evolves based on what the people want to believe.

Do you know the different between accepting things and having real understanding? I post this all the time, but here goes again. I'll use math as an example, as we all understanding math, thus we can easily tell the difference.

The man who accepts 1+1=2 does not have understanding. He doesn't know how to add. He only knows 1+1=2 because someone told him that. He can repeat it perfectly, but he can't apply it in the world around him without understanding. As well, because he lacks understanding on how to add, he doesn't realize 1+2=3, or any of the infinite true expressions of math. Unless of course someone tells him. The person who does understand has no problem at all doing this. The person who understands see's "A+B=C". They see the equation itself.

The same thing applies in religion. The majority of people in religions just accept what people tell them, they do not understand. And that is what "they" want. Because as they do not understand, they are unable to apply the understanding and principles to their daily lives. No different than the man who accepted 1+1=2 is not able to apply that to their daily lives. As well, they reject anything that is not exactly what that religion says, IE: other religions, because it's not the same word. No different than 1 person who accepted 1+1=2 might fight and argue with another person who accepted 1+2=3. Both of them may be saying something that is true, but both are truly ignorant and without understanding.

Because they do not understand, they can be manipulated into believing or doing just about anything, so long as it sounds good, or comes from an authority they think they relate too. And when you get to what religions do and believe, that is normally who you will be dealing with. It's what the chart is about, as the author of the chart clearly doesn't have a clue what the different in gnostic and religion is. No clue on the actual understanding of those religions.

It's about like arguing over if the neo, the machines and the matrix is literally real. It doesn't matter which side of the argument you are on there, you missed the real truth of the movie.

"Any fool can know. The point is to understand." — Albert Einstein

Check out this bible verse, says the same thing. Notice the use of those who accept and then lack understanding.

1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Knowledge is the curse of man.
There is only one truth.
It is the way.

All creatures know the way.
Only man, chooses knowledge.

As it says in the Bible.
Because we have eaten from the tree of Knowledge,
We are fallen.

Jesus did not need human knowledge, or understanding.
He says so himself.
He calls the wise men, and the educated - fools.

The more we learn, the more we muddy the water of our mind.
You cannot be saved by what you know, less then you can be saved by your actions.

You can act kindly toward another, with evil intention.
Just as you can do a wrong, with good intentions.

Why do you seek knowledge?
So that you can have power?
This is the road to destruction.
Death.

"If you eat from the tree, ye shall surely die"

reply to post by iulslion


He doesn't say such things at all. And you have already eaten from the "tree", so it's not like you can just take it back by not using the things given to you. What Jesus talks about is what I was talking about, those things which are accepted as true, but lack understanding. Jesus speaks in parables to give understanding for example. When you have understanding, then you will be able to apply to your life. That's not what you are doing at all.

www.biblegateway.com...

Gonna highlight a few points of this chapter, it's all good but can't be quoting an entire chapter.

Proverbs 8

1Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

2She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

....

5O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

6Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

7For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

...

14Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

...

17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

...

33Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

34Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

Purposely staying ignorant is just... well ignorant. It has nothing to do with being ignorant. Jesus even likens those who follow his way as to being wise.

But there is things which are accepted by and among men which makes people think they are smart or wise, but in reality they are not as they lack understanding.

Blind = ignorant. Staying blind is not the point at all.

----

To the OP: This is why you can't generalize things like religion and such. It's just way too complicated to do that. There is quite a bit of difference between those who accept and those who understand.

Note: I am not contending with other posters, and I am not preaching any religion. I am merely giving my opinion.

You can never be as innocent as a child, because of what you know.
It is how you use your knowledge, and with what intention that matters.

Yes, all have eaten from the tree, and so we all are fallen.
Individually, and as a species.
It is because of our thoughts, that we are fallen.
It is our thoughts that lead to our actions.

Therefore guard your mind with vigilance.
Because once you know, it cannot be undone.
Knowledge comes with great responsability.

I do not want to know everything.
Please do not confuse this with ignorance.
Knowledge is useful. It is a tool.
But what know you, which has not already been known?

We can try to categorize, name and understand the world until the end of days. But we will never find the truth in this way.
We will find lies upon lies.

Knowledge is a means to an end.
It is not the end in itself.
Wisdom comes from discernment, rejection of much knowledge, if not all.

The story of Babel comes to mind.
Because they all spoke the same language, knowledge was abundant.
And the people where good, for some time.

But as their knowledge grew, so did their power.
As their power grew, so they believed that the power was theirs.
That they where gods.

With their knowledge and power, they build great things.
They attempted to immortalize themselves, as gods.

This is what lead to their destruction. And it is the same today.

As you know the Illuminatti claim to have secret knowledge.
Yet they dedicate themselves to Satan, why do u think this is?

The truth does not hide in the shadows, it is there for everyone to see. Jesus didn't study with the educated, he did not learn what he knew at school or from books.
His wisdom came from observation, meditation, and dedication to the way. As with all great thinkers, i believe you will find the same.

We as a race, have forgotten what matters, and we fill our minds with the knowledge of the world, which we use to make life easier for ourselves. Just look at what this has done to the uneducated world. Death and poverty rain, even though we have all the "technology" to solve it.

It is this great knowledge we have to thank for almost every problem we face today.

Originally posted by badmedia
If it's an evolution of beliefs, where do they all come from? There is a line there that they all originate from, but from where is that line supposed to be? Just a general belief in god/something higher?

I think it's fair to say that atheism is a belief that there is no god. Agnostic wasn't listed, likely due to the position being neutral. As for the question of where do all of these belief systems come from can be found in the roots of our ancient ancestors' collective experience in relationship with the land and seasons.

Also, why are gnostic under Catholicism? That is most certainly untrue as the RCC actively persecuted gnostic. Also, gnostic just means "with knowledge", there are many many forms of it. ....Looks like someone just listed a bunch of religions, grouped them up by similarities and drew a bunch of lines that are too confusing to take in at once. There are obvious mistakes in it, just as I pointed out with gnostics. To say that gnostics evolved from catholics is just so wrong it's not even a good joke. ...the author of the chart clearly doesn't have a clue what the different in gnostic and religion is. No clue on the actual understanding of those religions.

A bit premature to be tausing the baby out with the baptism water. The beginnings of Gnosticism have long been a matter of controversy and are still largely a subject of research. The more these origins are studied, the farther they seem to recede in the past. The tree-chart shows that once gnostic teaches branched/transformed into catholicism, what was once a perspective/philosophy became a belief system.

The premise of this thread seems to be based on the reader believing that god or higher things are false, that religion is 100% made up, and that it only changes or evolves based on what the people want to believe.

Maybe there is a god, maybe there isn't... maybe religions are 100% made up, maybe they aren't... what is important to recognize is that belief systems do mutate, adapt, change... evolve... to serve different purposes in our understanding of what life means... and also to help serve those who are in power or seek it.



As for the rest of your post and posts along with iulslion's, you guys have lost me with all your esoteric enigmatic mumbo jumbo.

Originally posted by ahnggk

Originally posted by The All Seeing I

Christians United for Israel is a prime example of a threat we must grow to counteract or we will be the cause of our own end.

By counteracting this movement, especially by brute force, just fulfills the Biblical prophecy.

This is exactly what they wanted to happen for them to be persecuted initially, then they counter attack with an unimaginable force.

I see this as an info-war. Education being key to combat these insane/suicidal ideas. Seems that when we let ignorance flourish it, there will always be those who run with it ... right off a cliff. Easier said then done of course, definitely more complicated then it should due in part to political alliances and the need for religious freedom... but there must be something we can do to deter such abuses of the mind.

reply to post by iulslion


Wisdom is taking the knowledge, experiences and understanding we have an using them in order to make the correct/best choices for ourselves.

The story of babel has nothing at all to do with what you are talking about. The people were united under a single culture, so they did not war with each other. This is a problem because if they had been allowed out in the universe, they still being evil would have warred with all those they came across that were not like them.

Thus, the cultures and languages were confused. At which point, man basically proves that is what they would have done, because that is what they started doing to each other after.

Furthermore, the "wicked" are those who know the truth. They keep it hidden from others in order to keep them ignorant and maintain control over the people.

A must see... absolutely brilliant insights on the evolution of beliefs.

Stanford University Professor Robert Sapolsky Lecture

Originally posted by The All Seeing I
I think it's fair to say that atheism is a belief that there is no god. Agnostic wasn't listed, likely due to the position being neutral. As for the question of where do all of these belief systems come from can be found in the roots of our ancient ancestors' collective experience in relationship with the land and seasons.

My beliefs don't come from any of that stuff. I learned from the father and personal experience. The only thing I use "religion" and things like the bible for is to express the understanding given.

Thus, I am gnostic. And my gnosticism didn't come from any man or religion. I see the understanding I learned expressed in Jesus. It is the father and the understanding I have gained that I see in Jesus for example. I gained the understanding that Jesus had, and I didn't even have a clue about it until many months later.

A bit premature to be tausing the baby out with the baptism water.

The beginnings of Gnosticism have long been a matter of controversy and are still largely a subject of research. The more these origins are studied, the farther they seem to recede in the past. The tree-chart shows that once gnostic teaches branched/transformed into catholicism, what was once a perspective/philosophy became a belief system.

I am gnostic so I know better. I think it's perfectly fine that you don't believe me, or accept what I say. In fact, you shouldn't just accept what people say, as nothing less than a direct experience should do for people.

Jesus was a gnostic. His understanding and knowledge came directly from the source. Or if it's not a real story(doesn't matter to me), then atleast whoever wrote the story had direct understanding and knowledge from the father.

There was no "evolution" of beliefs really. The closest you could get to that is the following:

I was once an atheist. I rejected atheism because I came to realize that I have a very very very limited perception on just the known universe. It would be very foolish of me to believe that anything which hasn't crossed my tiny perspective is by default false. I find atheism to be the most arrogant and ignorant of all belief systems. Because it assumes too much.

So I became agnostic. Without knowledge. This is a completely honest and very admirable position I think. It acknowledges the flaws in atheism and takes the honest opinion of - I just don't know. Since I didn't know, and since I realized I didn't know, I started to seek. And so I found. At which point, once I had the understanding and knowledge, I became gnostic. With knowledge.

The rest is just expressions of the understanding. The world can not give as the father does. This world can not directly give you the understanding. Instead, we can only express it. We express the understanding of math as 1+1=2 etc. But the father gives in understanding. There is a big difference. I surely wish I could just port the understanding from my brain to yours, but it is impossible for me to do that. I can only express the understanding itself. That is what religion is, an expression of the understanding. But it does no good to focus on the expression if you lack the understanding, you will still be blind.

Maybe there is a god, maybe there isn't... maybe religions are 100% made up, maybe they aren't... what is important to recognize is that belief systems do mutate, adapt, change... evolve... to serve different purposes in our understanding of what life means... and also to help serve those who are in power or seek it.

If it has real truth and understanding in the religion, then only the expressions will change from culture to culture. A rose by any other name still smells the same. 1 culture may say 1+1=2, another culture may say 2+2=4. Both are true expressions of the same understanding. The time, places, and cultures may change, but what is being expressed will stay the same. Just different ways of expressing things.

The manipulation and such comes from those who seek power over others.

As for the rest of your post and posts along with iulslion's, you guys have lost me with all your esoteric enigmatic mumbo jumbo.

Do you know what "you" are? How can one seek to know god if they do not know themselves? How can one expect to understand a forest if they can't even realize what a tree is?

Your eyes take in light. It is converted into electrical signals which travel to the back of the brain. It is then converted back into the images we see. To whom are those images presented to? You? If that is you, then how can you be your body?

If you see yourself as being flesh, then you would never understand what I say. Just the way it is. Have to know what is "you" to understand the rest. Doesn't mean you are "screwed", especially considering this world is geared towards keeping people from knowing that, unless they can use it to manipulate and get people to do crazy things. It's just not possible to understand many things without this basic understanding.


[edit on 9-6-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


I see your opinion and position on gnosticism, but what else have you shared thus far that has anything to do with the evolution of belief? You were complaining in my other threads and posts that i had nothing worth investigating... and here i am with a thread that i thought would be more to your level of taste in inquiry, have provided a lot of interesting content to respond to and you seem to be nitpicking all over again.

[edit on 9-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]

reply to post by The All Seeing I


There is a difference between "belief" and understanding. Beliefs generally evolve from those who express understandings. As they themselves lack the understanding and have merely accepted what is said, then it becomes a belief.

I'm not in favor of "beliefs", but I am in favor of understanding. But it seems to me as if you can't see the difference between the beliefs of religion and the understandings of religion.

Do the beliefs of science evolve? Or does the understanding of things evolve? Some people in science actually understand the theory of special relativity and so forth. Others do not, they only have beliefs on what is said. The beliefs of science isn't what evolves it, it's those with understanding gaining better understanding that makes it evolve.

Of course, the crazy part is anyone can pretend to have understanding, and those who rely only on beliefs are subject to whatever they think is an "authority" on the matter as to what is true/false, right/wrong and so forth. Thus, those who accept and do not understand are blind/sheep and are easily deceived.

It's not like I'm in favor of religion. I'm actually not. It's all about accepting and has the problems I mention. But yet, to simple be "against it" as well is just the flip side of the coin, also lacks the understanding.

As long as you are talking about beliefs rather than understanding, you won't be talking on a level that interests me. If you just want to talk about beliefs, point out how ridiculous they are, then I'll leave the thread. It's about like arguing over if the matrix movie is real or not. Easy to point out it's a movie and say it's false and people are crazy for believing in it literally(and if someone did, they would be) and be "right". But I'm not really interested in that discussion. I think it's a pointless debate. Feel the same way about religions. If you would rather talk about the understanding of it and what is being expressed and how it is true to the world around us and our experiences, then I will be interested.

You pointed me to the thread and asked me to respond honestly, so here it is. Sorry if it's not inline with what you had in mind. I do not see the world in basic math, I see it more like algebra. I'm a programmer, so I mostly just look at the equations and understandings of things, not so much the individual variables. This is a discussion about the individual variables. To me, trying to focus on the individual variables is like trying to memorize every little possible math statement. IE: 1+1=2, 1+2=3, 1+3=4. Much better and more efficient to just gain understanding and know A+B=C. Notice I still have to express that understanding with variables(clue about the world around you).

reply to post by badmedia


ah i understand now... i think

So my definition of 'understanding' did not pass you approval...

With our deeper understanding or our place in the universe via the sciences; astrology, psychology/sociology and archeology and the progressive eclectic mix of beliefs and rise of openly agnostic/atheist perspectives replacing old dogmas that were once imposed on the masses a symptom of survival.

I can see your distinction, it makes good sense... though i think most people's level of understanding is at the level of what you refer to as belief... and i think for all practical purposes 'belief' is a degree of 'understanding'. For instance, we see in the old testament a vengeful ruthless god and in the new testament a compassionate and merciful god and now we have versions that are accessible from the comforts of our home. This is an evolution in belief/understand of the who, what and when of god.

Had second thoughts about post...

Umm... carry on.


[edit on 10-6-2009 by Roark]