If we were to approach all of the world's belief systems, origins to present day... from a truly objective perspective we would find a family tree like no other,



...and maybe for once and for all we would stop fighting over our differences in scripts of faith



and instead embrace independent inquiry and critical-thinking.

With our deeper understanding or our place in the universe via the sciences; astrology, psychology/sociology and archeology and the progressive eclectic mix of beliefs and rise of openly agnostic/atheist perspectives replacing old dogmas that were once imposed on the masses a symptom of survival. With the real potential for a biblically self-fulfilling armageddon inching nearer year by year, from the viewpoint of religion being a symptom of the human condition... are these changes in our traditional belief-systems... a sign that we are evolution?

credits: a BIG thank you goes out to prof badmedia and prof diamond for inspiring the creation of this thread

[edit on 8-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]

After reading A History Of God by Karen Armstrong, I am convinced we make things up in order to justify whatever it is we are doing at that point in history.
My opinion is that most religious works were written in harsh political times.

I just love that cartoon, it pretty much tells the whole story doesn't it?

Humans just seem to need to compete, my team is better than yours, my house is better than yours, my kids are better than yours, so for man to have this cross over..."my god is bigger, badder, and is going to kill yours" fits right in. How sad that we cannot see the good in religion and leave the competition out. Though not a christian in the traditional sense I have seen people "find Jesus" and seen their lives transformed. I have also seen the same with many spiritual pursuits whether it be Islam, LDS, Jehovah's Witness, Wicca, Buddhist, or pure love of god with no strings attached. I feel that whatever works for a person is what they should do. I am totally against the whole task of converting all you come into contact with into your personal brand of truth.

John Hagee is by far one of the most dangerous blow hards out there. He is as inflammatory as those he condemns and is as much of a fundamentalist zealot as any Jihad mad person from the Middle East. Scary thing that so many in government hold to his way of thinking.

Originally posted by The All Seeing I

Christians United for Israel is a prime example of a threat we must grow to counteract or we will be the cause of our own end.

By counteracting this movement, especially by brute force, just fulfills the Biblical prophecy.

This is exactly what they wanted to happen for them to be persecuted initially, then they counter attack with an unimaginable force.

If it's an evolution of beliefs, where do they all come from? There is a line there that they all originate from, but from where is that line supposed to be? Just a general belief in god/something higher?

Also, why are gnostic under Catholicism? That is most certainly untrue as the RCC actively persecuted gnostic. Also, gnostic just means "with knowledge", there are many many forms of it.

Jesus was obviously one with knowledge. Thus he was a gnostic. Which also brings us back to the original paragraph there. From what are all these things connected by? Either people made it up, or a few people were gnostic and had knowledge.

What the chart ignores is that from that knowledge, people who lack the same understanding pick it up, and try to apply things they don't understand. Along comes people looking for power, and they turn it into other things. And of course, that is also where some of them may have come from, those gaining power over others.

Looks like someone just listed a bunch of religions, grouped them up by similarities and drew a bunch of lines that are too confusing to take in at once. There are obvious mistakes in it, just as I pointed out with gnostics. To say that gnostics evolved from catholics is just so wrong it's not even a good joke.

The premise of this thread seems to be based on the reader believing that god or higher things are false, that religion is 100% made up, and that it only changes or evolves based on what the people want to believe.

Do you know the different between accepting things and having real understanding? I post this all the time, but here goes again. I'll use math as an example, as we all understanding math, thus we can easily tell the difference.

The man who accepts 1+1=2 does not have understanding. He doesn't know how to add. He only knows 1+1=2 because someone told him that. He can repeat it perfectly, but he can't apply it in the world around him without understanding. As well, because he lacks understanding on how to add, he doesn't realize 1+2=3, or any of the infinite true expressions of math. Unless of course someone tells him. The person who does understand has no problem at all doing this. The person who understands see's "A+B=C". They see the equation itself.

The same thing applies in religion. The majority of people in religions just accept what people tell them, they do not understand. And that is what "they" want. Because as they do not understand, they are unable to apply the understanding and principles to their daily lives. No different than the man who accepted 1+1=2 is not able to apply that to their daily lives. As well, they reject anything that is not exactly what that religion says, IE: other religions, because it's not the same word. No different than 1 person who accepted 1+1=2 might fight and argue with another person who accepted 1+2=3. Both of them may be saying something that is true, but both are truly ignorant and without understanding.

Because they do not understand, they can be manipulated into believing or doing just about anything, so long as it sounds good, or comes from an authority they think they relate too. And when you get to what religions do and believe, that is normally who you will be dealing with. It's what the chart is about, as the author of the chart clearly doesn't have a clue what the different in gnostic and religion is. No clue on the actual understanding of those religions.

It's about like arguing over if the neo, the machines and the matrix is literally real. It doesn't matter which side of the argument you are on there, you missed the real truth of the movie.

"Any fool can know. The point is to understand." — Albert Einstein

Check out this bible verse, says the same thing. Notice the use of those who accept and then lack understanding.

1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

Knowledge is the curse of man.
There is only one truth.
It is the way.

All creatures know the way.
Only man, chooses knowledge.

As it says in the Bible.
Because we have eaten from the tree of Knowledge,
We are fallen.

Jesus did not need human knowledge, or understanding.
He says so himself.
He calls the wise men, and the educated - fools.

The more we learn, the more we muddy the water of our mind.
You cannot be saved by what you know, less then you can be saved by your actions.

You can act kindly toward another, with evil intention.
Just as you can do a wrong, with good intentions.

Why do you seek knowledge?
So that you can have power?
This is the road to destruction.
Death.

"If you eat from the tree, ye shall surely die"

Note: I am not contending with other posters, and I am not preaching any religion. I am merely giving my opinion.

You can never be as innocent as a child, because of what you know.
It is how you use your knowledge, and with what intention that matters.

Yes, all have eaten from the tree, and so we all are fallen.
Individually, and as a species.
It is because of our thoughts, that we are fallen.
It is our thoughts that lead to our actions.

Therefore guard your mind with vigilance.
Because once you know, it cannot be undone.
Knowledge comes with great responsability.

I do not want to know everything.
Please do not confuse this with ignorance.
Knowledge is useful. It is a tool.
But what know you, which has not already been known?

We can try to categorize, name and understand the world until the end of days. But we will never find the truth in this way.
We will find lies upon lies.

Knowledge is a means to an end.
It is not the end in itself.
Wisdom comes from discernment, rejection of much knowledge, if not all.

The story of Babel comes to mind.
Because they all spoke the same language, knowledge was abundant.
And the people where good, for some time.

But as their knowledge grew, so did their power.
As their power grew, so they believed that the power was theirs.
That they where gods.

With their knowledge and power, they build great things.
They attempted to immortalize themselves, as gods.

This is what lead to their destruction. And it is the same today.

As you know the Illuminatti claim to have secret knowledge.
Yet they dedicate themselves to Satan, why do u think this is?

The truth does not hide in the shadows, it is there for everyone to see. Jesus didn't study with the educated, he did not learn what he knew at school or from books.
His wisdom came from observation, meditation, and dedication to the way. As with all great thinkers, i believe you will find the same.

We as a race, have forgotten what matters, and we fill our minds with the knowledge of the world, which we use to make life easier for ourselves. Just look at what this has done to the uneducated world. Death and poverty rain, even though we have all the "technology" to solve it.

It is this great knowledge we have to thank for almost every problem we face today.

Originally posted by ahnggk

Originally posted by The All Seeing I

Christians United for Israel is a prime example of a threat we must grow to counteract or we will be the cause of our own end.

By counteracting this movement, especially by brute force, just fulfills the Biblical prophecy.

This is exactly what they wanted to happen for them to be persecuted initially, then they counter attack with an unimaginable force.

I see this as an info-war. Education being key to combat these insane/suicidal ideas. Seems that when we let ignorance flourish it, there will always be those who run with it ... right off a cliff. Easier said then done of course, definitely more complicated then it should due in part to political alliances and the need for religious freedom... but there must be something we can do to deter such abuses of the mind.

Originally posted by The All Seeing I
I think it's fair to say that atheism is a belief that there is no god. Agnostic wasn't listed, likely due to the position being neutral. As for the question of where do all of these belief systems come from can be found in the roots of our ancient ancestors' collective experience in relationship with the land and seasons.

My beliefs don't come from any of that stuff. I learned from the father and personal experience. The only thing I use "religion" and things like the bible for is to express the understanding given.

Thus, I am gnostic. And my gnosticism didn't come from any man or religion. I see the understanding I learned expressed in Jesus. It is the father and the understanding I have gained that I see in Jesus for example. I gained the understanding that Jesus had, and I didn't even have a clue about it until many months later.

A bit premature to be tausing the baby out with the baptism water. The beginnings of Gnosticism have long been a matter of controversy and are still largely a subject of research. The more these origins are studied, the farther they seem to recede in the past. The tree-chart shows that once gnostic teaches branched/transformed into catholicism, what was once a perspective/philosophy became a belief system.

I am gnostic so I know better. I think it's perfectly fine that you don't believe me, or accept what I say. In fact, you shouldn't just accept what people say, as nothing less than a direct experience should do for people.

Jesus was a gnostic. His understanding and knowledge came directly from the source. Or if it's not a real story(doesn't matter to me), then atleast whoever wrote the story had direct understanding and knowledge from the father.

There was no "evolution" of beliefs really. The closest you could get to that is the following:

I was once an atheist. I rejected atheism because I came to realize that I have a very very very limited perception on just the known universe. It would be very foolish of me to believe that anything which hasn't crossed my tiny perspective is by default false. I find atheism to be the most arrogant and ignorant of all belief systems. Because it assumes too much.

So I became agnostic. Without knowledge. This is a completely honest and very admirable position I think. It acknowledges the flaws in atheism and takes the honest opinion of - I just don't know. Since I didn't know, and since I realized I didn't know, I started to seek. And so I found. At which point, once I had the understanding and knowledge, I became gnostic. With knowledge.

The rest is just expressions of the understanding. The world can not give as the father does. This world can not directly give you the understanding. Instead, we can only express it. We express the understanding of math as 1+1=2 etc. But the father gives in understanding. There is a big difference. I surely wish I could just port the understanding from my brain to yours, but it is impossible for me to do that. I can only express the understanding itself. That is what religion is, an expression of the understanding. But it does no good to focus on the expression if you lack the understanding, you will still be blind.

Maybe there is a god, maybe there isn't... maybe religions are 100% made up, maybe they aren't... what is important to recognize is that belief systems do mutate, adapt, change... evolve... to serve different purposes in our understanding of what life means... and also to help serve those who are in power or seek it.

If it has real truth and understanding in the religion, then only the expressions will change from culture to culture. A rose by any other name still smells the same. 1 culture may say 1+1=2, another culture may say 2+2=4. Both are true expressions of the same understanding. The time, places, and cultures may change, but what is being expressed will stay the same. Just different ways of expressing things.

The manipulation and such comes from those who seek power over others.

As for the rest of your post and posts along with iulslion's, you guys have lost me with all your esoteric enigmatic mumbo jumbo.

Do you know what "you" are? How can one seek to know god if they do not know themselves? How can one expect to understand a forest if they can't even realize what a tree is?

Your eyes take in light. It is converted into electrical signals which travel to the back of the brain. It is then converted back into the images we see. To whom are those images presented to? You? If that is you, then how can you be your body?

If you see yourself as being flesh, then you would never understand what I say. Just the way it is. Have to know what is "you" to understand the rest. Doesn't mean you are "screwed", especially considering this world is geared towards keeping people from knowing that, unless they can use it to manipulate and get people to do crazy things. It's just not possible to understand many things without this basic understanding.


[edit on 9-6-2009 by badmedia]

Had second thoughts about post...

Umm... carry on.


[edit on 10-6-2009 by Roark]