The Evolution of Belief

Originally posted by The All Seeing I
reply to post by badmedia

 

ah i understand now... i think

So my definition of 'understanding' did not pass you approval...

With our deeper understanding or our place in the universe via the sciences; astrology, psychology/sociology and archeology and the progressive eclectic mix of beliefs and rise of openly agnostic/atheist perspectives replacing old dogmas that were once imposed on the masses a symptom of survival.

I can see your distinction, it makes good sense... though i think most people's level of understanding is at the level of what you refer to as belief... and i think for all practical purposes 'belief' is a degree of 'understanding'. For instance, we see in the old testament a vengeful ruthless god and in the new testament a compassionate and merciful god and now we have versions that are accessible from the comforts of our home. This is an evolution in belief/understand of the who, what and when of god.

I think you are catching on. Yes, what many people call understanding is just a belief. And that is a good part of the problem I face. The base of what people "understand" is based on things they have accepted. So the foundation of that understanding is false, and so they still lack real understanding.

And it's really hard to know if someone understands or not. I like to use math as an example, as we all have understanding of it, so we can see the difference. But anyone can run around saying 1+1=2!! How do I know if they actually understand math based on that? What they say in words is true. And if you with understanding say 1+1=2, they will cheer. But as soon as you start trying to show the understanding behind the 1+1=2 rather than the literal expression, they think you are nuts.

Of course, in the past if you did anything other than repeat 1+1=2, you were killed as a heretic and so forth. All people see is that the people who run around screaming 1+1=2 is truth are brutal and kill anyone who disagrees. Despite the fact that what they say is truth says not to do that. And so they reject it. But they don't really reject or accept the understanding, it is kept blind to them on either side of the coin. Of course, as a result what people end up arguing over is the literal, and what people do in the name of the literal, or other things, rather than the understanding. And this is wanted.

The understanding is always ignored in these types of debates. Just like the previous thread about religious people being black and white. We aren't debating what the understanding of the texts give, it's just about what people do in the name of things, and so forth.

So if you want to kick it up a level, we should focus on the understandings. The understandings themselves we can pretty much prove right or wrong, or agree or disagree with and it's not a matter of blind faith, or what people do in the name of things. It's stuff that we can use in our daily lives.

Why debate if neo and the matrix is real or not when you can debate the understandings, philosophies and questions it purposes? Much more productive.

When you look at the actions of people and such, then you can see what they are about. If you looked at what GWB did in the name of "freedom", vs those who just accepted that he was doing it for "freedom" - that is the difference between understanding and accepting and why it is important.

Most people already do this by default in many places, but not in others. When you become aware of it, then you start applying it everywhere and it's much more useful. Kind of like we are all "aware", but then being aware of what it means to be aware is a whole other thing.


[edit on 10-6-2009 by badmedia]

So here is a start for understanding.

What is it that makes up "you"? What does it mean to be aware of things, to be an observer? What are "you"?

If we are our bodies and the physical, then why do we address and treat them as possessions? "your arm", "your head". Even when you start to get a bit deeper, it's still "your soul", "your consciousness" and so forth. Why are all these things possessions? How can we be something and possess it at the same time?

If our eyes collect light and send them to the back of the brain where they are converted back into the images we see, then what is it that observes? What allows something to "see" anything? If we make AI, robots and such, they can do many complicated things faster and better than humans, but yet they do not observe, they do not know what it means to "be", they are simply just a bunch of patterns going around, just a bit more complicated. Why can't logic come up with a way to make something "observe and be"? What is it that seperates and makes "you" different from the universe?

If the universe is all about action and reaction, then how does it produce something that is not based on action and reaction? And, since the universe is action and reaction, and we have choice, then what reactions can we expect from our actions?

These are the kind of questions that will bring about real understanding. And people have had these kinds of questions for quite awhile.

Those who asked seek out answers, and they come across them. Once they get that understanding, they have to figure out a way to express it. Thus, they are forced and reduced to taking the understanding of math(example again) to a literal 1+1=2, and hoping people can pick up on it. When they don't, but accept it is true with blind faith, then it becomes a belief rather than an understanding.

So maybe you can see why I opened up asking where the line they all originate comes from and why it is relevant to the topic concerning the gnostics and such.

The "conspiracy" of it all has IMO been making people accept the literal as fact, and kept the understanding and spirituality of it all hidden from people. Keeping them blind to it all. My theory on this is what has happened is someone started to express these things, and "they" couldn't really stop it from spreading, so they take it up and embrace it, but force a specific way of acceptance on it. It seems to be the status quo for corruption, infiltrate into something, then manipulate it to suit their purpose. Happens in pretty much anything that brings power with it. Religion, politics, corporations etc.

Originally posted by badmedia
So if you want to kick it up a level, we should focus on the understandings. The understandings themselves we can pretty much prove right or wrong, or agree or disagree with and it's not a matter of blind faith, or what people do in the name of things. It's stuff that we can use in our daily lives.

Yes agreed, this is where we have collectively been heading... a deeper understanding based on the application of such teaching to our lives. Instead of just going along with the crowd, more and more people are questioning what they are being feed and as a result are seeking more fulfilling answers to their most pressing issues. Some belief systems have adapted to this need in an attempt to accommodate these new desires. The NIV and the mega churches with their rock bands come to mind as an example... more superficial changes in packaging then substance in understanding but still an evolution in the craft of proselytizing... the make over of bible study groups are another sign that religious organizations are making an asserted effort in making their brand of belief/understanding more accessible/applicable to people's lives. We still have a long way to go, but these are baby steps in the right direction.

The "conspiracy" of it all has IMO been making people accept the literal as fact, and kept the understanding and spirituality of it all hidden from people. Keeping them blind to it all. My theory on this is what has happened is someone started to express these things, and "they" couldn't really stop it from spreading, so they take it up and embrace it, but force a specific way of acceptance on it. It seems to be the status quo for corruption, infiltrate into something, then manipulate it to suit their purpose. Happens in pretty much anything that brings power with it. Religion, politics, corporations etc.

You can find this lack of understanding across the board. Just look at the breathe of subject matter that ATS covers, that should be a part of every person's education. Just look at how our society champions a great memory with great intelligence, yet they have very little in common by association. Where are the creative problem solving and critical thinking skills? Rote memorization skills are a parallel to what you have referred to in the acquiring and practice of 'belief' versus the act of 'understanding' represents an independent free open mind.

Originally posted by The All Seeing I
Yes agreed, this is where we have collectively been heading... a deeper understanding based on the application of such teaching to our lives. Instead of just going along with the crowd, more and more people are questioning what they are being feed and as a result are seeking more fulfilling answers to their most pressing issues. Some belief systems have adapted to this need in an attempt to accommodate these new desires. The NIV and the mega churches with their rock bands come to mind as an example... more superficial changes in packaging then substance in understanding but still an evolution in the craft of proselytizing... the make over of bible study groups are another sign that religious organizations are making an asserted effort in making their brand of belief/understanding more accessible/applicable to people's lives. We still have a long way to go, but these are baby steps in the right direction.

All that you mention has been going on for thousands of years. Before the time of Jesus, and still then after as well. It doesn't change, only the names of things change. It doesn't matter if you call the build a church or a synagogue, it has the same function. And when you look at the functions of things around you instead of the people, then things become more clear.

Like the Obama thing. People focused on the person. Look at the GOP right after, coincidence a black man is the one for the GOP leadership? No. Because it's all about the "image" and keeping people focused on the image. I could care less if he was black or white, but to me it's obvious why they do these things.

Now, believe it or not but Jesus talks about exactly these same things, which is what kills me about religion and Christians especially. I don't know if the other cultures and religions say the same thing, they have the same basic understandings most of the time from what I can tell. But I know Jesus directly tells people about this stuff, and still they go on. They accept Paul over Jesus because they don't understand.

We can't look at the actions of the people as being a reflection of what their texts and what that religion is supposed to be. If I couldn't separate Christians from Jesus, I wouldn't be able to say many kind words about Jesus. But I refuse to let them define things for me. Instead, I will continue to look at their actions rather than what they claim to be.

Even the church is against what Jesus talks about. Most of what is done in religion has become a physical replacement for spiritual understanding. A church for example is within a person and is built of wisdom and understanding. But then they replace that with a physical church. Now, if I were to tell someone having a problem "go to your church and you find the answer", I would be saying - go to your true understandings and wisdom and the answer will come to you. However, with the physical replacement it means go down to that building and listen to that man tell you what to accept. 2 very separate meanings from the same sentences. This makes it difficult to talk about an explain.

Blind faith is ignorant. That is not the kind of "faith" being talked about. Blind faith = belief. Blind in the bible is just a nice way of saying ignorant many times. But that is what people attack in religion and point out. The blind faith. They are unable to separate what Christians do from the understanding of Jesus. And thus the choice is based not on understanding, but on the people. But isn't it just as much blind faith to reject it outright without actually understanding ourselves?

You can find this lack of understanding across the board. Just look at the breathe of subject matter that ATS covers, that should be a part of every person's education. Just look at how our society champions a great memory with great intelligence, yet they have very little in common by association. Where are the creative problem solving and critical thinking skills? Rote memorization skills are a parallel to what you have referred to in the acquiring and practice of 'belief' versus the act of 'understanding' represents an independent free open mind.

Yes, but it seems to me that sooner or later things just get to be so "in your face" that you can't ignore it. That is my experience anyway. As much as I dislike GWB, as much as I dislike the people who operate solely on belief, and as much as I dislike the way the world goes round - I have to thank it. I'd have to look at GWB and say - Thank you so very very much.

Because it taught me, it woke me up, it made me realize. I was all for war in Afghanistan. I watched the news night after night just waiting for the entertainment. Couldn't have started soon enough for me. And then Iraq came up. And I didn't buy it. I knew better than the things they said. And also when they started with the freedom = doing what you are told stuff. I knew something was screwed up. And so it made me question alot of things. It got to be so in my face that I couldn't ignore it.

I think other people will get it, and many already have started. Even in the short time I've seen the amount of change in people towards looking at understanding rather than image has increased a lot. At first I think most go just against the things completely, I surely did, but then eventually one realizes if they are just on the other side of the coin and no different(actions determine difference, not names/images).

I think the earth is just a school. Some may say prison, either way you are here to you learn these lessons. And such is the lesson itself. Once understanding is gained, people don't fall for the same things again - lesson learned.

Btw, here is a thread someone started yesterday that deals with this topic. It explains what I've typed so much about pretty much in a minute and a half video. Might have seen it already, but just in case.

How we are Conditioned to act without Reason *Video*



[edit on 11-6-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


That is some crazy monkey business
... but a good illustration of how the status quo is maintained via group think.

I can see how the belief systems control the parameters in which one is allowed to think. With the break down of these boundaries people are freed up to explore more then one approach... from which true understand can take place, I find this is the case with most new agers. The eclectic mix in cherry picking from various belief systems to organically serve the need of the believer is at the frontier of this evolutionary process. By shedding the dogma and embracing all that speaks to an individual from all sources available is our future. Unfortunately this is a very slow process and i'm afraid time is running out.

In speaking more to your sensibilities ... what would you say about the Evolution of Understanding in our purpose and meaning of life? ...could it be that we are devolving, stuck stagnant in a catatonic state of arrested development or are we gaining ground in our quest for the truth?

...and how, if at all are the belief-systems aiding or degrading in this process?

Now to set the record straight on my intentions for this thread in light of this important distinction has been made. For example, in asking people. "What do you follow? Christianity/Islam or the teachings of Christ/Allah? This is in it self an evolutionary step in awareness/understanding... as far as there being structure/guidelines applied to this train of thinking, i see belief-systems that foster an open mind and independent critical thinking are leading the way out of our darkness/blind-spots.

reply to post by The All Seeing I


It is something people have to do for themselves. There is no correct belief system.

Straight up, everything Jesus says is true. It's right there in the open for all to see. But nobody recognizes it. Jesus wasn't trying to give a belief system, he was trying to give people understanding. You don't need to believe 1+1=2 if you understand math, then you know and understand it for yourself.

Nothing is hidden. That was something that absolutely blew my mind. Nothing is hidden, it's all out in the open. But nobody see's or notices it. It is absolutely brilliant how it is. It is there for anyone who seeks, anyone who looks for it. But people must actually seek for themselves. I can't give it to you, if I could I would have already. No other man can give it to us either.

I use to be like everyone else. Just accepted what I was told and made my choices based on what I had accepted. My entire perspective on the world changed almost over night. I could suddenly "see the truth". I can today "see through" people, but yet my eyes show me the exact same things they did before that day. What changed was my understanding and what I looked at and paid attention too.

My experience is explained in the bible. It is what Jesus refers to as being "born again", or "born of the spirit". Of course, the majority of people really don't know what that means or have understanding of it.

John 3

2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

New agers do not get this. They believe creation and all things to be all one and "god". Not the case. There is the thinker(spirit/father/god) and there is the thought(creation/universe).

Everyone must go through the experience of being born again and born of spirit. What does that mean exactly though? Well, that process is described in John 14.

John 14

20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

That is what I knew for a fact after being born again. It was the very first words out of my mouth. Although I didn't know the bible at all, so I expressed it as "I am god, and I am arguing with myself(you)". Meaning, I recognized the father that is within me and others for the first time. That verse I read later and is what got me to look at the bible. I was in shock that Jesus said that, and yet I never knew it.

The event is followed by teachings and understandings are given. And this is nothing something that is reserved for Christians or any specific belief system. It is open to all those who seek. I was so far away from religion when it happened, I hated religion and thought it was stupid. Still do in many ways.

John 14
24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So what exactly is being said here?

People must seek and realize who they are. There is a difference between consciousness and soul, and the creation/universe. People in this day and age have no clue about this. They see themselves as being flesh and not spirit. They think consciousness/soul is a part of creation. But it's not.

Creation/universe works off logic. It is based on action and reaction. Science is great for this side of things, because it is repeatable in a lab and so forth. It has no understanding, it has no free will and it has no choice. It is unable to reason

Consciousness/soul is the part within us that allows us to observe, to reason, to understand and so forth. Thus why it is said that without the father there is no understanding and such. Because without that, we would be just like robots. That consciousness and what is actually "you" is the father within you.

This is the basis for all my understanding. It was this 1 and simple understanding that changed my life and my perspective. Death? Not real. And it is near impossible to understand what is being said without this. Thus, we must all be "born again" if we hope to see the truth. When you realize this, and you realize that you are your soul and not the physical then you will understand that you are born of the father/god. AKA, you are born again even at an early age.

The "belief system" of christianity confuses the crap outta that. Never once was it explained to me in such a way. Born again to them just means "being devout". Not even close. But they do not understand and they have just accepted what sounds good etc.

Christianity doesn't provide that understanding. And if you were to just accept this as truth because I say it, then it provides you no understanding either. If you accept it, then it just becomes a belief, and a belief system.

Thus in my experience is was made known to me - do not make yourself into an authority. I was shown that it doesn't do any good if people just accept what is said. Jesus also says do not make yourself into authority figures, which completely invalidates the church and the belief system it carries. Paul comes in after and changes all that though.

Now then, it is said that - because you are not of this world you are hated. What does that mean? What does it really mean to sell your soul?

As I mentioned earlier, this world works on action and reaction. Your soul provides free will/choice and makes you not work on action and reaction. Take a look at a rocket. We introduce the correct actions, and the rocket reacts the way we want. This gives us control over the rockets. You are hated because you are not easily controlled in this manner, and "they" and the entire game on this planet is to turn you into a being that is just like that rocket. To sell your free will and be under their control. Someone who sells their soul is just a puppet.

We can see evidence of this in society. Certain actions are introduced into society, aka 9/11 for example. In order to get the reactions wanted from the people. Look at how people jumped on the war bandwagon(myself included at that time). Thus, completely bypassing the soul/free will/choice.

No belief system will do. People must understand these things. The father never tells people to accept anything, acceptance is how the world gives. The father gives in understanding. He does not take your will, you can not give your will to the father. Instead, he will give you understanding and wisdom so that you can follow and do his will on your own.

I am a big fan of Jesus, no doubt. But yet that is not the important thing here. The understanding and what he says is. I was shown not to focus on the idol/messengers, but the messages and understandings they bring instead. I am certainly not saying go worship Jesus, I am certainly not saying go to church. Christianity is a belief system, it is the anti-Christ religion and it rejects the understanding. Imagine what Christians would do to Jesus these days. Pretty much sums it up IMO.

Time is honestly irrelevant. For example, I do not have to be here. Things are just going to keep getting more in your face until you understand. Just like if you put your finger on stove eye, it's going to burn you more and more until you correct the situation. You are not forgotten or uncared for, nobody is. The "end times" are simply a time of revealing. Apocalypse and revelation both literally translate to "revealing". As it gets more in peoples face, they will start to question. And when they question, they will start to "wake up".

It's just a school/prision/ride however you want to see it. Death is not real, don't fear such things. Find yourself and you will find the father, find the father and you will be born again. Once born again, you won't need me or any other man to tell you the truth(aka belief system), you will know and understand for yourself. No belief system will give that.

The best I or anyone else can really do is point out things that makes one question things. To try and uphold an honest and higher level of thinking. Pointing out actions over "who", pointing out understanding over acceptance and so on.

One day we will wake up and everyone will simply understand. It's not really up to "men" or "the powers that be". Can't stop things that come from within a person, they can only control what they see "out there". We are just people who look early.





[edit on 12-6-2009 by badmedia]

For me to fully understand what you are saying do i need to be born again?

So would you say that our evolution in understanding leads to being 'born again'?

... or do you not see evolution fitting into this processes at all?

Originally posted by The All Seeing I
For me to fully understand what you are saying do i need to be born again?

So would you say that our evolution in understanding leads to being 'born again'?

... or do you not see evolution fitting into this processes at all?

"born again" is a label for something. I am certainly not talking about going to church, becoming a christian or anything like that. It is an experience. It can be likened to being born again because what you see yourself as changes. Before being born again, we see ourselves as being flesh. As in - I am my body, I am flesh, I am born of my parents and without my flesh I will die. When you are born again, then you no longer see yourself as these things. You will see yourself as consciousness/soul and that comes from the father/god. This changes your entire perspective on the world. But it's not something I can just tell you, when you experience it, then you will know it for sure. Shouldn't settle for less than that. My experience was my experience, no good for you.

It is an evolution of sorts. However, I think it is more of a personal evolution than a society and evolution of beliefs. The truth and real understanding doesn't change, so it doesn't evolve - but the understanding of people evolves over a life time, should they seek etc.

And how people express that understanding, it also evolves and changes with the times, cultures and so forth. But it only does when those gain understanding express it again. Like in the monkey film, eventually the monkeys will become less caring about it. And they will be silent as one goes up the stairs. Then new understanding comes about etc. But as long as they refuse to allow people up those stairs, they will deny others of that understanding, and we go right back to beliefs.

We might say 1+1=2 and then 2+1=3 is an evolution/change of sorts. Can't deny that. But of course the actual understanding behind them both never changes and was always the same.

But hopefully we do evolve towards the truth over time as a whole. We don't sacrifice things anymore etc. And the universe automatically adjusts to give us what we need in order to get closer to that truth. Certainly is true on a personal level.

At the start of every program there is the "word". That word is the code and logic the program operates on. But just like a video game, it doesn't come alive until the consciousness is there to observe it. Make a program that is all of creation, and it doesn't come alive until you put your consciousness into it. Until then, it's just a bunch of patterns going on. Or as the bible says - the spirit of god fills creation.

Here are 2 posts I made on the subject of the universe and how it works.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by The All Seeing I


Huge problems with this "tree" although I like the idea...

Where is Christianity? I mean pre-roman accepted Christianity? It's an off shoot of Judaism... as is Islam...


Also, you have Atheism as the beginning? Not at all.. Atheism didn't exist until way after tribal times...

Man has believed in God as long as they have believed in Self....

Atheism is a product of the modern age.

How about monotheism? If Atheism is listed, should Monotheism? I mean it's in the same abstract strata as Atheism...

Good idea.... needs a lot more work...

reply to post by badmedia


Lots of people don't like the term "Born Again" because to them it is associated with a specific form of belief...

But what you say is true...

Happiness, comes from realizing that all that really exists , does so within the subjective experience of consciousness.

When you identify yourself with your consciousness as opposed to your flesh, it's amazing how your life changes... regardless of what your belief system is or even if you have a belief system.

The mere fact of approaching life like this creates an entire new heaven and earth...

:-)

I know you caught that badmedia... ;-)

reply to post by HunkaHunka


Yep, and I am certainly not talking about it in the same way as those people who say they are "Born Again Christians" either. Makes it extremely difficult to talk about these things.

What you mention is the important stuff and the main thing that matters. Knowing and understanding that. It is the base of my understanding, and the key understanding that changed my entire perspective. A critical turning point of sorts. Also seems to be impossible for those who do not understand that to understand the other things I say.

I was the same way as All Seeing I at one time. And on the day when I knew and understood it, my life changed completely.

Always a pleasure to see someone who understands, thanks.

One of the inherent dangers in the trio of Abraham’s religious sects is that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all are centered on a ‘closed’ book with a non-communicative deity.

The other pagan religions these sects supplanted often had evolutionary elements involved where a priestly class was empowered to constantly interpret ‘signs and portents’ as to what the deity wanted, or if the deity was pleased, or if the deity was angry and then could extol the laity to act accordingly.

In Judaism, Christianity and Islam you really don’t have that because the ‘books’ are ‘closed’ and considered more or less written in ‘stone’ even though said stones are not producible. It’s considered blasphemous to step outside of the ‘closed’ book, or to radically reinterpret part of one of the books, or to write a new beginning or end to the book or a new chapter to the book.

So what you then do have is ‘closed’ thinking, and ‘closed’ minds by the adherents to the books, where because the very nature of the book is ‘closed’ it instills a ‘circular’ logic where when challenged or stymied by poignant or pressing questions that the book does not consider they have to rely on some ‘previous’ passage or ‘part’ of the book to simply ‘justify’ dismissing this new challenge or question out of hand as being irrelevant since the ‘book’ itself does not deal with it at all or in satisfactory detail.

While humankind ‘evolves’ through an evolutionary process that seems to sacrilegious to adherents of the books, the books themselves do not evolve along with humankind, and neither does the intellectual or emotional capacity of the books adherents as the remain trapped in that closed circle always looking for validation and intellectual, emotional and spiritual cues and clues from religions because of the non-participatory nature of the deity they are centered on can not evolve in the vacuum that the books themselves have created unto themselves in absence of that deity.

This is what’s at the heart of that emotional, intellectual and spiritual retardation in the Sects of Abraham and what makes them such ideal political tools for governing the masses as they leave the masses little room to maneuver and little recourse or appeal since the deity is not an interactive one, but simply the governments and religious institutions that define what being ‘devoted’ properly entails.

It’s a perfect trap with no door, that people lock themselves into of their own volition which is the most powerful form of submission and slavery a Master could ask or demand of his slaves.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Thank you PPT, you saved me from jumping off a virtual cliff here... or i should say saved the thread along with me

Beautifully said and dead on target. Kudos dear sir... you have come to my rescue once again.

This has truly been a mystery to me and thanks to your post i can see now where i was once blind. The key ingredient to the success of these three sand religions i think lays in the closed-circuit you give light to. This is in part why it think i find the vampire analogy such a useful tool in illustrating what takes place 'once bitten' ie 'born again'. These castles of belief/understanding seem impervious to any external influences... though they are in a position to influence/grow outside their walls. Another parallel that comes to mind, is how computer viruses function. They have a circular chain of commands that enable the code to grow/spread but in terms of evolve they are maladaptive in their service to a productive means.

[edit on 14-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]

Originally posted by The All Seeing I
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Thank you PPT, you saved me from jumping off a virtual cliff here... or i should say saved the thread along with me

Beautifully said and dead on target. Kudos dear sir... you have come to my rescue once again.

This has truly been a mystery to me and thanks to your post i can see now where i was once blind. The key ingredient to the success of these three sand religions i think lays in the closed-circuit you give light to. This is in part why it think i find the vampire analogy such a useful tool in illustrating what takes place 'once bitten' ie 'born again'. These castles of belief/understanding seem impervious to any external influences... though they are in a position to influence/grow outside their walls. Another parallel that comes to mind, is how computer viruses function. They have a circular chain of commands that enable the code to grow/spread but in terms of evolve they are maladaptive in their service to a productive means.

[edit on 14-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]

A Master will tell you my friend that you cannot control people but you can control the circumstances around people thus penning them in and corralling them in the direction(s) you would like them to head.

What the trio of Sects that comprise Islam, Christianity and Judaism represent is closed universes unto themselves. They expand but they do not progress or evolve and in that manner they are a form of parasitical virus similar to the fictional Borg on the Science Fiction Series Star Trek. They simply assimilate and break down any contrary forms of thinking, thought, direction, morality, or spirituality to fit a uniform mold that adherents ‘must’ conform too or risk the carrots of validation, absolution and then by caveat suffer the stick of eternal damnation and punishment.

Hey where do I sign up for that? You got to got to be kidding me!

Amazingly the priestly and hierarchy of the patriarchal class do not even subscribe to these doctrines themselves but practice a form of archaic mysticism based on worship of the sun and the Zodiac and the progression of the equinoxes and mask this to the unknowing but abetting eyes of the laity through symbols and pageants that merely tap into the collective energies of the assembled congregations by the priestly class to further enable their interactions with the occult.

The laity taught to conform or risk an eternity of horrific punishment without any possibility of reprieve are taught to comply and submit to every exertion tasked upon them in this enslaving power hierarchy that makes deliverance of the laity in mass to the patrician political class an artistic endeavor that so subtly yet powerfully corrals the masses an enriching endeavor as the patrician as well as plebian laity bestow riches and wealth and allegiances to the priests.

In the neoconservative far right republican voting block you see this manifest particularly if one would like to see a powerful example of this at play in the modern United States of America.

Notable Evangelical Zionists Priests have huge cult followings of parishioners with some having individual followings or head organizations with 10 thousand, 20 thousand, 100 thousand in some cases millions who constitute the laity of the ceremonial pageantry that transfixes and transforms the congregation to a unified mass without deviation, politically, spiritually, morally and intellectually.

The incredible advantage to having ‘closed’ books that can not be tampered with by adding or subtracting to them as far as the core gospel and belief system is that it fosters that political based system of charismatic Priests interpreting the texts with an eye towards appealing to a certain predisposed type of thinking amongst the congregants and then expounding and expanding upon it in such a way that politically it becomes attractive to those that can only go to…one side or the other in the corral…forward or back in the corral…and have a ‘comfort’ spot they favor in the corral.

The remain within the overall ‘closed’ parameters but are now ‘ripe’ for mental conditioning, indoctrinations and other forms of mind and thought control that can then give that subset of congregants and their priests and affiliated politicians and merchants incredible power and opportunity to expand…but not to evolve.


[edit on 14/6/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
One of the inherent dangers in the trio of Abraham’s religious sects is that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all are centered on a ‘closed’ book with a non-communicative deity.

The other pagan religions these sects supplanted often had evolutionary elements involved where a priestly class was empowered to constantly interpret ‘signs and portents’ as to what the deity wanted, or if the deity was pleased, or if the deity was angry and then could extol the laity to act accordingly.

In Judaism, Christianity and Islam you really don’t have that because the ‘books’ are ‘closed’ and considered more or less written in ‘stone’ even though said stones are not producible.

That's not entirely true...

In Judaism it's traditional to have arguments with God... plus they have a written tradition plus an oral tradition.

And during the biblical times the prophets did just what you are talking about... act as intercessors with God to determine his desires...

I understand and appreciate your intent, but your inaccuracies muddy the waters way too much...

Originally posted by HunkaHunka

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
One of the inherent dangers in the trio of Abraham’s religious sects is that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all are centered on a ‘closed’ book with a non-communicative deity.

The other pagan religions these sects supplanted often had evolutionary elements involved where a priestly class was empowered to constantly interpret ‘signs and portents’ as to what the deity wanted, or if the deity was pleased, or if the deity was angry and then could extol the laity to act accordingly.

In Judaism, Christianity and Islam you really don’t have that because the ‘books’ are ‘closed’ and considered more or less written in ‘stone’ even though said stones are not producible.

That's not entirely true...

In Judaism it's traditional to have arguments with God... plus they have a written tradition plus an oral tradition.

And during the biblical times the prophets did just what you are talking about... act as intercessors with God to determine his desires...

I understand and appreciate your intent, but your inaccuracies muddy the waters way too much...

I see the Habiru and Hapiri have a lot of fruitless arguments with their wives to of which far to many show up at my door.

Come on guys make love and not war and I could get a little more much appreciated rest at night.

Oh and those caps...not exactly a fashion plate accessory no wonder the ladies would prefer to dine out with me too.

Buy a copy of GQ and just stop all the arguing for pity's sake! Everyone looses in a confrontation.

Now as far as Biblical times my friend as I said the books are closed and clearly one can see through both religious and real history there was a paganistic interaction with Abraham's desert G-d once upon a time that had nothing to do with the aforementioned motorcycle club, who are by the way much more fun to invite to backyard parties than the religious class.

While I respect everyone and anyone's right to choose not to step on a crack or break their mother's back, avoid running in and out of underneath ladders while making moose ears with your fingers and sticking out your tongue at the sky above and not to just haul off and kick a black cat a good swift one that gets in your way, oh and to never go swimming within an hour of eating something...

Superstitious nonsense deceptively used for political and mystical occult purposes is still superstitious nonsense deceptively used for political and mystical occult purposes!

I sincerely hope that little stitch in time saves nine!

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I agree that many people do accept the bible as the "word of god" and so forth, but the thing is even the bible says not to do this. Jesus says specifically that the scribes are not the authority.

Matthew 7

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Scribes of course are those who write scripture.

It's not so much that the bible itself is "bad", it's that men tell and get people to accept it as truth and the ultimate authority. And when things are accepted, then they are not understood.

All things need to be in their proper place. If you are building a house, and you put the foundation above the roof, that house is going to fall. Does that mean that either the roof or the foundation are bad and wrong? No, it just means you didn't have them in their proper place. If you put the foundation at the bottom, and the roof on the top, then the house does not fall. Same pieces, just now they are in their proper places, fulfilling their proper roles.

As Jesus would say, the pharisees sit in the seat of moses. IE: Things are not in their proper places, roles and functions.

Taking the bible as the ultimate authority and the "word of god" is putting things in the wrong place. And that brings the closed loop you speak of. But, obviously in order for the bible to even be divinely inspired, it means those who wrote it had to hear another word, the bible didn't just appear out of no where, we know who wrote it. That word is the real authority.

I even think the bible carries both sides. The NT especially. Seems to be half truth(Jesus), half lies(Paul). Tons of contradictions between the 2 of them. Of course, if I put the bible as the authority, then I wouldn't see that, or allow for it. Only because it is not the authority do I see it.

reply to post by badmedia


Ah yes, the concept of Jesus, a meek, loving, forgiving, charitable, nurturing and healing man divinely inspired and born but of human flesh.

It is a notion that is as romantic as it is spiritual and hopeful and who but the most despotic and sadistic amongst us would fail to see the value and wisdom in such wholesome, productive and constructive qualities.

The Habiru/Hapiri/Hebrew of which he was born sees him as an evil and malicious usurper.

The Christians see him as the one true savior and the son and living incarnation of the deity that the Habiru purportedly worship though history and their own writings are rather vague on that.

The Muslims see him as a holy prophet a man divinely inspired by but not born of the G-d that all three sects imagine and purport that they share.

Where indeed did the Bible just appear? Why did Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Lustinianus so defile the beloved and enduring Corpus Juris Civilis by adding the Codex Justinianus the Pandectae the Institutiones and the Novellae and borrow so many Gnostic elements from the Sassanid’s spiritual teachings in a farcical display of ecumenical councils to formalize the grossly distorted beliefs of a small Judean cult whose charismatic priest Jesus inspired his apostles to spread it far and wide?

I think the answer for Flavius’s treasonous acts against the Roman peoples can be found in some basic common sense.

Julius = Jesus
Brutus = Judas

Jesus had his 12 symbolic apostles representing the 12 signs of the Zodiac with him at the center as the Sun that they revolved around to spread the Gospel.

Caesar had his 12 lictors representing the 12 signs of the Zodiac with him at the center as the Sun that they revolved around to spread the Law.

Caesar’s lictors had their fasces.

Just as Moses had his Pharisees.

History carved in Stone not written on Religious paper clearly denotes Moses as the last Pharaoh of the Hyksos dynasty of Egypt which was comprised of Hapiri usurpers that eventually the citizens of Egypt rebelled against. Just as the Babylonians had revolted against Habiru usurpation of their throne by a people who still to this day have a reputation for wandering far and wide and inserting themselves into positions of commercial, political, military and religious power in the kingdoms they migrate into and out of, where they wish to never assimilate but be seen as separate but equal.

History carved in stone clearly denotes there never was a Yahweh but there was a Yahwisheh the Canaanite G-d of Pirates, Mercenaries and Thieves that the Habiru/Hapiri have foisted upon the world under a different name, who they themselves only refer in writing to their G-d just like that, G…-…d and in speaking as ‘our Lord’.

Personally I would have never imagined so many people would be so fond of turnips that the only way to get them off that diet is by kicking them of the proverbial truck.

Clearly a economically bankrupt Roman state heavily indebted to Hapiri money lenders struck a deal with them to not just pay them back but enlist their aide in continuing to expand the Roman Empire on a shoe string budget through a false religious doctrine manufactured in Rome at a series of ecumenical councils that formulated yet another sun worship religion but with extreme elements of control ideal for those tasked with carrying out Rome’s endless divide and conquer warfare in establishing a New World Order.

A New World Order that if you are an American Citizen you can see proudly proclaimed in Latin on the back of your One Dollar Bill next to the Great Seal that also prominently features the American fasces in that ever tell tale number of 13. The Sun and the 12 signs of the Zodiac also well known as Caesar’s 13th Legion that the Statue of Liberty who urges the world to give up their “tired hungry and poor, and their huddled masses” to enlist and fight in for Rome’s glory.

Flavius Petrus Sabbatius Lustinianus’s treason is not acceptable nor is his illegal violation of the Corpus Juris Civilis in this deceptive plot and Contract he is carrying out with the Habiru.

As a respectable Roman Citizen in good standing I demand my bread and circuses, co-ed bathhouses, and a properly consecrated Bacchius inspired Temple in which to properly commune spiritually in a proper hedonistic fashion.

Fraud is fraud and I for one shall not condone it or abide it.

Rome has broken it’s contract with the citizen and risks rebellion as citizens such as I become increasingly irritable with the self serving machinations of the corrupt officials of the Empire and their treasonous and larcenous ways as they line their pockets and expand their glories at the expense of the pockets and dignity of plebes and patricians alike.

Such a large slave class defeats Rome’s higher pursuits of art and science and wealth.


[edit on 15/6/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Superstitious nonsense deceptively used for political and mystical occult purposes is still superstitious nonsense deceptively used for political and mystical occult purposes!

Once again, I agree with most everything you have said here, regarding the habiru etc...


However, religions run deeper than simply "Superstitious nonsense"

Consider the laws of the subjective realm. Much like Newton posited the Laws of the Objective realm (physics), there are also laws of the Subjective realm as well.

Now, in much the same way that objective science once believed in spontaneous generation due to objective phenomena like salamanders jumping out of logs lit on fire, subjective science has often believed that there was a supreme intelligence wielding a moral code behind such subjective phenomena as visions, premonitions, manifestations etc...

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Seriously, the only reason that "Superstitious nonsense" can be used "deceptively for political" purposes is because of the power of belief. That one fact alone, shows that there is a HUGE powerhouse to be found in what we believe. And most importantly, that what we believe doesn't have to have anything in common with what others believe to be true.... We shouldn't sacrifice one belief for another, we should understand that WE control our belief, and that our belief controls our reality.

That's not superstitious nonsense.

Now that's only one of the laws of the subjective realm. Others work with elements of the subconscious mind, such as the process of automatic writing, or self healing or a whole list of other things the subconscious mind can effect.

As I have mentioned before, I will assume a spirit in a rock and speak to it, because the process of doing so allows me to bring things into consciousness in a way that only a discussion with the projected personality can allow.

Granted, that's a far cry from being a creationist who hates gays... But it's still working within the subjective realm. There have been avatars like Jesus, Jung, Buddha, Einstein, Crowley, etc and other Mages of this craft, which all interpreted these through their own cultural identifiers...

Yes the masses and throngs who believe they follow the teachings of these people are like children believing in the tooth fairy.... but that doesn't change the fact that there is wisdom in the underlying understandings of each of these systems of belief.