Gun-loving pastor to his flock: Piece be with you

Originally posted by whaaa
I wonder how Jesus Christ would view his house of sanctuary, peace and praise to God becoming a place where implements of death were to be displayed and also worshiped in a way?

Well, seeing as a large proportion of those who don't believe in protecting the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution also don't believe in Jesus Christ or Christianity, I think he'd see it as his flock celebrating one of their God given rights under the U.S. Constitution.

reply to post by whaaa


You really should read your Bible a bit more.

In John Chapter 18, we find that a Roman Cohort (almost 500 men and officers) the priests and Pharisees came after Jesus on the Mount of Olives, when Jesus said, "I am he," you'll note that they all stepped back and fell to the ground.

Don't remember that part, do you?

It must have been something to see some 500-odd men on a mission upon meeting their "prey," back up and fall to the ground.

What does Peter do when facing a professional Roman cohort?

He stepped in swinging his sword.

That took nerve. What was Peter doing with a sword? Well, I'm sure Jesus knew he carried one, and so did another I can't recall the identity of right now.

I carry a concealed .45ACP at church. Because of my past, I was asked in light of the many unprovoked attacks on churches and church members, to do so.

It's not widely known, it's not made a big deal of. I'm not the only one.

It's common sense in the increasingly crazy world we live in.

They know me, they know my past, they know I won't make a mistake, I won't miss, and I won't hesitate if a shooting situation manifests itself.

I remain in the rear of the congregation, and those that know are comforted, knowing someone has their backs and that there will be no surprises.

Shocking, huh?

[edit on 26-6-2009 by dooper]

COOL! This is exactly how it was back in the day.


There is NOTHING wrong with this as far as I can see.

In most places in the states as long as you have fulfilled whatever requirements your state has, if any, to lawfully carry there isnt some extra regulation making churches off limits.

While this priest calls for his congregation to carry into church and makes a big fuss for the anti's and creates a little publicity for himself all across the country people have been carrying to church all along and will continue to do so.

More power to him but stories like this always make it seem "special" or "different" for the gun-ignorant and the anti's when for an awful lot of people it's regular and mundane.

I'm not sure if this help or hurts in that it both can rally the anti's around a non-cause but it can also educate the gun-ignorant for the better.

It probably does both to hurt and to help leaving us right where we were in the beginning.

I don't understand people's reactions to other people carrying firearms. They treat it like it's a disease. People see guns as a form of death and not a form of protection, and they don't even realize that the only reason they view guns this way is because the media has conditioned them to do so.

If more people openly carried firearms, crime rates would drop. If laws were re-written to prevent people who use firearms for self-defense from being prosecuted, crime rates would drop.

Why don't we view knives the same way? Or broken glass? Or hell, even a pen! If someone really wanted to kill another person, something as simple as a pen would work just fine.

Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Things would be a lot better if we embraced weapons rather than shunned them. But, as typical with government, their "solutions" (i.e. firearm bans) to society's "problems" (i.e. crime) only make the problem worse.

Piece on earth, and death-wish among men.

Not quite what the angels said, if I remember rightly.

...we're not ashamed to say that there was a strong belief in God and firearms

Granted, many believe there is not necessarily a conflict between following Christ and self-defense. The problem I see here is that when a pastor speaks of God and firearms in a single breath like that he almost seems to be saying both are part of the Christian message, which they are not - though pseudo-Christian political powers such as governments, monarchies and Popes have manipulated the masses over the centuries to believe they are.

Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's I say. (Somebody else said it first.) The business of the Church is to love and worship God. Not mobilization.

reply to post by whaaa

Then why are they bringing them into Gods house

God's "house" among men currently, according to Christian theology, is us. Our body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Earlier, his chosen dwelling was the Temple. In actuality though, nothing can "house" God. We can meet with God outside the confines of a church. In fact, I do it everyday as I'm at home and on my way to various places around town.


As an American, I'm glad to see that other Americans are standing up for their rights. As a fellow Christian, I hope that this church will [if they're not already] put as much "love" and "boldness" [I can't put into words what I want to say] into following Christ and seeking him. Sometimes, I feel that churches/Christians get too wrapped up in the political things here on Earth and the faith gets left behind. You know what I mean?

I missed this thread when it was new.

Isn't bringing a gun to Church ironic? Doesn't the Bible condemn murder, and support trust and peace and love and faith?

This sounds like ... wrong. If you're not supposed to bring Church into the state... why bring the state into Church?

Originally posted by pause4thought The business of the Church is to love and worship God. Not mobilization.

That depends pretty largely on what your church is and who is your god.

Those two factors depend further on the motivation behind who's running the church, the mindset of those attending the church and how they interpret the teaching of their chosen god.

"And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?"

So they said, "Nothing."

Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."

So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords."

And He said to them, "It is enough." " (Luke 22:35-38, NKJV)

Just because your church and your god and your interpretations and your mindset say one thing doesnt mean any other church or any other individual shares your outlook.

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
Doesn't the Bible condemn murder

Aren't some churches built out of wood and nails? I think the Jesus fellow may have an issue with such a construction method.

Don't they light candles with fire? People have been burned alive.

At what point does it become ridiculous? Guns are not the only tool of murder. There are many simpler tools that can be used for murder that we use in our daily lives and never question.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere

Just because your church and your god and your interpretations and your mindset say one thing doesnt mean any other church or any other individual shares your outlook.

...which is why I believe it is right to engage in debate. You're surely not against someone stating a position that differs from yours are you? That's all I did, my friend. And I recognize that this debate is not straight-forward, so I respect you for bringing in another perspective.

As to the passage you quoted, I see it not as a move to raise an armed resistance - reference 2 swords being enough - but a graphic forewarning that Christ's followers were going to face armed opposition. I believe this is born out by subsequent events, when Christ told Peter to put his sword away, and healed the one he had just attacked. But you are entitled to your view.

reply to post by dooper


Dooper, I want to be just like you! Not kidding! I carry also, and I am a leader in my field, but I missed the boat on all the training and life experience you have. I highly respect what you have done, and what you are continuing to do!

Back on topic, this isn't a case of guns being necessary at church, it is a celebration of one of our basic rights that is key to the success of America for the past 200 years. It is an education opportunity, and education in any field (including weaponry) is always a good thing. And it has brought some attention to the issue at hand as well as his church. Every pastor could use more attention to his church, so I applaud him!

As for the couple of people that said this was their hell, Americanism, Religion, and Guns.......I say good! This doesn't compare to the hell you would experience if those 3 things disappeared from your life!!

One side of me says that this is a perfect example of religion extremism.

The other side of me says this is the purist form of patriotism out there.

Our nation was founded on religion, guns, money and dreams.

Who am I to judge what makes one more American than another.

More power to them I say, let them fashion their handguns at church.

After all this is the U.S of A .

I don't see anything wrong with them bringing their guns to church, after all they will be unloaded. As long as they're not violating any laws i don't see the problem. There was a time when it was commonplace for people to bring their firearms to church with them.

That song came to mind.

Praise The Lord and Pass The Ammunition -Serj Tankian

I just hope there won't be any accident, if someone fire their gun, how many would be wounded in the crossfire ?

I wonder what would jesus have said about bringing guns to his church ... just as I wonder about how jesus think of us destroying his creation ?

Then again, I believe if Jesus exist, he would be ashamed of what has been done in his name.

reply to post by ravenshadow13


What's ironic about it, are they bringing their guns to church with the intent to murder ?

What specifically sounds wrong about it ?

How does bringing their guns into church equate with bringing the state into church ?

I can only speak for myself. My God never changes. He is the same today as yesterday and the same tomorrow.

My same God of the New Testament is my same God of the Old Testament. He does not contradict Himself.

True, the Old Law was fulfilled, but if one wants to see His position on things not specifically addressed in the New Testament, I guarantee you - you can find it in the Old.

He called David, "a man after mine own heart." David was a man of war. So was Joshua. In fact, Joshua was my kind of guy.

Folks want to ignore the scripture they personally don't like - and that's just not prudent.

A weapon in the hands of the Apostles and disciples was perfectly fine in the New Testament, and the ability to defend oneself and even defend those unable to defend themselves is a duty.

I read of the Roman Centurion being converted to Christianity. A man of war. He was not compelled to change his vocation.

So those of you with artificial sensitivities, they are yours, and unscriptural.

So please. Get off our backs.

I hope I never, ever have to use a gun again.

But I'll do so in a skinny minute to defend myself - or defend another. Especially those who are simply unprepared for he who would do evil just for the sake of killing.

And I'll meet my Maker with fear and trembling.

But not on that account.

reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II


Ferris, your Il Duce avatar is fantastic!

More like El Douche.

reply to post by dooper

[God] called David, "a man after mine own heart." David was a man of war.

The former is why he was a man of God. The latter is why God forbade him from building the temple. I too know my OT.

As to Joshua, he was called by God to forge a nation-state with no supreme leader other than God: a theocracy. Is that what Christians are called to? No, it is not.

"If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would fight." That is what Christ said. He called his people to spread the kingdom of God - a kingdom that is 'within you' as he put it. A brotherhood of ordinary folks who love and worship their Maker.

I read of the Roman Centurion being converted to Christianity. A man of war. He was not compelled to change his vocation.

Slavery is accepted in the New Testament as a fact of life. It is never condoned (and violence is never advocated to remove it). Likewise soldiering is accepted as an aspect of society in that day and age, as today no doubt. It is never condoned as something to aspire to for Christ's disciples. The main point is this: the Gospel was not designed to change the social order per se, rather to transform the heart of the hearer.

So those of you with artificial sensitivities, they are yours, and unscriptural.

No, my views are based entirely on Scripture. It may simply be that you have only been exposed to a single interpretation.

So please. Get off our backs.

If you fear the presentation of a contrary position why debate?

I hope I never, ever have to use a gun again...

But I'll do so in a skinny minute to defend myself - or defend another....

...And I'll meet my Maker with fear and trembling.

But not on that account.

It does sound like you have a closed mind on this. But it never does anyone any harm to re-examine an issue, and oneself, in the light of Scripture. Especially as even if we may have been wrong (in thought or deed,) forgiveness has already been paid for.

reply to post by pause4thought


I don't think I have a closed mind. Maybe I've seen a few things you haven't, which has pointed me in a different direction.

A handful of us on long range patrol just missed the slaughter of a village by no more than an hour or two. Men. Women. Boys. Girls. Just simple farmers. Everyone but two (who were on the edge of the jungle and hid) were slaughtered.

One was pregnant, had three or four holes right in the belly.

"Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord."

Yeah, I know that one too, but angered by what we saw, we tracked them down (missing our pickup by a few days), violating an international border and several Army regulations, and then when we found them, commenced to arrange their face to face meeting with their Creator.

No judging at all on our part. We didn't judge them.

Just arranged a face to face with their Creator.

Each of us is given talents, gifts, abilities. Thankfully, most are creative, comforting and constructive.

There are a few who are apparently good at other things that are neither creative, comforting, nor constructive. You don't set out to be good at these things, you certainly don't choose your gifts, but the best you can do is to use these gifts to help those who can't help themselves.

It would be a gross abomination for me to sit and watch others be victims when I am present, as I know for a fact that I can change the equation.

I much rather meet my Maker having stood between those predators and their intended victims. There are both gatekeepers and far archers. They do what others can't.

I could never refuse to do what is necessary and hold my head up.

Closed mind? More like an oft-penetrated body. I have shrapnel, bullet, and even bayonet wounds on every part of my body. Each hard-earned.

I'll be on the wall.

Armed.