N. Korea has got to go

I just read this on a link SE7EN put up on ATS chat.

Portraits of North Korean ruler Kim Jong-il and his late father, Kim Il-sung are mandatory in all the nation's homes and workplaces. Several people died following last week's train explosion, going into damaged buildings to rescue them, officials reported.

Note: Emphesis added


news.bbc.co.uk...

Does anyone have evidence which corroberates this story? Who the officials were, what happened, etc.?

I smell Sadam....... He moved to North Korea an got a facelift like in that movie "Faceoff", further more i thought that once the pictures went up in homes the "Dictator" was already mass killing people for comfort an laughs.... an at which point the Good ole U.S. of A started devising attack plans, i bet one is in the works as we speak can we say D.R.A.F.T.? you betcha but im sure once a Draft is reinstated a revolt against our Guberment shall take place, might be the beer speaking but theres truth to everything even in small bits.

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by Trance]

IMHO, North Korea will implode on its own devices and policies.
The US does not need to do anything but cautiously watch.



seekerof

TRANCE: This was the BBC, not NPR or an American media outlet.

SEEKEROF: I agree, N. Korea will implode, but how many people have to suffer in the mean time? I'm not advocating war, I...Well, I don't have a solution, I just wish for the N. Korean government to be gone as soon as is possible.

Originally posted by Seekerof
IMHO, North Korea will implode on its own devices and policies.
The US does not need to do anything but cautiously watch.
seekerof

Unstable governments do not implode. They go out in a "blaze of glory."

SEEKEROF: I agree, N. Korea will implode, but how many people have to suffer in the mean time?

In all due honesty junglejake, I cannot give a valued reason as to your question. It does deserve merit and thought, but the US, despite what we may feel or think, cannot just militarily get involved with North Korea. The intricacy's of this are far more intertwined than they were with Iraq.
Suffering of millions have been with Man since the dawn of civilizations and the advent of communities and cities. I don't like the suffering that is taking place in this world no more than you or anyone else in this world does, but going to war over this is going to only cause the problem to be magnifide tremendously, not decrease it.
The alternative is to allow crazy Kim to just implode, sadly at the costs of his own peoples suffering, but I am sure that he knows this also.




seekerof

Originally posted by Trance
I smell Sadam....... He moved to North Korea an got a facelift like in that movie "Faceoff", further more i thought that once the pictures went up in homes the "Dictator" was already mass killing people for comfort an laughs.... an at which point the Good ole U.S. of A started devising attack plans, i bet one is in the works as we speak can we say D.R.A.F.T.? you betcha but im sure once a Draft is reinstated a revolt against our Guberment shall take place, might be the beer speaking but theres truth to everything even in small bits.

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by Trance]

off topic but there will be no draft because recruitment levels are at and exceeding the needs of the military in all branches.

north korea is controlled by horrible people, i mean i'd compare it to nazi ruled germany, i dont see why anyone should be upset if we did invade them.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo

Originally posted by Seekerof
IMHO, North Korea will implode on its own devices and policies.
The US does not need to do anything but cautiously watch.
seekerof

Unstable governments do not implode. They go out in a "blaze of glory."

ottoman empire, rome, carthage, babylon, assyria, etc, etc all prove your statement wrong.

north korea one way or another will not be around another 100 years, and im willling to bet on it

Seekerof, that was why I said I don't advocate a military solution in that case. Especially by the US. To do that would cause even more misery then before. The part of me that doesn't think about consequences says invade, but thankfully, that's a really small part. I just think it needs to go. I don't have an answer or solution for this one.

Out of curiosity, has anyone found any link or anything that gives more info/creedance to this BBC article?

Originally posted by Seekerof
IMHO, North Korea will implode on its own devices and policies.
The US does not need to do anything but cautiously watch.



seekerof

I do agree SO but I think there are ways we could help this along without open war to the benifit of the poor human dregs caught up in this evil dictatorship.

1. Apply economic pressure on the Chinese, they really are at this time dependant on U.S. for their economic as well as political survival for the short term.

2. Use our stealh aircraft to drop steel penetrators into their reactors setting them back several years to a decade in plutonium production.

3. Done, give Kim the message that we are meaning business by taking a defensive posture that will guarantee the arrival of re-enforcments prior to the defeat of the south. Ie: pusan breakout all over again. This stops Kim from attacking in a forgone conclusion mode.

4. I'm sure the plans have aspects that are beyond me to assure U.S. victory - I'll just have to get a better imagination.

Like I've said in other threads, I'm hoping China steps up and keeps the lid on N. Korea and it is in their best interest to do so. We have no business getting involved in that. We already have stuff going on too close to China (ie: Afganistan) which they pretty much seem to be ignoring or at least assuming a wait and see attitude on.

Every Superpower has to have a few little military dicators to do away with. I suppose Kim is China's.

ottoman empire, rome, carthage, babylon, assyria, etc, etc all prove your statement wrong.

Good try, but NK is nothing like the empires you mentioned, because NK is not an empire.

The bigger they are, the harder they fall. NK is so small that they'll end up creating a major ruckuss as they fade.

I agree North Korea will not be around within the next 100 years. In fact, I believe North Korea will go into non-existance within the next 20-some years.

What is rather disturbing is exactly that, NOTHING is happening. You'd figure the U.S. government, which supposedly means business, actually gives a damn about human beings, would try something against North Korea. After all, it is a major threat (unlike Iraq). But nothing is happening. Bush criticized Clinton's policies, yet he is doing the same thing: discussing and stalling, discussing and stalling.

What I'm asking is, what is our government so afraid of? For a regime that so blatantly refers to NK as "evil" and calls itself the "guardians of peace and justice," they have been sitting back and picking out the enemies that LOOK like threats. Gives you the impression that our government isn't what it claims.

Thus, I really have no idea how NK will go down. Worst case is always a war (which could change NK's future). Other than that, NK is gone. But I don't see how. Small regimes don't implode. They may be unstable, but how much is there to fall?

I know, the U.S. government may be very well afraid of the cost of human life in any situation with NK. But if that's what they're afraid of, I don't know why our president spoke with such a loud and obnoxious voice.

If you're not going to do anything about it, then don't complain.

In the original post that states that people died going into buildings to rescue "them", what does "them" refer to? Does "them" refer to the portraits or people unable to leave the buildings without assistance?


Added comment:
I guess I read the original post too fast, one week would definitely be enough time to evacuate everyone. "them" has to be the portraits. Guess that seemed too crazy to believe at first.

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by orionthehunter]

[Edited on 30-4-2004 by orionthehunter]

Eventually, South Korea will have to reabsorb at least a good part of the North if only because someone will have to bury all the people that have starved because you can't eat delusions of nuclear grandeur.

Yeah, just as in Germany, semi-westernized S Korea will come in and save the victims of the failed system, eventually.

Originally posted by Ambient Sound
Yeah, just as in Germany, semi-westernized S Korea will come in and save the victims of the failed system, eventually.

Yeah but even 10+ years down the road Germany is still struggling to come to a strong national identity and to really fully absorb the economic strain put on them by the reunification, my guess is a Korean Peninsular Country will have many more problems than the two Germanys.

True, but they are stuck between two of the most powerful economic powers (China and Japan) on the planet. We can hope they will adapt and do well. Most everybody around them is.

Why the US is not going to invade N Korea

The point the US was trying to make with N Korea's neighbors in having multiple countries attend the recent series of talks in Beijing is that N Korea is more China's problem than the US's.

The rare meeting that China held with Kim Jong Il just recently came on the heels of US Vice President Dick Cheney's visit with the Chinese.

Why is N Korea more of a regional threat than a threat to the US? The Bush administration is betting the farm on the success of the National Missile Defense system which should be operational enough to handle the N Korean nuke threat as early as the end of THIS year.

Because of the confidence the NMD gives US policy makers, if I had to guess I would say that Cheney told the Chinese that Kim is their problem more than the US's, and if they don't do more to fix the Kim problem the Chinese can expect;
1. Taiwan to get more advanced military hardware and...
2. Japan to become a declared nuclear power with the US's blessing (and technology).

However, if China complies and pulls their boy Kim back in line, they can expect US concessions on weapons sales to Taiwan and a more open door to technology trade with the US.

Of course if the N Koreans attack Japan or the US with a nuke or invade S Korea all bets are off... at that point North Korea will probably quickly be transformed into a parking lot that glows in the dark for the next few centuries.
Again, this is just my opinion.

I think the U.S.'s methods are rather unusual. It seems like our president is trying too hard to make this China's problem (when it really isn't). So we're trying rather unproductive efforts such as supplying Taiwan and Japan with advanced military technology?

China, for one, is one of the nations that doesn't fear the U.S. It doesn't like U.S. support of Taiwan, but it's entire attitude towards the two nations is "bring it on." China, I hardly believe will invade Taiwan, because it at least wants to be the good guy in the situation. The only way to do that is to not invade China, and only do so should they be provoked.

Same with North Korea. NK has NOTHING to lose, everything to gain, so it is not afraid of the U.S. or Japan for that matter.

All this shows a lot about our government. We can talk the talk, but can never walk the walk. That is, unless we're fighting highly inferior and non-threatening opponents. It's like I said, call NK evil, but don't just stand there and throw insults.

What our government needs to instead do, is recognize that China and NK are not Japan, France, or Turkey. The tiger and the dragon are nations you have to get dirty with if you want to win. Otherwise, give it up, because the U.S. won't win any other way.

[Edited on 1-5-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]