Do I dare speak of the abortion issue? A story for you.

First of all..I don't know where I stand on this...it's a tough thing for me to tackle personally. There are so many sub issues to the main issue...many of which are often not even spoke of.

I'm going to share something personal here...possibly at my own peril to many here.

First off, I have been affected by the abortion issue. When my mother was pregnant, the doctor told my mother that she should have an abortion...which she didn't obviously...for which I'm quite thankful for! Supposedly I peed in the doctors face immediately after being born...so I was able to get some payback in there!

Second, I was in a relationship with another woman years ago when I was younger and she became pregnant....it was mutual at the time as we both knew what we were doing. When she actually found out...she completely turned around and said she wasn't ready. I was shocked at the time...but I supported her even though I didn't want to. We rarely talked about it up to the time of the abortion and it put tremendous strain on our relationship....which eventually ended. This was about 10 years ago. Now, for the rest of my life I will be left wondering what my life would be like right now. I could have had a boy to teach to play catch...to throw a football around or to watch sports with...and to teach him what I know...or a daughter...with whom I would have been EXTREMELY protective of! I know what guys are like...I am one! I will forever regret not speaking my mind...but what bothers me most is that I had no real choice...it was ultimately not up to me.

Third, my current wife has a legally retarded grandmother. She was born that way...long before abortion was legal. But here is the real shocker.....she was raped by a babysitter at the age of 16...and became pregnant with my wife's mother. I bring this up because many people, even those who are strongly opposed to abortion, would support one in this case. Again, abortion was not legal at the time so her mother was born....and with her mother being born...she married and had 4 children...one of which I am with now....and who is 1 month away from being a mother herself for the first time. My wife's mother now takes care of her grandmother. Weird how things work out eh? This is another case were my life could have possibly been different...if abortion were legal at the time.

Abortion is such a personal issue. Many things are involved...the rights of a child, the rights of the mother, and the rights of the father.

Myself, I would never let myself be in the situation again...and if somehow it did...I would never let abortion be an option if I was able to have any sway on the issue...although it's not something I would ever have to worry about with my current wife.

The thing I feel most strongly about...I feel the father should have some say in these matters. I know that many won't agree with that...but it's how I feel.

I believe in the right to the individual. The problem with abortion is that the rights of the woman and the rights of an unborn child contradict each other.

This is what I struggle with the most as I believe everyone has the right to be as free as possible...without infringing on another's rights.

I just thought I'd share this...have thought about it for awhile...and for the most part I stay away from the abortion issue entirely because it often gets very heated...and often the extreme name calling and insults follow.

I'd like to ask those who do post in this thread to please refrain from that. Common ground on issues such as these are never gained by anger.

Personally, I am against abortion in all of it's forms, but I will attempt to leave that at the door for this one.
This would depend in this situation on what kind of retardation the grandmother has. Is it genetic, a fluke from some chemical taken into her system before birth, etc.
The chances of the child having the genes depends on what kind of retardation it is. You say that the mother of your partner had 4 children of her own, did any of them end up with symptoms or not?
If none of them had/have anything then there is a pretty good chance that the child won't have anything unless it's recessive.

reply to post by spec_ops_wannabe


No, all of the children were normal...and all of the grandchildren as well..and all of whom are very smart. I do admit..it's something that I worry about but so far no signs of that being the case. Only one month away!

Btw...I'm scared ****less!!

It's probably the only real reason I care about what is happening in the world..I never cared before. But now it's not about me anymore...now there is a reason for my ass to get up to go to work!

Personally, I too am against abortion .. the right to choose comes BEFORE conception, crazy humons (why is THAT so darn hard for so many humons to understand? Are some humons so stupid they can't understand that? REALLY?) But on the other hand, like everyone else upon this planet, I do not have any god given authority to tell another person what they can do to themselves and another life they may carry inside themselves. Yeah, I believe abortion is murder, but then also I consider the killing of that baby killer today nothing more than a SUPER LATE term abortion, ha. That doctor murdered many lives, the most innocent lives that can be found on Earth, and for that he should have aborted himself a LONG ago.

reply to post by David9176


Alright, congrats to you then.
I have good hope for you, I'm sure the kid will end up like the rest of it's cousins in all of likeliness then. It is certainly something to be proud of, of course this means that ATS for you is going to be different I would imagine.

Have you rehearsed for delivery time I hope? Getting a list of people to call to get together when it comes time, where you'd prefer to deliver at, etc.

reply to post by Divinorumus


The problem though is that many who are pro abortion are pro war...which results in the deaths of innocent children as well...and this also goes vice versa as those who are anti war are often pro abortion.

It's contradictory...on both sides....if one ultimately believes in the importance of all human life.

Your experiances create your thoughts and personality and the body you are placed in from birth and which those experiances are written on does have an effect on your overal progression. Sometimes the scars and defects we carry place us in situations that create rapid understanding of the world around us. I cannot say "you will be better off" born with a complete fully functional body. Would you want a complete body or a broken one?

Once we realize that human conciousness is mearly a mathmatical process nothing moral prevents us from selecting a body on which these experiances will be written.

reply to post by spec_ops_wannabe


When we found out she was pregnant...it was almost exactly at the same time when Bush and Paulson walked out on television and said that we needed to bail out the banks.

So instantly I started to worry and pay attention to what was happening...and it ticks me off to no end!

As for the planning....the hospital is very close to my work...so if she should go into labor then I'll be close and her mother will take her as she lives close to us.

The doctor said it will be a girl...and it better be because we are already stocked up on girl clothing and other girly stuff...lots of pink. We already picked out a name.
Saved up some money as well....hopefully I won't get layed off and have to use it!

I went from a guy who didn't give a crap to a guy who worries FAR too much.

reply to post by David9176


Thanks for sharing that with us David, not many have your life experience, and I understand that is aint easy discussing this, where most in your position would keep silent.

I oppose abortion unless it is in the case of rape, incest, threat to life of the mother. I dont think abortion should be available to those individuals who were carelessly having intercourse without protection knowing full well the outcome or havign knowledge of it. Your wife must have lived quiet a life, especially with knowing the fact of how she came to be, I am happy she turned out well despite the circumstances faced by her mother. That being said, those woman under the circumstances of rape and incest, those of us will never understand the pain, and I think its very important we leave the option of abortion open to these individuals while promoting the alternative route of adoption and allowing the fetus to grow. The burden of being raped or molested is one thing, going through more burden such as pregnancy, child birth and knowing there is a child out the as the result of a terrible situation, and that child been brought up into the world. These are burdens that the woman involved should have a choice not to go through. That choice is very important, while at the same time advocating the alternative to that choice. At the end of the day we are talking about the individual who was put through a horrible complicated situation, we should not force them to go through another burden however rightous we may feel. That option should be there.

[edit on 1-6-2009 by Southern Guardian]

Oh boy, one of the Intraweb's oldest and bitterest flamewar topics...well, OK, I'll weigh in with my two cents.

Personally, I look at the issue through this lense: I'd rather not be born than be born to parents that didn't want me and/or weren't prepared to have me.

It all comes down to whether you think life itself is an absolute good, or whether you believe there are things in life that are worse than the quitetude of non-existence.

I fall squarely within the latter camp. I think a blind adherence to the principle that life is an "absolute good" in and of itself is worse than simplistic: it perpetuates suffering of all sorts on all levels, whether its bringing unwanted humans into an already-overcrowded world or clawing and scraping to keep groaning, wheezing elders alive and in pain & agony for another week or two at terrrible cost rather than accepting the inevitablity of human mortality with dignity.

Yo D how you being?

Anyways I have a different take on things - as usual

My existence is due to an abortion some 75 years back...

My granny got involved with a married man all those years ago -
She ended up getting a back alley abortion because her religious family would have disowned her (direct quote).

She became sterile from the procedure and almost died as a result.
Anyhow she and my grandfather wanted a child so they decided to adopt.
For some reason (WWII era) they could not find any babies in Los Angeles.
so they took a trip up to Washington State and after a long search adopted my mother.

My mother and father met at UCLA in the early 60's in a chance meeting.


I often think if my granny went thru with that pregnancy she would not have not have felt the need to go baby looking 1000 miles away when she did.

My mom always said if my grandfather was not sick at the time she would have gone to Harvard - My grandfather was not her biological parent and therefore his health would not have impeded her university selection.

while my father used to say he wanted to go to UCLA since he could remember ( born and raised in NYC)...

So in my mind the abortion my granny had was the catalyst for my parents meeting and my existence. I have thought about all the variables and I cannot fathom my parents meeting if my mother was not adopted due to circumstance surrounding that botched procedure.


Anyhow, thats my take on my story -

I understand what you are saying that men do not have a choice... And it goes both ways to boot-

Could it be that you and your wife might have not met provided you did have that child back then. You very well might not have gotten to know the wonderful souls you will have in time... ???

God is mysterious - where loss is gain and gain is loss

see you later David - hope you have plenty of children one day