Big Question: Why are we always controlled yet told we are free?

Originally posted by WWu777
To me, that's not freedom, because freedom is being able to do what you want, whether it be working or not working.

I wasn't going to say anything, but it seems no one else has been able to pick up this blatant flaw in your post's. What your describing is neither strong or weak, or free in any form that nature has intended. Your describing a parasitic symbiosis, which someone who is strong won't tolerate and being parasitic to someone weak, will only quickly deplete their resources.

This is why what you personally describe is considered as being looked upon as loser-ish. The weak will tolerate a parasite because they don't have the resources to fight against it, the strong will just throw you to the curb. Nature intends for us to work to survive, we hunt/gather our food, we build our shelters etc. Our species doesn't crawl up inside another organism in a parasitic fashion.

Originally posted by sirnex

Originally posted by WWu777
To me, that's not freedom, because freedom is being able to do what you want, whether it be working or not working.

I wasn't going to say anything, but it seems no one else has been able to pick up this blatant flaw in your post's. What your describing is neither strong or weak, or free in any form that nature has intended. Your describing a parasitic symbiosis, which someone who is strong won't tolerate and being parasitic to someone weak, will only quickly deplete their resources.

This is why what you personally describe is considered as being looked upon as loser-ish. The weak will tolerate a parasite because they don't have the resources to fight against it, the strong will just throw you to the curb. Nature intends for us to work to survive, we hunt/gather our food, we build our shelters etc. Our species doesn't crawl up inside another organism in a parasitic fashion.

W: So basically, you are never free then, since you have to conform to "nature" as you call it, or society, or your culture, your government, etc. So why the mass lie and delusion about "we are all free and live in a free country"?

There's enough technology and production to eliminate the need to work 8 hours a day. It's just that the monetary system prevents it.

www.thezeitgeistmovement.com...

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that everyone should be lazy and never do anything. I'm just saying that it should be a CHOICE whether one wants to be a workaholic or not. If there isn't a choice, then there can't be freedom. For society to require you to become a workaholic just to make ends meet, means that there is no real freedom. If you had real freedom, then you could CHOOSE whether you want to work all day, read all day, hike all day, be online, pursue hobbies, go out, travel the world, bake cookies, paint pictures, write books, etc. If it's mandatory and you have to conform to it, then how can that be freedom?

Years ago, when I worked for the Washington Employment Agency, I remember that when the unemployed would come in for an assessment, I would often overhear them tell our staff:

“I would much rather be working than collecting unemployment benefits. When I’m working, I have pride and purpose. I earn my money. And my weekends mean something. But when I’m unemployed, my weekends have no value. I don’t enjoy them.”

Frankly, I never understood this mentality that most Americans have.

I remember during my periods of unemployment, people would occasionally ask me “Aren’t you bored?” which would bewilder me, since how can one be bored when they have freedom to do what they want, get up whenever they want, eat whenever they want, etc.? Isn’t it far more boring and mind numbing to be under constant surveillance as a slave 8 to 9 hours a day, against your will, doing something you don’t want (most people’s jobs are not aligned with their interests after all), just for the money and because you “have to”? Hell ya! So I never understood this logic that said that your life is boring without a job and exciting with one.

Obviously, society conditions you to believe that your life is boring, meaningless, devoid of purpose, and ultimately depressing if you don’t have a JOB or regular employment, as if you were only half a man without one.

But for me, nothing could be further from the truth. With a million interests, I can always find something to do when I’m not working. Here is a list of examples off the top of my head:

- There are an unlimited amount of good interesting books I can read, in all areas of interest.
- There are an unlimited number of great films to watch that I’m interested in.
- There is a unlimited variety of music I can listen to.
- With the advent of the internet of course, there is an unlimited endless number of things I can do online, more than I could ever have time for.
- There are many hobbies I can indulge in – writing books and articles, learning to draw or paint, or learning any new skill or craft, etc.
- Outdoor activities, parks, hiking, swimming, sports, boating, etc. And if you live near a national park, all the better.
- Travel the world or around the country.
- There are an unlimited number of interesting people out there to meet and spend time with too (unless they are all working, which would be the case in workaholic type countries), especially if you are in a country where people are more open, communal, inclusive and less isolated.
- I can go shopping.
- I can learn to cook and prepare meals, or bake cookies
- I can call my many friends on the phone from all over the world

The list is endless as you can see. And the above can never be completely exhausted either. So how the hell can you have nothing to do if you’re unemployed? That makes no sense and seems like a cheap brainwashing tactic of society. I also don’t see why I have to feel “guilty” for doing what I want if I’m unemployed. In fact, even if I did nothing during my free time except sit around and daydream with my active rich imagination, I’d still be far more entertained than working a typical job of drudgery.

When I was at that Employment Agency and eventually laid off due to budget cuts, my coworkers felt pity for me and expected me to feel bad and take it hard. But in reality, I was in a state of euphoria, as though I were being released from jail (much like how I felt when I got out of high school) and about to regain my freedom again. My time and life would again be mine, and it was something to look forward to and be excited about, especially since I had plans to go overseas that summer and now had an excuse to extend my trip. This perplexed my coworkers, who believed that your job was your life and reason for living. Unlike me, they all “lived to work” and assumed that everyone else did too.

Kinda like a question I struggle with. "Do I work to live or live to work?".
In the real world most of us live to work, our lives are controlled and dictated to us by our work and its schedule.
One of the most free societies on earth was the American Indian but even they, being hunter gatherers, were not free from food and shelter procurement.
Todays American version of free would be to become indepentandtly wealthy beyond your means of spending and have others do all work for you,i.e. a modern day slave owner.
Axle Rose of Guns & Roses has a verse in Civil War which states "You cant trust freedom when its not in your hand.Everybodys fighting for the promised land."
I think we would or could though become much,much freer if we all chipped in and got along and ended all the fighting, warring and hating. Ahhh Utopia,we now have a goal, get to work and chip in!

Originally posted by WWu777
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that everyone should be lazy and never do anything. I'm just saying that it should be a CHOICE whether one wants to be a workaholic or not. If there isn't a choice, then there can't be freedom. For society to require you to become a workaholic just to make ends meet, means that there is no real freedom. If you had real freedom, then you could CHOOSE whether you want to work all day, read all day, hike all day, be online, pursue hobbies, go out, travel the world, bake cookies, paint pictures, write books, etc. If it's mandatory and you have to conform to it, then how can that be freedom?

Problem is, everyone already does indeed have the freedom to do these thing's. I'm personally against being forced by society to work under someone else just to make a meager living, I'm with you on that aspect. This type of system is no different than voluntary slavery. We allow this system to exist because those in power say it works, when just simply looking around is proof positive that it isn't working.

So basically, you are never free then, since you have to conform to "nature" as you call it

I'm guess you aren't understanding the big picture. The weak have the freedom to become stronger, maybe not in strength, but in intellect. Some have done this, but the majority of the weak live their lives as slaves to the strong, which is how the strong like it. Right now, we all have the freedom to stop this insane illogical and unnatural type of society and get back into how nature intends for the ecosystem to thrive. We're the only species that was allowed the 'freedom' to destroy it's planet, that's one freedom we can do without.

Obviously, society conditions you to believe that your life is boring, meaningless, devoid of purpose, and ultimately depressing if you don’t have a JOB or regular employment, as if you were only half a man without one.

Yes, the strongest of society do lead the weak to believe this is the case. It's beneficial to their purpose that everyone stays conditioned to believe this. The weak aren't inherently stupid, their just to weak to fight back. They lack the resources individually because the strong disallow it. Yet if the weak were to realize that they out number the strong, then they could fight against their rules and regulations and become the strong themselves. Honestly, I would hate to see such a thing happen as they are more disease ridden then the stronger of society and it would just ruin the human species even more.

AMERICA
land of the free....
as long as you do whatever the government "suggests"

Here is a thought...and keep in mind it is only a thought...maybe "freedom", unlike the "Hokey-Pokey" isn't what it is all about...

I know that is a pretty controversial thought and runs contrary to everything we are brought up thinking...but like the OP puts forward...from birth to death, we are never really free, we are always to follow someone else's rules...

But that is what civilized society is....order, control, production, thought...

Sure, in some ways, if we were all free it would be great, no one to tell us what to do, we could do what we want to do, be left alone, etc....

But where would that really leave society? Disordered and without purpose?