Big Question: Why are we always controlled yet told we are free?

Hi all,
Something's been bothering me lately.

Why is it that we are all told that this is a free country and that we are all born free with inalienable rights, when in reality, people are always trying to control us and make us conform and become slaves? From the moment we are born, someone is always trying to constantly CONTROL us in some shape or form, and pressure us to CONFORM, whether it be parents, schools, governments, organizations and institutions, corporations we work for, spouses and family, society, etc. using guilt, condemnation and deprivation if we don't comply?

From the moment of birth, there is ALWAYS MASSIVE pressure on us to behave a certain way, follow strict rules and routines, conform to society and your environment, think within a certain box, and be slaves to others in some shape or form. This is true in every stage of life and wherever you go. You can't do what you want to do most of the time are are often forced to do things you don't want. And you are told WHAT to think and believe too, of course (e.g America is free, other countries are not, people are born to be workaholics, you are a loser if you don't have a wage slave job, dissenters are all losers, etc).

And if we don't comply then we face disciplinary measures, are put on guilt trips, and told that there is "something wrong" with us. The pressure to conform to something at every stage of your life is constant and neverending.

When you are born, you are under the total control, care and supervision of your parents. Ok that's necessary, since infants are not autonomous and need to be cared for. But once you enter school, a lifetime of slavery and conformity begin. You are forced to go to school and given no choice in it, where you have to do everything the teacher says, study, do homework, take notes, read stuff assigned, etc. Then when you get home, you are under the constant control of your parents and their strict rules that you have to conform to. When you get to college, you are probably the most free you will ever be, for you don't have to work full time yet, and you can choose your classes or just not go to them at all if you don't want.

(I never understood why so many people in college were in a rush to get out so they can start working, making money and become wage slaves to corporations, rather than just enjoy life, it was like they wanted to be slaves, ick).

Then after college you are forced to enter the world of work, which is basically a private dictatorship where you are a slave 8 or 9 or more hours per day, living under total conformity to your company and under pressure to perform well. It also ties you to one place geographically for the long term, even if you hate where you live. But you have to do this in order to make a living and pay your bills. If you don't, you'll be seen by society and your peers as a loser and degenerate bum, and also you are conditioned by society to feel incomplete, lacking and depressed without a job.

If you just stayed home with your parents and don't work, then you are seen as a total loser by society and your peers.

So again, you can't do whatever you want. There is social pressure to live up to a certain standard and lifestyle, and condemnation if you don't live up to it. If you don't conform to all this, you are told adamantly, "There's something WRONG with you!"

What's really sick is that we are basically conditioned to WANT to become wage slaves and live lives of conformity, obedience and slavery. Somehow we are duped into attaching our personal self-esteem, self-worth and pride to this system. And most people conform this. Few dare challenge it, lest they risk condemnation from their peers, family and society.

(Cont)

And of course, it's really hard to start your own business and be able to make a living from it. Few succeed at it, and even if you do, you still become a slave to your own business. You may own it, but it owns you too. Every possession you have owns you does in fact, for you have an attachment to it, as the Buddhists say.

Then, you are pressured to get married and start a family. And once you do, you have to conform to your spouse's needs and wishes, and that of your family's, after being a slave at work all day. So again, you are bound and can't do whatever you want.

Now, the establishment does their best to make you WANT to conform, to bring your will into alignment with theirs, so to speak. That's the ideal solution to them. But of course, sometimes they fail and that's why we have groups of counterculture hippies around the world. They are tolerated, as long as they don't cause any trouble to the establishment and its system.

If you are lucky, you get to retire with a residual income or pension or 401k or whatever. But the thing is, most people who are able to retire live in First World countries with good economies. Such countries tend to have workaholic cultures and are more into privacy and isolation in their homes, or small cliques. So retirees in such countries will have a hard time finding companionship as most people are busy being slaves to their jobs and families. They can go overseas to countries where there's more to do of course, but few dare to.

So you see, at every stage in life we are unduly pressured to conform, always controlled by others, obey society, become slaves to our jobs, etc. We can't do what we want most of the time.

But what's the point of life then, if you can't do whatever you want? Is being a slave all your life to others better or worse than not existing at all? That's a tough call.

So the big question is: Why are we born as slaves, but told that we are free? It doesn't add up.

WHY are we always told that this is a free country, that we have freedom, democracy and were born with inalienable rights? And why do most people utter all this with patriotic pride as though it were Gospel Truth? It doesn't make sense at all.

It's the ultimate contradiction between action and words, and in this case, a total contradiction.

Is it because people have a need to believe that they are free, even if they are living as slaves their whole lives? If so, why do most people not notice such an obvious and blatant lie?

Perhaps it's because most people are conditioned from birth to WANT to conform. They have a need to belong to something, especially if their egos are undermined by society to feel inadequate.

Plus, people are conditioned to be mostly practical about life, for a good reason. Practical people conform and are easier to control. They tend to believe that the only "practical" and realistic way to live is to submit to authority and conform to society. This is especially true in Asia, where the cultures and populations have an almost purely practical mentality. Thus they live to conform and have no desire not to. It's the ideal situation for the establishment there.

That's why they don't have philosophy classes where they teach you to think for yourself in grade school or high school, only in college.

Is freedom the ultimate lie? If so, why am I the only one who sees this? Is the establishment really that successful in indoctrinating people into wanting to conform? If so, why are there people like me who are immune to brainwashing and always thinking for myself outside the system and outside the box wherever I go?

Of course, thinking these things and asking these kind of questions is taboo. Few ever dare to ask them. Such ways of thinking are a threat to the establishment and their order of things. It is condemned and ostracized.

(Cont)

Let's look at what kind of freedom we have in America. Ok we have freedom of religion. But that exists in most countries (contrary to US propaganda). We have the freedom to go to the mall and choose to buy the things that we want (yipee, like that's not true in every country). And every four years we get to vote for either the Democratic or the Republican Presidential candidate. Both of course, represent establishment interests. The establishment has divided itself into two groups on paper, making it look like there is a variety of representation in government. Whichever candidate wins the election, the establishment wins either way. (Yet we are always slaves, told what to do, and controlled by others all our lives.)

And that's freedom and democracy???

That's like me locking you chained in a dungeon, and whipping you everyday, and giving you a choice whether you want to be whipped by the brown whip or black whip, and calling that your "freedom of choice". lol

Honestly, I don't understand what the purpose of the American Revolutionary War was. I mean, whether it be the British Crown or the local US government, either way you are under constant control and must submit to authority. Freedom from a foreign country means you are only in submission to another governance in your own country. Either way, you are not really free to do what you want. Either way, you still have to constantly conform, submit to authority, and become a wage slave to others. So what's the point?

Same with my other country, Taiwan. In Taiwan the media and people are always talking about keeping their "freedom" from Mainland China. That's the only kind of "freedom" that they know and understand. Yet they never talk about freedom from society's rules and pressures to conform, freedom from jobs, freedom to do what you want, etc. That's the only real freedom. If you can't do what you want, then you aren't truly free. But Taiwanese never see it that way. They seem born to conform. They believe deep down that a person is nothing and incomplete without a wage slave job, which controls your life 10 to 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, and ties you geographically to one area long term. I don't understand it. What difference is it going to make to their lives whether they are governed by Taiwan or China, when either way, they are controlled by others and slaves to work? I think it's more about nationalistic pride to them, than true freedom to do what you want. (But in their case, they want to be workaholics, so they don't see it as an infringement upon their freedom I guess. Whatever. I've never understood them.) It's like a pseudo freedom that they are told they have that really doesn't matter one way or another.

Frankly, I think the freest countries I've been to are in Europe, not because there aren't laws there (of course there are). But because it's the most broad minded, nonjudgmental part of the world I've ever been in. People there don't automatically label you a loser if you don't have a job or aren't a workaholic or don't conform to society. So in that sense, it's freer by comparison.

What do you all think about all these forbidden thoughts?

To me, REAL freedom means that you can do what you want, MOST of the time. But most people do not get to do whatever they want most of the time. Only the very rich or lucky do. Most people have to conform, submit and comply to something or someone in their environment, all their lives. Where is the freedom in that? Seems like a mass big lie.

(Cont)

Another thing is that deep down I'm very disgusted by the fact that EVERYTHING has to always be about money. That's a very very very SICK way to live and operate. But we can't do anything about it, so most people conform to it. I still think it's very sick and dysfunctional and unnatural deep down. That's why I joined the Zeitgeist Movement (www.thezeitgeistmovement.com...), because it's the only movement out there that addresses this in an eloquent scientific manner and provides the best alternatives and solutions to the system.

Anyhow, peace out.

reply to post by WWu777

Hi WWu777.

I have no time to read all your good logics "today".
I will do later. Seems very interesting.

But meanwhile I can only tell you this:
" Our liberty/freedom ends where the liberty/freedom of others begin "
B-)

Blue skies.

There could be no absolute freedom. We are social creatures, and society is always based on some basic defining laws to keep it together.Even if you remove the society boundaries by abandoning it,one can never be free of obligations to himself. Air/water/food/shelter....
Way of life. And as for political freedom as it is thrown back and forward in mass media and by politicians - well it their are not good sources of info.
Political freedom is relative. I am sure that if you live in North Korea or Saudi Arabia for a while and then return to US/Taiwan (not to mention Europe) - you would indeed feel more freedom. But not absolute one.
By the way, how can someone who seeks for freedom join a movement??? It is pretty condracticting the whole idea of personal freedom.

Because "Free" is a sound-byte that people buy into.

The fact of the matter is that every time a government passes a law, it takes away a little more of the freedom of it's people.

The United States has the largest number of laws in the world. Our obsession with the Law boggles even the next most code-inundated nation on the planet, the United Kingdom.

Natural Law only favors the strong. It is for this reason that it is a necessity to have a government of some sort to ensure the inalienable rights of those who aren't the strongest from those that are. Some form of government and law is absolutely necessary to ensure the inalienable rights of all citizens, not just the few.

However, when that government becomes excessive in the number of laws that it enacts to protect a few, the many will suffer and lose part of their freedoms until a point where none of it's citizens are truly free.

Thankfully, true freedom can be found any time in any place, even in the most horrid of conditions, or the most oppressive of times. This personal freedom is something no one can take away from you, even under torture or unto death. This freedom is accessible to all people under all regimes, regardless of their color, race, religion, creed, political affiliation, gender or sexual orientation. The wise know how to obtain this freedom at will. However, this kind of personal freedom ideally should be available in the external world too. That was the premise of our fore-fathers that founded our great Nation.

Unfortunately, the battle-cry of politicians today is "We cannot afford to be Idealistic but have to be Pragmatic". (Don't believe me? Everyone from the US Senate to the White House Cabinet have stated that exact sentence in the last week alone! Dick Cheney even said it this week!) This is simply nothing more than a justification for the surrendering of the Ideals of Freedom, Liberty and Justice for the Pragmatic or practical needs of the Law itself, or for the safety of the people, or to protect the people from an invisible, undefinable enemy (or from themselves).

I guess the majority of people have long since forgotten the words of Benjamin Franklin who once said "Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither. "

If we are told we are free then it must be true, yes?

The Sheep are easily herded by the wolves we hate. Yet those of us, like you and I, who are really birds in a sheep costume, only wish to fly with freedom but a chained to the ground by the sheep around us.

First, I want to tell you that I enjoyed your read, and think you have some very good points and understandable reasoning.

None of us, are truly free. In the U.S. (and other countries) the citizens enjoy freedoms. In the U.S. those freedoms are guaranteed constitutionally, even though they are often tested. This current administration is not the first, nor will be the last that tests the Constitution.

Yes, there is a certain amount of patriotism that some of us attach to the notion of freedoms and rights. As a previous poster said, we cannot be absolutely free and also live with other humans. Human beings have needs and they are either participating in the process of trading goods or services for their needs, or they are recipients of those social services.

I think there are people within the population that cannot provide for themselves, and those people should be provided for and we should all contribute toward these people IF they cannot do so for themselves AND are legally occupying the country.

A true free person would have to take themselves and their wildwood skills to some remote place and make it or die on their own. That is a free person. We are not free to trod upon other peoples rights.

We ARE free to do nothing, earn nothing, free to have no ambition nor compassion for the creatures of the Earth, and we are also free to starve to death because we took no stock in our own destiny.

I don't know how much better it can get for the human situation. Myself being a Conservative with latent Libertarian tendancies, I want less government, and less intrusion, and I want laws and taxes that are applied evenly across the board, be they corporations or citizens or politicians or Hollywood icons.

The U.S. is pretty special in my eyes. Not many places in the world where rights are extended to visitors. There are others, certainly.

Again, enjoyed your perspective. I was in a similar place once. I found myself -- as if by magical transportation -- at rock dead dirt bottom. I had nothing, and worst of all had no regard for myself or my life. I could've trickled a miniscule bit further down and just died. Once I made the decision to take full and absolute responsibility for my own destiny, I never looked back to that place, however I still feel a strong obligation to give others a hand up when I can, because they and I are not so different at all.

cheers friend. Here is where I insert my ongoing signoff ----

Laugh! Your body LOVES endorphins

Ingo Swann discusses the 'box' of reality we live in and how it decreases our potential in ability to read the world around us.

www.youtube.com... kT1AXZzI0y8ILIR623IqA0UXVPCfll7zB_zrS_WTeJ-vz1LvsQ9YQSj6RfP5bhs_M1gWXqvpo0k4CnxGn9Vvzm0OoqyCfhJudGhbmHQdELOuhOy82b6eICsTCl8jbG-VGJxfZhNkXgQeBX4rytTMJ9 K9uDg6VTpmjZQHb68FF6UuFEu8TVHmq79HH8VLdx64Cs08xJkPZPborWGTZTwH74vNEXcmZONEE-nJrO31zesVj6HnAao2Hq1j7G1wpSt4IYfOIVENK4TlUI3Ui9TCmwage5xa20ihaExmYCZ-YSaj KFTKBRDketVOGMp1h0hg7lF2vi_

reply to post by argentus


Great post. I agree. We start out relatively free. But then our bad decisions can strip us of our freedom. If you have debt, dependency, various compulsions, lack of education or skills, etc.. then you are not very free. The thing is to take responsiblity and fix your own shortcomings and find the freedom you long for. Focusing on what you dont have or the imaginary things that are in your way only help to enslave you. Your thinking can be an evil prison.

reply to post by fraterormus


Yet, taking away from the freedoms of the strong to care for the weak has caused an unnatural explosive growth in the human population. To such the effect that our planet can hardly sustain our species now with dwindling food, water, land, and other important resources.

Obviously such a system is a failed system. There are no other species besides us on this planet that will, when push comes to shove, still care for their weak. We are the only one. How or when such a system developed in our species is beyond me, but its demonstratably a failing system.

Now the strong oppress the week and war with each other over what little resources we have available for a population of 6billion+ and growing. It's only a matter of time where caring for the weak will be a thing of the past as society changes and evolves under the coming changes due to lack of resources.

The other failed aspect is the strong insatiable greed for money, which they quickly discovered that if you have the weak do the work, earn the money for you then you only get stronger. The weak, being weak, readily accept this fate and are great full that they are able to earn a meager existence in a society of elite that could really care less about them until they step out of bounds by the rules they put in place.

While it might be nice and all to care for our weak, we do have to look at matters from a more realistic approach. Our planet just simply can not support such a system, this is why nature never evolved such a thing. Greed is the culprit and greed is where we should place our blame. There is no need for the weak to breed and carry on diseased genetic strains deteriorating the human genetic stock, it's just appalling that we allow deterioration of our own species. Is our species really not that valuable to us?

So the strongest of our species invented a form of slavery with a worthless reward system that is ultimately only valuable to the week. Because of such an invention, the weak have been allowed to breed unchecked, leading to the deterioration of the human species genetic stock producing a myriad host of diseases and genetic problems. With such an explosion in the species, we are left with so few resources and a dying planet.

Yes, let's keep giving the weak their freedoms. Natural law dictates only the strongest and fittest are to survive, it's only man's greed that says otherwise. Now look what happened.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
There could be no absolute freedom. We are social creatures, and society is always based on some basic defining laws to keep it together.Even if you remove the society boundaries by abandoning it,one can never be free of obligations to himself. Air/water/food/shelter....
Way of life. And as for political freedom as it is thrown back and forward in mass media and by politicians - well it their are not good sources of info.
Political freedom is relative. I am sure that if you live in North Korea or Saudi Arabia for a while and then return to US/Taiwan (not to mention Europe) - you would indeed feel more freedom. But not absolute one.
By the way, how can someone who seeks for freedom join a movement??? It is pretty condracticting the whole idea of personal freedom.

W: This movement I'm talking about is all for freedom. How does a movement take away my freedom? It doesn't force me to do anything. I don't understand your question. Joining a movement is a volunteer thing, and in concept too, as Zeitgeist is mostly an online movement right now.

The point is, people are always pressuring us to conform to something at every stage of life.

reply to post by fraterormus

Natural Law only favors the strong. It is for this reason that it is a necessity to have a government of some sort to ensure the inalienable rights of those who aren't the strongest from those that are. Some form of government and law is absolutely necessary to ensure the inalienable rights of all citizens, not just the few.

W: I understand that some laws are necessary. But why the constant pressure to conform at every stage of life? First you have to conform to the school and you are told what to think and what to believe. You have to do homework. As an adult, you have to conform to your job and to your corporation. If you don't you are condemned and ridiculed and seen as a loser.

You can't do what you want most of the time, so where's the real freedom?

Ok here's a big question for you all, one that is NEVER discussed, anywhere.

Suppose an adult hasn't worked for years, and lives with his parents, or lives in an apartment funded by his parents. In the eyes of society and his culture, he is a loser. But in real everyday life, he gets up whenever he wants and does whatever he wants, with lots of freedom.

Does he have it better than the typical wage slave who goes to a menial job in a corporation which is a private dictatorship, is in a total rut, yet has conformed to what society says you should do?

One has freedom and the other doesn't. Yet the one that has freedom is considered a loser in society. And the one that doesn't have freedom is living a socially acceptable life.

Is one clearly better than the other? If so why? Or why not?



[edit on 22-5-2009 by WWu777]

Alright, I have a question for someone. Why do we HAVE the freedom to do or not to do?To be cruel or good, to eat or not. It all seems like whatever, and but in the end, no one really cares what we do or become in the long run. why?

There is the freedom of self-mastery and the freedom from being mastered...the thing is, that in the pursuit of self-mastery, individuals pursuing this freedom often infringe on the freedom of others...if we are all to be free from infringement by others, then we may well be infringing on their freedom of self-mastery...this is why we are not free, and cannot be free...

reply to post by WWu777


I tend to think that this hypothetical person you describe is less free, as he or she has limited their choices to sustain themselves from the parent's house. Sort of like commensalism, in that the person is confined to what is presented to them by the parents.

That's no kind of freedom. Sure, they can play, or watch TV or sleep all day. Some choice.

Originally posted by argentus
reply to post by WWu777

 

I tend to think that this hypothetical person you describe is less free, as he or she has limited their choices to sustain themselves from the parent's house. Sort of like commensalism, in that the person is confined to what is presented to them by the parents.

That's no kind of freedom. Sure, they can play, or watch TV or sleep all day. Some choice.

W: But if that's what they WANT to do, then they are free. Plus, what if the parents give him money to travel and do what he wants out there? Or funds whatever lifestyle he wants? He is still a loser for not being independent and supporting himself, but he is having freedom to do what he wants. Is that better?

You see, the "freedom" that the capitalist system boasts about is the freedom to work and make money, to start a business or career. But it assumes that EVERYONE wants to be a workaholic and given a choice prefers to work and make money rather than just enjoy life everyday. So, America offers freedom in that sense, if you are a workaholic and want to be "free to work and become a wage slave (or start a business which is very risky)". So basically it's not freedom to do whatever you want. It's freedom to become a workaholic, wage slave, or entrepreneur (if you have the funds and drive).

To me, that's not freedom, because freedom is being able to do what you want, whether it be working or not working.