A valid point-- how can Republicans be against abortion but be pro-military?

reply to post by JacKatMtn


May I ask what you mean by that comment?

Can't you people tell that I'm just trying to expose the hypocrisy of the abortion debate?

I'm not trying to bait Republicans and get them all upset with an extreme view. I'm just trying to challenge their views.

[edit on 19-5-2009 by Frankidealist35]

As Flyers Fan already touched on, it comes down to a difference between a Government executing something and a individual doing the same thing. God gives authority to a Government to do certain things, including fight a just war, and justly perform capital punishment. The difference is between “Killing” and “Murdering”, if you look at a modern translation of the Bible:

Exodus 20:13 “You shall not murder.”

It cannot be a decision by an individual to take a life, but rather by a government acting in a just fashion:

"For capital punishment to be right, the guilty person would have to be convicted of a real crime in a fair trial, and the punishment would have to be fitting. Both the trial and the punishment would have to be carried out by public authority rather than private vigilantes. Even then it might be better to avoid capital punishment, if there were another way to punish the criminal and to keep him from doing further harm."

God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12, 15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm to the innocent is by going to war.

In the Old Testament, God ordered the Israelites to: “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2). Deuteronomy 20:16-17 declares, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them…as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Also, 1 Samuel 15:18 says, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.” Obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).

I hope this helps.

reply to post by defcon5

Well I don't believe in God or the bible. I'm more of a spiritual kind of person and I don't think there is any supreme being. There is no difference between one human killing another human who is able to defend themselves or one who is defenseless. You're being a murderer all the same. If it's not just it's even worse.

reply to post by Frankidealist35

That may be your view on things, but you asked why it’s that way with the Republicans. Republicans tend to be conservative Christians, by majority, I believe. This is why they allow one thing and not the other.

why do liberals support abortion but not capital punishment? it seems to me like they like killing babies and let murders live their hopeless lives..

how about this. if a fetus isnt a living child, how come when a man kills a pregnant woman, he is charged with double murder?

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
reply to post by groingrinder

 

Wars may ensure big corporations profit but it kills millions of REAL LIVES.

Abortion only kills the unborn.

War kills real people.

Wars kill real people.
Wars kill REAL people?

Babies aren't real people?

Really?

Before, I was baiting you a bit, because I believed that you were being disingenuous to get a good debate going. Playing devils advocate . It offended you and I apoligize for that. (My post was removed by mod. befor I edited it to reflect that)

I just realized that you actually believe this.

Do you think that somebody who wouldn't murder a baby before it is born is showing a weakness by not doing so? Do you think that somebody who refuses to murder unborn children has a problem because these babies are not "real people" and should not be treated as such?

Do you actually think that those same people wouldn't fight to defend the rights of others or to defend their own?

I used to be a republican but cannot reconcile their direction with my beliefs, but I do understand their ideals and intentions. I was a soldier for eight years. I was in the first gulf war when we removed Saddam from Kuwait. I supported that war. I also believe that abortion is murder.
I don't like the idea of killing. I'd much rather keep the peace but sometimes war is necessary. I've got to tell you I don't remember a lot of innocent Iraqi soldiers in Kuwait. They were enemy combatants killing Kuwati citizens. That's why we went in there.

I am also very confident that all babies are innocent. And guess what, contrary to what you seem to think, babies are people. Born and unborn.

Your point of hypocrisy is possibly valid for some of the most extreme peoples views but your logic ie - everybody killed in war is innocent and unborn babies are not real people is pretty offensive in its own right.

Sorry if my extreme views offend you.





[edit on 20-5-2009 by badgerprints]

Framing of an issue. How abortion and RoevWade are framed.

Abortions always have been and always will be. RoevWade made it legal to have a medically safe abortion. Nothing more, nothing less...unless one wants to frame it differently.

Pre RvW, a husband, parent, child, sibling, could come home to find their loved one dying or dead from a botched abortion, either self-induced or by having gone to someone who performed abortions in unsterilized conditions using non-medical procedures, the "back alley" abortionist.

A family member would see their wife, daughter, sister, aunt suffering from massive infection or bleeding to death. Come home to find bloody sheets, bloody bodies, pus and fever. Not a pretty picture. RoevWade made it legal to have a medically safe abortion.

Two major ideas out there now are making the reason for having an abortion rare and making abortion illegal once again. The Republican base chose years ago to be in one camp. Why? For some, anti-abortion had to do with making sure white females continued to have babies, for others the idea that a woman could do something without a man's permission was objectionable, others listened to conservative church leaders talk about killing babies.

Since RvW birth control has become more widespread, which would lessen the need for an abortion in many cases, but some consider bc an abortion, usually for religious reasons, and religion aligned itself to the RP.

reply to post by desert


murder has also always been around.

should some judge rule that murder is now a 'constitutional right' and be protected and safe for murderers to persue their happiness?

should the victims of this persuit have no voice to defend themselves with?

say, why not put abortion to a vote?

why do pro-abortion types pretend that killing unborn human life i anything but just that?

killing a living human?

you mean we cannot 'choose' on the abortion issue after all?

let the people decide, this is a democracy after all, isnt it?

not killing the mot vulnerable humans is the issue. not god, not making women have more babies, etc...

abortion for convenience dwarfs the so called 'health risk' pregnancies, yet they're the ones always brought up when abortion is challenged....

deception, lies and manipulation.

humans killed as sacrifice on the altar of liberal doctrine.

its about the political power, not womens 'health'.

Sigh... anger rises in me. HOw many times did jesus kill a sinner? how many times did he save a sinners life?

How ignorant is any man who thinks he is not killing himself.

I have something else to add.

Pro-life means against abortion. Not the support of life itself.

Pro-choice is not for or against abortion. It is the parents choice.

Pro-life DOESN'T mean we should all live in a happy world where no one kills each other.

It is just a play on words, and there is no hypocrisy (at least here).
Words have different meanings to different people. When speaking politics though, I assume my definition is what 99% of politicians are talking about.

So, this bash against republicans is negative (doesn't make them any brighter though).

Thoughts Frank?

Originally posted by DohBama
how can someone love apples, and yet not be so crazy about oranges?

is this how liberals think?

thats telling...

invalid point.

Bad argument i'm disapointed to see you get so many stars for it.

How many lives do apples and oranges take from this earth ??????


They think it's ok to kill somebody who is alive, but find it unethical to kill somebody who is not yet alive????


Killing is killing.

Originally posted by DohBama

Originally posted by breakingdradles
That's a good point!

Just as liberals have a size limit on animals that have souls and shouldn't be killed, the conservatives have an age limit on who can be killed.

Isn't the whole anti-abortion stance to stop taking a living soul?

[edit on 18-5-2009 by breakingdradles]

no, anti-abortion is to end the killing of innocent human life, for the sake of convenience.

it has nothing to do with religion or the concept of a 'soul'.

additionally, defending ones country is another thing entirely.

killing a threat to our own citizens by terminating the raping murderers preying among us is also, another thing entirely.

everyone up to speed now?

When is the last time we were actually defending our country ? Pearl Harbor ?


We are occupying space in a land not ours. If another country came in with the same idea that that are just protecting their country and they start coming into our houses and taking who they please. killing whoever innocent or guilty , would that not be the same thing??


We are not defending our country.........We are on the offensive.......

There is no army or terrorist at our borders trying to invade our country and take it over.....

We are in their country doing that to them,,,we forced their gov to change.......We use their land regardless if they want us to or not.......


How many Americans die from terrorists every year? Not many

How many die from the Flu ?

How many die from cancer ?

How many die from Swine Flu ?

How many die from HIV and or AIDS ?

How many die from getting hit by cars ?


Scare Tactics.... The GOP can S a big ol D.


I don't believe in parties either. I'm neither liberal or dem or repub. I am me and my views are unique to me and me alone....Just like everyone else.

Originally posted by DarkStormCrow
Your claim that the US intentionally kills civilians is wrong. Having been a soldier and fought in several actions for the US Army I know the great pains that we go throught to avoid civilian casulaties. As a soldier I would much rather force someone into a surrender than have to kill them. I have had both situations prisoners are much more prefered from my point of view.

So all the state terrorism that has murdered untold amounts of innocents with us weapons, supported by us ideology and logistics not to mention sponsored by us tax payers money what...didnt happen?

Originally posted by DohBama

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
Because, according to some of them, killing enemies and terrorists is a good thing. Killing a bunch of cells is a bad thing.

Perspective is strange.

terrorists are too, a "bunch of cells" just like you. and me.

like i said, kill the unborn human = fine.

kill the murdering rapists = not so fine.

behold the liberal thought process.

The difference is not about whether or not they are made of cells...so are trees.
The difference is consciousness, a fetus is not conscious and cannot feel pain and it is easy to argue philosophically that it is not 'alive' as we consider humans to be so.
Its the same argument that validates the destruction of forests and the eating of plants.

And on the note of the death penalty; lets go through this sensibly.
You advocate the death penalty for rapists, so what would you rather if you were a rapist?
To spend a good portion of your life (ideally the rest of it if rehabilitation is unsuccessful) in a cell and getting beaten up and raped yourself, or for your consciousness to just end. No more pain, boredom, no more anything.
The death penalty gives the condemned an easy way out.

Its very simple really...
If your objective is war then you need soldiers. If you kill them before they are born then they will be no good for fighting obviously. All the rest is technical bull# to make sure ignorant people stay the way they are and don't ask too many questions.

I haven't filtered through every reply but it sounds like the OP is equating being "pro-military" with killing? That's where the comparison falls apart. I am pro-military. Any country needs a strong military to keep itself safe. The best offense is a good defense - just ask China and their two hundred million man army. This does not mean I am pro-any war or pro killing. It does mean I am not in favor of sitting around unprepared and defenseless in situations of need.

Have a great Monday!

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
And we do kill several people in war. We've killed far more people in wars than people have died from in abortions.

You have to be kidding me, right??? This comment is a joke, right?

Last year in the US alone, there were 1.2 MILLION abortions. Since they started tracking abortions in the US, there has been 50 million abortions. World wide, there are 46 MILLION abortions a YEAR. You think war has killed more??? Your very naive if you honestly think that!

[edit on 17-6-2009 by Bearack]

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
Doesn't it seem odd to you how Republicans are pro-military intervention around the world yet they are against abortion? They want us to be strong. They don't mind the fact that they kill innocent adults but they hate the idea of abortion because it kills the unborn. But they kill real people and the born when they use military action.

I am not a republican, a christian, and neither pro nor anti abortion.

HOWEVER


An adult human chooses to grab his rifle, his vest and go out and shoot at soldiers. A fetus does not choose to be created, it merely happens. Their point is that the fetus is never given a chance and it's life is snuffed out before it begins, Does this happen to adults? Of course it does.. but can you really not see the difference? Nobody forces that adult to go into battle, a fetus has no choice in the matter.


---

Furthermore, It's obvious to me you know nothing about the military and believe them to be nothing but drones, trained to kill innocent mothers trying to breastfeed their sick children and take care of their decrepit grandparents.


I suspect you are in fact a troll who thinks he's being clever but I still felt the need to say this to anyone who actually believes this diarrhea.




[edit on 26-8-2009 by Raverous]

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Lol spot on. ALL of these christians and none of them even listened to christ.

"Turn the other cheek" and "thou shalt not kill" are optional with their ignorant logic.

That's not what turn the other cheek means It's often taken out of context, but in Roman times the Romans would strike the Israelites with an the back of their hand, they would only strike their equals with their open palm. Jesus said to turn the other cheek to force the Roman soldier to treat you as an equal...remember Jesus saying to carry the Roman's gear the extra mile? Put two and two together It was all about challenging the Roman's morally, Ghandi did a similar thing....

ANYHOW, the Bible is full of war, and I believe the thinking behind supporting military (not just for killing, but for defense) is that you would strike against someone who had done something, by their own choice. A fetus in the womb has no choice, it's just killed...in war both have choices.

I think a bigger hypocrisy are Democrats that support Abortion yet are against capital punishment. It's ok to suck out a babies brain and toss it in the garbage, but it's not ok to kill someone who took the life of another with a sterilized needle.

[edit on 28-8-2009 by yellowcard]

reply to post by Wertdagf


This makes me so angry. A lot of people who call themselves Christians are the opposite - mainly the most powerful, rich and selfish people.

Christ had a bad press when He was on earth and He continues to have a bad press.

It is totally hypocritical to back war and oppose abortion.

Let's kill everyone, or let's not kill anyone - that is the decision everyone needs to make.