A Patriot Father's Dilemma - What would you do?

The Parts highlighted are what the Federal Government is doing.

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation. (Katrina and other situations)

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions. (False Flag)

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

So after everything we have seen for SO LONG, what course of action do you believe is next?


[edit on 17-5-2009 by projectvxn]

Nothing has changed in society from the 1700's onward, only our cages have gotten better looking, with some new prison outfits. Europeans don't get liberty as they have never had it.

Originally posted by bismarcksea
reply to post by Kram09

 

To put it blunt and as nice as I can.....your thoughts from the UK have ZERO relevance on this discussion.

You're only saying that because i gave you a wake up call. I don't recall the OP saying this was an American discussion only. Don't expect much help from anyone with an attitude like that.

You Americans will do nothing. Infact you should have done something already but you haven't. Its all, oh we have lots of shiny guns and we can talk big, but none of you will do anything.

Oh sure there may be some small pockets of resistance, but their will be no coordination and they will be stamped out.

Nobody will go the political route, because i doubt it would even work anyway and seems to me with Americans its always shoot first ask questions later. So anyway good luck with it!

1 - scout 3 minimum locations and stickpile (bury) supplies, in case you can't get to your #1 locale.

scout the lands you will travel and take a walk about to learns the layout/advantage areas and learn ro cover your tracks and improvise if you need to make a weapon with resources around you for food and protection.



incorporate specific signalling calls that distinguish individuals identity and location so you know where and who others are.

Stay calm, prepared and teach your kids some basic knowledge so they have a chance if seperated...have a meeting place designated away from supplies etc....

If you can, plan and capture weapons and supplies that are risk worthy,

and lets focus on the fact that this is last resort that may never need execution.

Keep food high or buried ro ward off animals and thieves.

Malaysia law, dispatch those who are for survival of self rather than the Republic

You get where this is going....

reply to post by Replikant


Thank you for the advice, but I do not think I can leave. This is my country, and I suppose when and if it comes down to the bitter end, I would rather die defending it, even from internal enemies, than go.

My wife and I seriously considered emigration a few years ago. We had the means and we would have been qualified, but we just could not go through with it.

reply to post by bismarcksea


I would just like to disagree with you and say that the British (and others) may indeed have much to contribute to this discussion. The U.K. in particular, home of CCTV's and "knife control" among other totalitarian measures, is a population which has, in my opinion, ceded its ability to defend itself against its government. The British subjects in the U.K. are now at the mercy of their captors, and their imminent surrended to the E.U. will complete Adolf Hitler's mission of subjugation.

That may be more offensive than the original dismissive post, but I would most certainly like to read comments from those who have lost the chance to rebel.

reply to post by dooper


Excellent post as usual, dooper.

I like your idea of not treating the three choices as mutually exclusive. Work for the best, be ready to duck, and prepare for the worst.

reply to post by Grumble


Agree!
I like his phrase, "fighting intelligently".
I would consider myself cowardly, to leave a country for which dooper has made sacrifices on my behalf. I would consider myself unworthy, if I did not try to make this nation better.

I can perfectly respect a large portion of what many are saying, BUT one thing you ALL seem to be forgetting is that we ALL live on this planet together. Most of us have children and even more who don't know those who do. Now with that said, some food for thought.

In many of our countries today there has been a severe loss of community spirit. I am not talking about some political slant or even one based on a left/right paradigm. I am talking about humans helping humans with respect and kindness.

How many of us have taught our children to stop and help that old lady struggling to put her groceries in the car?

If that child falls and we are walking by who among us will bend down pick it up wipe it off and make sure it is Okay before moving on?

How many of us know our neighbors by name and take the time everyday we see them to say hello how are you?

Think about it "how many times" in the last week have "YOU" done at least one of these?

Needing a gun? How about needing to realize that we aren't all in a world of cold hearted bull headed people? That deep down we ALL CARE. But are afraid of being the one to take the first step and let other's see how to behave humanely by EXAMPLE.

It starts at home people...the sooner we figure that one out the better. Because all guns and fighting are going to do is bring about more of the same. The SAME is what we have been struggling to overcome as a society of people with hearts for hundreds of years now.
We are always harping on about how tired we are of war. Yet every time someone has a bone to pick it is get up and fight. NOT get up and lead by an example of community love and respect for one another. YOU want this to change...then CHANGE the way you REACT. Enough said!

reply to post by SchefSalad


I struggle with how to answer your basic question regarding whether the fight is justified, and I think it is a separate issue (off topic), so I started another thread ( Another Patriot Father's Dilemma - Is the fight justified? ).

I think it is a valid question you raise, so please respond there.

EDIT: xoxo stacie, your comments would also fit in that thread. Thanks.



[edit on 17-5-2009 by Grumble]

How about option 4:

Make use of the capability of the internet to bring like minded people together. By "together" I mean physically, quit the blabbering, complaining, and moaning and groaning to each other on the internet. Decide on a location within the continental U.S., sell your home, quit your job, pull up roots, and converge on a state, county, or town and move there in droves. Gathering together in one location and using the political force gained by doing so is the only way anything will ever change at this point. Strategic retreat to a defensible position. The bureaucracy at all levels is out of control and determined to keep you under its thumb and keep YOU paying their salaries while they sit and do nothing but create more headaches for you. It has for years been out of control and with the current administration it has attained the strength to make us all slaves. The one thing that probably would kill even that plan is the refusal by most people to ever understand that it is impossible to legislate morality. Morality MUST be taught.

My opinion is the U.S. and most of the west has committed "Cultural Suicide" that has reached the point of no return. Only a few countries like the Netherlands, and Switzerland have realized the error and are attempting to return to their cultural roots and I doubt they have acted quick enough to avert disaster.

reply to post by xoxo stacie


YES!

A smile/nod to a stranger, even if it goes unreturned.
lol I'm thinking of how I pulled up next to a really neat fixed up classic pu truck. Now this guy had put so much work into making that truck look great. As we were stopped for the light, I looked over, smiled, and mouthed something like "neat truck!" He smiled back and nodded.

You probably couldn't find any more two people different in outer looks, but we both connected on something. He appreciated my appreciating his truck.

Last year I had a flat tire on the way home from work. I was so close to home, so I called my husband. As I stood by my car, drivers passed by, then one car passed by and turned around and came back. The two young men inside sure "looked" frightening lol...I had never seen so many piercings and such. They asked if I needed help, I said thanks but help was on the way, and they said they would wait until it arrived. So they sat across the street until my help arrived, then waved to my husband and me as they drove off.

On Mother's Day I was out on my balcony shaking out a dust cloth. I heard two women on the lawn below. I wished them a Happy Mother's Day. They looked up, smiled, and were happy to tell me the same, and asked how my day was going.

We've lost basic civility/manners in this country, let alone "being nice". Being sensible about our safety and the safety of our loved ones is one thing, but we should not let fear drive us apart, let it stop us from being civil, or being used as an excuse to not be civil.

As it was once said, it's easy to be good to those who do good to you, but it's harder to be good towards those who hate you. Being good is not all about collecting smiley faces; some of the faces we get in return might be blank stares or frowns.
That's their problem they have to deal with; and that is why forgiveness is needed, just as we need to be forgiven when we only offer back a frown or blank stare.

Stacie and desert, I do not disagree with your ideas in general, but you are missing the point of the thread. The assumption here is that tyranny is coming. Then answer my question.



But, to address your points outside the context of this thread, I will just ask you this. The Nazis are sweeping your neighborhood for dissidents, Jews and other enemies of the state. When they come to your door, Lugars drawn, do you give them flowers and tell them to have a nice day? If you do, you are complicit in their atrocities.

But, to address your points outside the context of this thread, I will just ask you this. The Nazis are sweeping your neighborhood for dissidents, Jews and other enemies of the state. When they come to your door, Lugars drawn, do you give them flowers and tell them to have a nice day? If you do, you are complicit in their atrocities.

ofcourse you dont comply...you put a slug in their head.
atleast you went down trying.
or you could go ahead and board the cattle train.
This has happened before and it really wasnt all that long ago.

[edit on 17-5-2009 by helltick]

reply to post by xoxo stacie

xoxo, I mean no reproach in this response, but to instruct.

You limit a man. You have preconceived notions of a man, his capabilities, and his tendencies.

I can look at my hands, scarred, proven strong, and I can remember. These same hands have caressed a child to sleep. They delivered a baby as I was scared to death and had no idea what I was doing, tying off the umbilical cord with a boot lace.

One hand held a man dangling from a helicopter, tearing ligaments in that shoulder, while firing a weapon with the other.

They have been covered in blood many times, and have shed blood many times. Sometimes the blood they were bathed in was the blood of foes, sometimes the blood of dear brothers in arms.

One use does not limit the other. There is a time for all things. Normally, a time for peace, work, and sharing. But when called for, when the bad behavior of others is thrust upon innocents, these hands are skilled to their destruction.

When children fall out of line, MEN pick them up. MEN will carry them. MEN will shield them. MEN will feed them. MEN will clothe and bathe them. MEN will teach them. MEN will guide them. MEN will kill to protect them.

Not all males are MEN. Might as well get that one out of the way quickly.

As others, I've worn many hats in my time, and God willing, I'll wear even more. I'm not completely destructive, I'm not completely giving. I consider myself more complete than those who have never experienced one or the other.

I'm not alone, not by a damned sight. Many men are just like me. Reasonably good, peaceful men, right up until the time comes to not be.

AND, we know the difference.

Can I not be a kind, gentle, sharing person with good people, and if required, be a living nightmare for those who would do innocents harm? For no reason?

Besides, both dogs and small children take to me at first meetings.

The very best judges of character, I might add.

Exactly Dooper....

There are sooooo many that will never understand what you so eloquently said just now, and I'm not convinced that they should....no disrespect to any that cannot understand your point....There ARE many like you out here and we WILL do what needs doing...BTW, I'm right with you on the kids and dogs as the best judges of character...

[edit on 17-5-2009 by RolandBrichter]

So just a question are you tea baggers suggesting a civil war? I'm thinking that any real patriotic american would never want to turn a gun on a fellow american. And you that are talking about guns and # are the ones who are talking violence. Not once has any public ofical said "Yeah right now ive got a stockpile of guns in my backyard so that when the rightwingers finally attack we can kill them. You know just in case." The only people suggesting a violent approach is you people. Instead of working together to come up with a solution for out problems we come up with ideas of how best to make sure the opposition is out of the way. Opposing view points are what make this country what it is. This way every perspective is considered. "Protesting is American no matter where it comes from, revolution ehh not so much" - Jon Stewart
What you people need to do is just continue to protest with signs and # thats what Bush haters did for eight years now its your turn. get ready for fun. Sure you may not accomplish a god damn thing but thats all you can do make your voice heard. Once you suggest violence you have become a domestic terrorist. Just food for thought.

reply to post by SchefSalad


Those that stand against the Bill of Rights and the Constitution are not Americans. When it comes right down to it, no guns will be turned against Americans.

reply to post by SchefSalad

My people fought against the law of the land when we decided to become an independent republic.

My people fought again in the War of Northern Aggression.

Now what in hell do you think I'm going to do if and when the Federal government either declare martial law or abrogate my current level of rights?

Can't help it.

This Constitutional thing runs in my blood.

reply to post by SchefSalad


My suggestion is to find a "teabagger" near you, and make him your best friend. I say this because you are going to need somebody to protect you, since, by your words, you most likely won't last through the first 3 minutes without help when the balloon goes up.

Try to pick one without kids. No point in putting someone else's kids in jeopardy, just because you wouldn't defend yourself against what's coming, and prefer to TALK 'reason' against unreasonable elites.

While you're busy talking, others will step into the breach on your behalf.

nenothtu out