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Originally posted by sos37
Perhaps this underscores what I've said all along about these detainees - maybe the government knows something about them that we don't that they cannot reveal to the public. Perhaps now that Obama is in office and privy to that information he now "gets it", he now understands why GWB did what he had to do. Perhaps Obama is now going to do likewise.
If my Constitution meant anything and I am an American born and raised NO, HELL NO does the President and the Government have the right or the power to withhold the truth of any of it's actions from me a citizen of the Republic.
Did you go to that list of detainees I linked? There are several that have been convicted, which implies they went through the court process somewhere, and quite a few have been repatriated. I don't know why you think it only counts if they go through our court system. If their home country wants to do it, or is willing to accept them, then why not? It would get them all through the system that much quicker.
So everything they ever do or think about doing should be common knowledge? That's an awfully big request that would endanger every single person in this country as well as every citizen who is overseas for whatever reason. Would you really want them telling everyone what their plans are as far as troop deployments or missions go? Would you really want them telling everyone what their plans are when it comes to security measures? Have you taken the time to consider all the implications that them telling everyone the complete truth about everything?
There are some things that we don't need to know as civilians. We don't need to know every mission the troops are on, we don't need to know every route they are going to take. We don't need to know if they have facial recognition in every airport to catch people on the no-fly list. We don't need to know who they have undercover or where they are undercover or what they are trying to accomplish by being undercover. And the list goes on and on.
I could literally sit here all day listing things we don't need to know. We may want to know, but in reality we don't really need to know. Can you even imagine what would have happened during either WWI or WWII if the government had made it a point to tell everyone what they were planning to do? I can almost guarantee you we wouldn't be sitting here talking about this right now. Sometimes it is completely necessary for the government to not tell us everything. It's our job as citizens to get the right people in office and it's their job to do the right thing. If they're screwing it up it's because the citizens voted the wrong people into office.
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
If they have been convicted by other countries why is America the one that detained them?
Why do my tax dollars have to pay for something the burden of proof by American standards has not met to establish I must pay?
The why not is of course, we are waging two costly wars based on the supposition that these men are truly a threat that is not only worth them being incarcerated to a lesser standard of proof than the Constitution requires but violent reprisals are killing, maiming, and destroying the lives of innocent men, women and children in that action.
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
The people of the United States of America is it’s moral conscience, not the Government
I do not believe they ever met the lawful standard of proof to deploy troops.
I frankly do not understand why any one who is truly an American without a religious agenda who does not suffer from racism...
When Columbian Cocaine Kingpins commit conspiracies ... we provide proof that a crime as occurred on American Soil and wait for the Columbians to apprehend them and extradite them
So no all you are advocating is a bigoted religious war based on paranoia and xenophobia
even when the Taliban said it would apprehend and extradite Bin Laden if we provided the same standard of proof that Columbia requires us when charging one of its citizens with a crime.
Taliban Renegs on Offer to Extradite Bin Laden
Tuesday, April 03, 2001
Afghanistan's ruling Taliban militia will not extradite suspected terrorist Osama bin Laden to any country, including one that would try him under Islamic law, a Taliban spokesperson was quoted as saying yesterday
on just about anyone and everyone who wasn’t involved including the American people.
Get some self respect, and show some backbone and stop acting like citizens of the U.S.S.R. is all I can say to any fellow American who is taking a commercial airline anywhere and being humiliated in this fashion.
Civilian oversight is crucial unless you want to have a Nazi Homeland Security Department
Wake up please and read some real History. We were tricked into fighting World War I so badly we refused to ratify the Treaty of Versailles and the League of Nation
I have an inalienable right to say these things, request these things and demand these things. Honesty and fairness and transparency in my government, that they follow the Constitutional principals and laws they were sworn to uphold and that they not terrorize me into giving up my rights in order to protect me from a war they have yet to prove we should be fighting.
You want to know why we have a terrorism problem. We don’t follow our own Constitutional principals and frankly I do believe Israel carried out 9-11 and not the 19 Saudis that they allege and I do believe our own Government was complicit in it and I have an inalienable right to say that too until my Government follows the rule of law and establishes the proof that they are right which they have failed to do.
Start local worry about the rest of the world later and we won’t have a Terrorist problems
Does it really matter who detained them? Would it make it somehow different if they were detained by England or France? The list does not say who convicted them, only that some of them have been convicted.
If you don't like where your tax dollars go, don't vote for anyone who currently holds or has held a government position and get the word out to others not to do so either. As it stands the people in office were elected, so the root of the problem lies in those who voted for those people.
So can you prove that none of them were or are a threat? The Constitution states:
It was written by Americans for Americans. It is only valid in the US. And nowhere in the Constitution is a standard of proof mentioned. Due process is, standard of proof is not.
Then perhaps the people should be more selective in who they vote into office rather than voting the same people back in every election. Perhaps if they lost their positions the next person elected wouldn't make the same mistakes and it would not be an issue any longer.
Congress approved it, so apparently they thought it was the right thing to do. It's too late to worry about whether or not we should go, the decision has been made and the consequences must be dealt with. We shouldn't be in Iraq, I've said that from the start. Unfortunately my opinion doesn't amount to squat with the members of Congress. Our options have been rather limited, but the new government thinks they are ready to stand on their own without any help from us and I say more power to them. It takes time for a new government to settle into it's role and I'd much rather we stayed and helped than left and let them be taken over by the first organized group that came along. We made the mess, we should help clean it up.
So it takes racism, a religious agenda, or not being a true American to not demand to know everything?
Because we have extradition treaties with Columbia and Mexico, as well as the entire South American continent. We aren't particularly worried about whether or not they will extradite people because of that. The same cannot be said of Afghanistan, you know that place we were originally supposed to be going before we got sidetracked with Iraq.
Man are you barking up the wrong tree. I've never advocated this or any other war. And I fail to see where you are getting that it is bigoted, religious, or xenophobic.
You mean this offer? The one they reneged on in 2001 before 9/11?
The wars were supposed to be an effort to dismantle al Qaeda, the Taliban, and capture Bin Laden. That doesn't sound like "everyone who wasn't involved" to me.
It's not my no-fly list, it's the governments and the airlines. Not everyone is poked and prodded every time they fly, and many don't mind taking off their shoes and walking through a metal detector because everyone has to do it for the safety of everyone on the planes. It's not a lack of backbone, it's a choice of personal safety over refusing to take off your shoes. Despite the opinion of some, not everyone is strip-searched before getting on a plane.
Yes it is, and part of that oversight is not re-electing the people causing the problems. Oversight doesn't mean that we need all the details of everything, especially not when the entire world has access to any and everything the government releases. The last thing we need is to give information to the enemy when it comes to our military, our assets, or our security.
You've missed my point entirely. It doesn't matter how we got into the war, it doesn't matter that we were tricked. Facts are we got sucked in and fought in it but we didn't give all our secrets away to the enemy either.
Israel is an ally. Why on earth would an ally be behind 9/11?
Yeah because we went and flew buildings into their buildings and killed thousands of their people. That's what made them hate us. Because we attacked them first.
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
“The devil is in the details” of course it matters. It especially matters to people who see their citizenship as a responsibility and the vote that goes along with one too. So someone was convicted of a parking ticked in France who is originally from Uruguay who read a book about not paying parking tickets written in Greenland…so let’s bomb Greenland!
First off I don’t vote; well not since Mondale ran for President. Second off I do encourage others not to vote.
a personal friend ... turned out to be one of the leading Powers that Be
Nothing is going to change through the voting process.
So once again why are Columbian Drug Kingpins or people like Manuel Noriega innocent until proven guilty in an American Court of Law when they are brought before one.
Sadly my government can not prove any of them were a threat ...
What kind of circular logic ...
So we attack Afghanistan and Iraq to rectify this problem. It was a criminal conspiracy carried out allegedly by 19 Saudis who weren’t sponsored by anyone’s government.
8 years later we haven’t even accomplished objective one
As I have said Americans have lost all common sense.
Jenna all the world is a stage and well if you look up the legal definition of a person it is an actor wearing a mask.
The City of Washington D.C. is an official City/State not bound by the laws of the 50 states in the Union.
Article One of the United States Constitution provides for a federal district, distinct from the states, to serve as the permanent national capital.
Further I would like to point out that you are pushing blame and responsibility away from the government on to the people that clearly have no control in Government or over the Government.
Yes we did make the mess and we should help to clean it up. ... The people throw them right out as soon as we leave.
If we respected the people there, listened to the people there, weren’t looking to make a buck there, and corrupt the whole process, the places would be stable by now, they were stable before we went in to them.
We aren’t supposed to be the world’s policeman and we wouldn’t appreciate anyone attempting to do it to us, and if we are going to be the world’s policeman it better lead to fair charges, open courts of law, with public oversight before we condemn and sentence them and obviously that hasn’t happened either.
Either that or laziness, a low IQ, a genuine lack of responsibility, lack of common sense or a general apathy and disinterest towards something called the Right to Self Determination.
The Taliban offered to Extradite Osama Bin Laden if we would provide proof ... How come the FBI hasn’t charged Bin Laden with 9-11?
Explain the long standing ties with the Bin Laden and Bush families ...
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
It’s got to be something motivating your desire to avoid wanting to see real proof that there is any reason for us to be attacking these two countries for something that 19 Saudis are alleged to have done that have never been charged with the crime, tried or convicted of it.
You are just avoiding that fact, to avoid that fact then and would appreciate it if a Watts Street Gang carried out a violent act in Japan and 8 years later Japan was still bombing your family and friends for it here in the United States and patrolling your street corners?
This sounds like a bad case of “Honey but the man on the phone told me I had won the vacation...
That looks like a retraction of offer not an offer to me Jenna, try posting all the “Great Decider Rhetoric” along with the original offer, and don’t quit your day job to go into the propaganda business in the meantime!
Wow pretty nice of the CIA to get all those outfits going to begin with, blame an uninvestigated crime on them with hastily put together evidence for a trial by TV that’s so flimsy they can’t take it to court ...
Hey guess what in all my years in the Travel Business I could get to an airport 15 minutes before the flight and never get poked and prodded...
Just ask them for an electronic tracking chip if it makes you feel safer!
I personally believe I have an inalienable right to know everything that happens in the Universe and do not cotton on those with hidden agendas and a need to know basis.
Especially not a government that is supposed to represent me and see to my quality of life and security
Heaven forbid we find out in that processes they aren’t and never were our enemy and apologize make amends and friends.
The Muslims had everything to loose in attacking us, the Israelis had everything to gain in making it look like Muslims attacked us.
Once again it is common sense.
Once again it hasn’t been established and the reality is there is even more circumstantial evidence pointing to the Israelis and the CIA than there is to the Muslims, that’s why they can’t bring these people to trial.
We don’t apply our foreign policy even or fairly and it’s cost a lot of lives in the Islamic world
We look like hypocritical fools to the rest of the world because we are so blinded by propaganda, distortions of the truth, omissions of the truth, and religious bigotry and racism.
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Its a lot of circular logic you are employing Jenna.
Your debate focuses on the frail supposition that two wrongs egual a right.
The frightening thing is that you don't see how the "Bomb them if we think they are Al Queda or Taliban" is in fact the same "I don't agree with how some people think, live and react" argument that you favor as justification for bombing them in the first place.
Your only high ground comes from the circular logic that you employ
Logical responses would be the unrellenting pursuit of peace, diplomacy and dialouge to address every real point of contention that exists between two parties and to keep looking for a shared understanding through a series of give and take compromises that form the back bone of any functional reliationship.
If someone 'thinks' from 15,000 feet in the air based on Satellite Photos that provided the 'idea' that someone is Taliban or Al Queda that is all the proof you want or need to drop a bomb on them from 15,000 feet in the air and their wife, children, belongings.
It's the meek that inherit the earth and they don't become meek by killing one another off.
You want to blame everyone else for not doing this and not doing that while you promote the ideal that we should live in fear instead of seeking peace, that we should kill everyone and anything that does not agree with us or we don't agree with how they handle their backyards and worlds and amazingly you see this as a solution, a difference in what you are advocating eliminating because it is 'morally' wrong and a high road.
In the meantime you want not 'better' or 'truer' information, you don't think you need to know that and you don't think anyone else does either.
In the meantime you simply refute people who are armed with factual information that don't allow for your circular logic as being liars or incorrect or naive.
Further you haven't wiped out the Taliban as they are ressurging and logically would when the people from which they come from are under constant indiscriminate violent and deadly bombardment.
You favor a genocide approach for some people while decying those who commit genocide against another people.
Like most war mongering people ruled by their emotions instead of logic and a passion for knowledge and truth you point to the bankrupting failure in economics and morals of what you advocate as simply "We haven't gotten to do this enough yet or to the wholy murderous extent we should for it to really work"
You are in fact no different than your so called enemy in your murderous thinking but simply believe because you wish to murder
It's all just about imposing what you imagine is right in a quest for dominance and because you imagine your right you can't imagine why anyone who seeks peace, truth and knowledge is as wise.
These silly wars where some simple diplomacy and trials would do far more to educated, enlighten and move people towards peace have in fact already bankrupted and destroyed our nation, both economically, constitutionally and morally.
I hope your little killing fest is worth it to you Jenna, its going to take a long long time to tally up all the things that were good that died in that process.
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I will tell you what they can't reveal to the public. Gitmo is a terrorist training school run by the United States of America in order to keep the War on Terror going.