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Obama mulls 'indefinite detention' of terror suspects

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posted on May, 14 2009 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by sos37
Perhaps this underscores what I've said all along about these detainees - maybe the government knows something about them that we don't that they cannot reveal to the public. Perhaps now that Obama is in office and privy to that information he now "gets it", he now understands why GWB did what he had to do. Perhaps Obama is now going to do likewise.


I've been wondering that myself lately. I find it hard to believe that they have kept all those people detained for no reason other than they could. The problem is that if there is something they can't reveal to the public, they can't exactly come out and say there is or they will be flooded with demands for documents and information about what it is they can't reveal. So there could be something but they can't tell us that there is without revealing what it is. Hard as it may be for some to believe, not everything needs to be public knowledge.




posted on May, 14 2009 @ 01:23 PM
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I will tell you what they can't reveal to the public. Gitmo is a terrorist training school run by the United States of America in order to keep the War on Terror going.

They take the most influential and connected zealots and extremists none of which are involved in 9-11 but all of whom are involved in extremist doctrine and orginizations founded to fight against what they percieve as Wester injustices brought on by adherence to Western Principals and religions that they view as being unfavorable to them gaining equal treatment and consideration in an International Body and form of International Government administered by the United Nations that does not often protect them or give them the same considerations as Western, Judean, Christian nations.

We are constantly rounding up lesser players off the battle fields in Afghanistan, and Iraq to ship them to Gitmo to be schooled and trained in captivity by the Extremist Elite of these Movements we hold in indefinate captivity for the sole purpose of educating these lesser zealots and warrior activists the shared doctrine that these extremist groups espouse and how to contact these groups for logistical support, and coordination.

Just like we created the Taliban which was the Mujadeen to fight the Soviets we create all these movements in a process to create a one world order through divisions that require bloodshed to resolve and in so doing taking advantage of a divide and conquer form of warfare that has ruled the planet for 10,000 years.

If my Constitution meant anything and I am an American born and raised NO, HELL NO does the President and the Government have the right or the power to withhold the truth of any of it's actions from me a citizen of the Republic.

I don't need those kinds of favors and I don't want those kinds of favors because I am hear to tell you that's no favor at all.

8 years later not one person charged, let alone tried, let alone convicted in an American Court of Law that my friends is Water Gate on Steroids taken to the umpteenth power.

All we have too is bankruptcy, loss of life, and seething hatred running rampant as a result.

I would like to protect myself and my children and friends and loved ones from that.

We have a Terrorist Government that terrorizes us by creating a culture of Terror thoughout the world by Terrorizing it, and does it in a way that every Constitutional principal is ignored.

If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck it is a duck.

You can pretend it's a golden goose all you want but do me a favor and show me the money and the gold...

Because I sure don't see any.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 02:27 PM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


Did you go to that list of detainees I linked? There are several that have been convicted, which implies they went through the court process somewhere, and quite a few have been repatriated. I don't know why you think it only counts if they go through our court system. If their home country wants to do it, or is willing to accept them, then why not? It would get them all through the system that much quicker.

Those are some awfully big claims you're making. Care to back up any of the claims that Gitmo is really a terrorist training camp?



If my Constitution meant anything and I am an American born and raised NO, HELL NO does the President and the Government have the right or the power to withhold the truth of any of it's actions from me a citizen of the Republic.


So everything they ever do or think about doing should be common knowledge? That's an awfully big request that would endanger every single person in this country as well as every citizen who is overseas for whatever reason. Would you really want them telling everyone what their plans are as far as troop deployments or missions go? Would you really want them telling everyone what their plans are when it comes to security measures? Have you taken the time to consider all the implications that them telling everyone the complete truth about everything?

There are some things that we don't need to know as civilians. We don't need to know every mission the troops are on, we don't need to know every route they are going to take. We don't need to know if they have facial recognition in every airport to catch people on the no-fly list. We don't need to know who they have undercover or where they are undercover or what they are trying to accomplish by being undercover. And the list goes on and on.

I could literally sit here all day listing things we don't need to know. We may want to know, but in reality we don't really need to know. Can you even imagine what would have happened during either WWI or WWII if the government had made it a point to tell everyone what they were planning to do? I can almost guarantee you we wouldn't be sitting here talking about this right now. Sometimes it is completely necessary for the government to not tell us everything. It's our job as citizens to get the right people in office and it's their job to do the right thing. If they're screwing it up it's because the citizens voted the wrong people into office.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 04:21 PM
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reply to post by Jenna
 





Did you go to that list of detainees I linked? There are several that have been convicted, which implies they went through the court process somewhere, and quite a few have been repatriated. I don't know why you think it only counts if they go through our court system. If their home country wants to do it, or is willing to accept them, then why not? It would get them all through the system that much quicker.


If they have been convicted by other countries why is America the one that detained them? Why do my tax dollars have to pay for something the burden of proof by American standards has not met to establish I must pay?

The why not is of course, we are waging two costly wars based on the supposition that these men are truly a threat that is not only worth them being incarcerated to a lesser standard of proof than the Constitution requires but violent reprisals are killing, maiming, and destroying the lives of innocent men, women and children in that action.

I resent very much that I have these lives and blood on my hands and pay for it in my tax dollars without ever having been given the proof that these people are deserving of such wholesale damage to innocent people in a process that is as sloppy as it is deadly as it lacks conscience and morals.

The people of the United States of America is it’s moral conscience, not the Government determining what the conscience of the people should be by withholding information and lying to them to force the citizenry to accept the Government’s actions are moral when the government denies us the information and proof that they possibly could be moral.




So everything they ever do or think about doing should be common knowledge? That's an awfully big request that would endanger every single person in this country as well as every citizen who is overseas for whatever reason. Would you really want them telling everyone what their plans are as far as troop deployments or missions go? Would you really want them telling everyone what their plans are when it comes to security measures? Have you taken the time to consider all the implications that them telling everyone the complete truth about everything?


Jenna I think you miss the point. I do not believe they ever met the lawful standard of proof to deploy troops. It is prosecuting these trumpet up secretive charges through wholesale slaughter and warfare that kills far more innocent civilians than it does combatants that jeopardizes us all and leads to the abdication of demands for proof to establish such inhumane actions by substituting bigoted hatred, fear and paranoia. I frankly do not understand why any one who is truly an American without a religious agenda who does not suffer from racism would possibly in a million years not want to see the government’s proof which even when given to Senators in closed hearings led them to utter expletives regarding it’s veracity when they were first told it.

When Columbian Cocaine Kingpins commit conspiracies in America that result in the death of far more many American lives than 9-11 and have cost far more economic damage than 9-11 initially did before all the costly wars, we don’t start dropping bombs on Cartagena, Bogota, or Medellin we provide proof that a crime as occurred on American Soil and wait for the Columbians to apprehend them and extradite them using their own legal apparatus and then we bring them here to trial REGARDLESS of what the Columbian Courts have convicted them of in the meantime or before.

So no all you are advocating is a bigoted religious war based on paranoia and xenophobia where the Government lies and keeps secrets from the citizens to once again use a double standard that allows Christian Columbia to enjoy a far more lax set of rules, privileges and Safeguards because that is our real Constitutional Process, than Muslim Afghanistan even when the Taliban said it would apprehend and extradite Bin Laden if we provided the same standard of proof that Columbia requires us when charging one of its citizens with a crime.




There are some things that we don't need to know as civilians. We don't need to know every mission the troops are on, we don't need to know every route they are going to take. We don't need to know if they have facial recognition in every airport to catch people on the no-fly list. We don't need to know who they have undercover or where they are undercover or what they are trying to accomplish by being undercover. And the list goes on and on.


I agree as Civilians we should never need to know our own Government will not follow the Constitution and establish the prerequisite burden of proof to establish true guile before trillions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives are spent all over the world in a new jerk reaction to extradite a convenient revenge on just about anyone and everyone who wasn’t involved including the American people.

As far as your no fly list, I have my own no fly list, it includes me and all the members of my family because I was not born or raised in Israel or an environment of State Sponsored Fear were I will pay for a service to a company like an airline and then be treated like a common criminal and piece of livestock to be herded, inspected, prodded and branded just to do it. I have something called self respect, and my forefathers didn’t fight bravely in wars for us to all cower at home. Get some self respect, and show some backbone and stop acting like citizens of the U.S.S.R. is all I can say to any fellow American who is taking a commercial airline anywhere and being humiliated in this fashion.

Civilian oversight is crucial unless you want to have a Nazi Homeland Security Department, a Patriot Act that encourages you to give up the rights Patriots fought and died for when it’s the least Patriotic thing an American could actually do and secret courts like FISA. That is not the United States and I would gladly die a violent death a free man than a slow one as a slave to fear and an all intrusive government.




I could literally sit here all day listing things we don't need to know. We may want to know, but in reality we don't really need to know. Can you even imagine what would have happened during either WWI or WWII if the government had made it a point to tell everyone what they were planning to do? I can almost guarantee you we wouldn't be sitting here talking about this right now. Sometimes it is completely necessary for the government to not tell us everything. It's our job as citizens to get the right people in office and it's their job to do the right thing. If they're screwing it up it's because the citizens voted the wrong people into office.


Wake up please and read some real History. We were tricked into fighting World War I so badly we refused to ratify the Treaty of Versailles and the League of Nation when President Wilson found out about how badly we were duped when all the side deals and back room deals came out on the table at Versailles, then we got cheated out of having all the money and weapons we gave France and England on Credit by the Treaty that demanded a Bankrupt Germany pay us back on their behalf, which led to a Bankrupt United States and the beginning of the Security State the erosion of our Constitutional way of life and an orchestrated way to ensure World War II would have to be fought.

I have an inalienable right to say these things, request these things and demand these things. Honesty and fairness and transparency in my government, that they follow the Constitutional principals and laws they were sworn to uphold and that they not terrorize me into giving up my rights in order to protect me from a war they have yet to prove we should be fighting.

You want to know why we have a terrorism problem. We don’t follow our own Constitutional principals and frankly I do believe Israel carried out 9-11 and not the 19 Saudis that they allege and I do believe our own Government was complicit in it and I have an inalienable right to say that too until my Government follows the rule of law and establishes the proof that they are right which they have failed to do.

You are fighting the War Against Terror that’s it’s official name Americans though fight wars FOR something, like for our Constitution, for our principals, for fair play, liberty and justice for ALL. Start local worry about the rest of the world later and we won’t have a Terrorist problems and the Israelis playing us like a fiddle and milking it for everything it’s worth.




[edit on 14/5/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 04:41 PM
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It's funny you don't see the usual Democrats of ATS here to defend Obama on this decision like they do with every other decision he's made. Was this part of the change they could believe in or not? I curious to hear about that.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 05:08 PM
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Yeah Obama is letting me down

before election "yes we will close guantanamo bay and we are going to Change!"

after election "Yes we are closing guantanao bay and we are going to Change...its location. LOL"

This is not the kind of change i had in mind. Now im going to buy a new not my president shirt.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
If they have been convicted by other countries why is America the one that detained them?


Does it really matter who detained them? Would it make it somehow different if they were detained by England or France? The list does not say who convicted them, only that some of them have been convicted.


Why do my tax dollars have to pay for something the burden of proof by American standards has not met to establish I must pay?


If you don't like where your tax dollars go, don't vote for anyone who currently holds or has held a government position and get the word out to others not to do so either. As it stands the people in office were elected, so the root of the problem lies in those who voted for those people.


The why not is of course, we are waging two costly wars based on the supposition that these men are truly a threat that is not only worth them being incarcerated to a lesser standard of proof than the Constitution requires but violent reprisals are killing, maiming, and destroying the lives of innocent men, women and children in that action.


So can you prove that none of them were or are a threat? The Constitution states:


We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


It was written by Americans for Americans. It is only valid in the US. And nowhere in the Constitution is a standard of proof mentioned. Due process is, standard of proof is not.


The people of the United States of America is it’s moral conscience, not the Government


Then perhaps the people should be more selective in who they vote into office rather than voting the same people back in every election. Perhaps if they lost their positions the next person elected wouldn't make the same mistakes and it would not be an issue any longer.


I do not believe they ever met the lawful standard of proof to deploy troops.


Congress approved it, so apparently they thought it was the right thing to do. It's too late to worry about whether or not we should go, the decision has been made and the consequences must be dealt with. We shouldn't be in Iraq, I've said that from the start. Unfortunately my opinion doesn't amount to squat with the members of Congress. Our options have been rather limited, but the new government thinks they are ready to stand on their own without any help from us and I say more power to them. It takes time for a new government to settle into it's role and I'd much rather we stayed and helped than left and let them be taken over by the first organized group that came along. We made the mess, we should help clean it up.


I frankly do not understand why any one who is truly an American without a religious agenda who does not suffer from racism...


So it takes racism, a religious agenda, or not being a true American to not demand to know everything?


When Columbian Cocaine Kingpins commit conspiracies ... we provide proof that a crime as occurred on American Soil and wait for the Columbians to apprehend them and extradite them


Because we have extradition treaties with Columbia and Mexico, as well as the entire South American continent. We aren't particularly worried about whether or not they will extradite people because of that. The same cannot be said of Afghanistan, you know that place we were originally supposed to be going before we got sidetracked with Iraq.


So no all you are advocating is a bigoted religious war based on paranoia and xenophobia


Man are you barking up the wrong tree. I've never advocated this or any other war. And I fail to see where you are getting that it is bigoted, religious, or xenophobic.


even when the Taliban said it would apprehend and extradite Bin Laden if we provided the same standard of proof that Columbia requires us when charging one of its citizens with a crime.


You mean this offer? The one they reneged on in 2001 before 9/11?


Taliban Renegs on Offer to Extradite Bin Laden

Tuesday, April 03, 2001

Afghanistan's ruling Taliban militia will not extradite suspected terrorist Osama bin Laden to any country, including one that would try him under Islamic law, a Taliban spokesperson was quoted as saying yesterday



on just about anyone and everyone who wasn’t involved including the American people.


The wars were supposed to be an effort to dismantle al Qaeda, the Taliban, and capture Bin Laden. That doesn't sound like "everyone who wasn't involved" to me.


Get some self respect, and show some backbone and stop acting like citizens of the U.S.S.R. is all I can say to any fellow American who is taking a commercial airline anywhere and being humiliated in this fashion.


It's not my no-fly list, it's the governments and the airlines. Not everyone is poked and prodded every time they fly, and many don't mind taking off their shoes and walking through a metal detector because everyone has to do it for the safety of everyone on the planes. It's not a lack of backbone, it's a choice of personal safety over refusing to take off your shoes. Despite the opinion of some, not everyone is strip-searched before getting on a plane.


Civilian oversight is crucial unless you want to have a Nazi Homeland Security Department


Yes it is, and part of that oversight is not re-electing the people causing the problems. Oversight doesn't mean that we need all the details of everything, especially not when the entire world has access to any and everything the government releases. The last thing we need is to give information to the enemy when it comes to our military, our assets, or our security.


Wake up please and read some real History. We were tricked into fighting World War I so badly we refused to ratify the Treaty of Versailles and the League of Nation


You've missed my point entirely. It doesn't matter how we got into the war, it doesn't matter that we were tricked. Facts are we got sucked in and fought in it but we didn't give all our secrets away to the enemy either.


I have an inalienable right to say these things, request these things and demand these things. Honesty and fairness and transparency in my government, that they follow the Constitutional principals and laws they were sworn to uphold and that they not terrorize me into giving up my rights in order to protect me from a war they have yet to prove we should be fighting.

You want to know why we have a terrorism problem. We don’t follow our own Constitutional principals and frankly I do believe Israel carried out 9-11 and not the 19 Saudis that they allege and I do believe our own Government was complicit in it and I have an inalienable right to say that too until my Government follows the rule of law and establishes the proof that they are right which they have failed to do.


You're right, you have the right to say or believe whatever you want. Like I've said, if you don't like what the government is doing don't vote for the same people over and over expecting a different result. Get the word out to everyone you know not to do so.

Israel is an ally. Why on earth would an ally be behind 9/11?


Start local worry about the rest of the world later and we won’t have a Terrorist problems


Yeah because we went and flew buildings into their buildings and killed thousands of their people. That's what made them hate us. Because we attacked them first.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 08:55 PM
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reply to post by Jenna
 




Does it really matter who detained them? Would it make it somehow different if they were detained by England or France? The list does not say who convicted them, only that some of them have been convicted.


Jenna the biggest problem with America today is everyone has been taught to abandon common sense.

“The devil is in the details” of course it matters. It especially matters to people who see their citizenship as a responsibility and the vote that goes along with one too. So someone was convicted of a parking ticked in France who is originally from Uruguay who read a book about not paying parking tickets written in Greenland…so let’s bomb Greenland!

Wow.




If you don't like where your tax dollars go, don't vote for anyone who currently holds or has held a government position and get the word out to others not to do so either. As it stands the people in office were elected, so the root of the problem lies in those who voted for those people.


First off I don’t vote; well not since Mondale ran for President. Second off I do encourage others not to vote.

Now for the bad news Jenna, I don’t vote because shortly after Mondale ran for office one of my business clients subsequently who became a personal friend unbeknownst to me in this process of earning his business and his friendship turned out to be one of the leading Powers that Be and he personally displayed to me first hand how the political process in the United States works. All roads lead to Rome they control every candidate in the pool with hardly ever an exception whether it be Republican, Democrat and Independent. Unless you whip open a phone book and write in a randomly selected name on your ballet who ever you voted for is the Powers that Be’s candidate and I think Obama is demonstrating that sad fact very well.

Nothing is going to change through the voting process.




So can you prove that none of them were or are a threat? The Constitution states:

It was written by Americans for Americans. It is only valid in the US. And nowhere in the Constitution is a standard of proof mentioned. Due process is, standard of proof is not.


So once again why are Columbian Drug Kingpins or people like Manuel Noriega innocent until proven guilty in an American Court of Law when they are brought before one.

Sadly my government can not prove any of them were a threat to the American people in a trial in a Court of Law which is the branch that the burden of proof is seen to in a fair and open way.
What kind of circular logic comes up with 19 Saudi’s, 6 of whom are still alive and victims of Identity Theft flew three planes that they were not even trained well enough to fly to make 2 of the tallest buildings in the world implode with expert demolition precision along with a building not hit by the planes or the debris but happened to house the SEC most of the Security Records and Building Records for the site and a whole host of other convenient things to make appear, and flew another plane by the most heavily defended territory in the world to strike it at 500 miles an hour 30 feet off the ground.

So we attack Afghanistan and Iraq to rectify this problem. It was a criminal conspiracy carried out allegedly by 19 Saudis who weren’t sponsored by anyone’s government.

8 years later we haven’t even accomplished objective one but we sure have spent trillions of dollars we don’t have and killed a lot of people not involved.

As I have said Americans have lost all common sense.




Then perhaps the people should be more selective in who they vote into office rather than voting the same people back in every election. Perhaps if they lost their positions the next person elected wouldn't make the same mistakes and it would not be an issue any longer.


Jenna all the world is a stage and well if you look up the legal definition of a person it is an actor wearing a mask. No one handed you or most other people a program book to the play but look around you in the world as you are in fact seeing that one by one everything you have been taught to imagine is real is a lie. It hasn’t all suddenly gone bad or crazy it’s all happening according to a very well orchestrated plan written a long time ago. Almost every thing you have been taught to believe is a lie for the purpose of enslaving you to an illusion and that plan.

The City of Washington D.C. is an official City/State not bound by the laws of the 50 states in the Union. We are told that’s for our own good, does it look like it’s working out for our own good to you? Now supposedly Washington D.C. is governed by Congress and Congressional Law but who is in fact Congress when they do not sit or dwell in part of the Union when they make those laws, and since the laws we have to abide by or make at the State Level don’t apply to them and there are such things as Secret Committees of Congress and Secret Sessions of Congress as well dealing with laws in treaties that they never ever tell us about, I don’t think your vote them out of office strategy is ever going to work.

Further I would like to point out that you are pushing blame and responsibility away from the government on to the people that clearly have no control in Government or over the Government.




Congress approved it, so apparently they thought it was the right thing to do. It's too late to worry about whether or not we should go, the decision has been made and the consequences must be dealt with. We shouldn't be in Iraq, I've said that from the start. Unfortunately my opinion doesn't amount to squat with the members of Congress. Our options have been rather limited, but the new government thinks they are ready to stand on their own without any help from us and I say more power to them. It takes time for a new government to settle into it's role and I'd much rather we stayed and helped than left and let them be taken over by the first organized group that came along. We made the mess, we should help clean it up.


Yes we did make the mess and we should help to clean it up. Unfortunately our idea of helping those two countries to clean it up is to pretend that our 220 year old culture which combines elements from people all over the world, can be substituted for the Thousands and Thousands of Years Old culture that doesn’t include ideas from all over the world. We can always find some corrupt and ambitious business men and political opportunists and control a voting process and a media process that makes it look like everyone is dying for a 7-11, Holy Bible New Testament King James Version and an ATM on every corner with a Block Buster Video but the reality is a majority of the people don’t want that and see the regimes we install for what they are, a bunch of corrupt business people turned politicians to line their pockets with U.S. Contracts and ambitions. The people throw them right out as soon as we leave.

Sadly we don’t believe democracy working at it’s finest doesn’t lead to 7-11s, Christianity, ATM’s and Hollywood’s version of life is a true democracy if it produces a majority that doesn’t want those things or see value in them.

If we respected the people there, listened to the people there, weren’t looking to make a buck there, and corrupt the whole process, the places would be stable by now, they were stable before we went in to them. We aren’t supposed to be the world’s policeman and we wouldn’t appreciate anyone attempting to do it to us, and if we are going to be the world’s policeman it better lead to fair charges, open courts of law, with public oversight before we condemn and sentence them and obviously that hasn’t happened either.

Might doesn’t make right Jenna it just makes a mighty mess when people who want to believe that it does, start acting like it does and believe me that’s all we are doing and the world outside of our internal propaganda bubble knows it.




So it takes racism, a religious agenda, or not being a true American to not demand to know everything?


Either that or laziness, a low IQ, a genuine lack of responsibility, lack of common sense or a general apathy and disinterest towards something called the Right to Self Determination.

Wow.




Because we have extradition treaties with Columbia and Mexico, as well as the entire South American continent. We aren't particularly worried about whether or not they will extradite people because of that. The same cannot be said of Afghanistan, you know that place we were originally supposed to be going before we got sidetracked with Iraq.


The Taliban offered to Extradite Osama Bin Laden if we would provide proof before the “Great Decider” started publicly declaring “We don’t have to provide anything, they had better just hand them over if they know what’s good for him”. Frankly I would have told him to go suck hot air then too. How come the FBI hasn’t charged Bin Laden with 9-11?
Explain the long standing ties with the Bin Laden and Bush families or why Pappa Bush was having breakfast with the head of the Bin Laden clan in Washington D.C. that morning. Frankly I think you are just punishing innocent people because of your own reluctance to believe our government is really as bad deceitful and corrupt, murderous and wicked as it is. Billions were made off of Put Option Stock bets on 9-11, the money doesn’t trace to Muslims or Arabs it traces to us and the CIA. Why on earth would I want to pretend a lie is not a lie when it’s bankrupting and destroying what little that was left of this nation’s constitution, international prestige and domestic way of life?

Again wow!



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 09:19 PM
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reply to post by Jenna
 





Man are you barking up the wrong tree. I've never advocated this or any other war. And I fail to see where you are getting that it is bigoted, religious, or xenophobic.


It’s got to be something motivating your desire to avoid wanting to see real proof that there is any reason for us to be attacking these two countries for something that 19 Saudis are alleged to have done that have never been charged with the crime, tried or convicted of it.

You are just avoiding that fact, to avoid that fact then and would appreciate it if a Watts Street Gang carried out a violent act in Japan and 8 years later Japan was still bombing your family and friends for it here in the United States and patrolling your street corners?

This sounds like a bad case of “Honey but the man on the phone told me I had won the vacation, I just needed to give them my credit card for the postage to send the tickets, I don’t see how they could have charged us thousands of dollars it must be some kind of mistake the credit card company made”




You mean this offer? The one they reneged on in 2001 before 9/11?


That looks like a retraction of offer not an offer to me Jenna, try posting all the “Great Decider Rhetoric” along with the original offer, and don’t quit your day job to go into the propaganda business in the meantime!




The wars were supposed to be an effort to dismantle al Qaeda, the Taliban, and capture Bin Laden. That doesn't sound like "everyone who wasn't involved" to me.


Wow pretty nice of the CIA to get all those outfits going to begin with, blame an uninvestigated crime on them with hastily put together evidence for a trial by TV that’s so flimsy they can’t take it to court and to boot made sure that all those principals in those organizations had every chance to escape the U.S. Military once over there.

But good news Shell Oil got a Pipeline built across Afghanistan the Taliban refused to allow built, and Opium production has increased 90 fold and Halliburton got a 1 million a day no bid contract to run Iraq’s infrastructure and wow conveniently had everything needed to do that standing by in warehouses.

Great strategy if you ask me, you don’t accomplish one task you set out to do that you tell the public but you and your good friends make billions.

I never developed a taste for Turnips or riding precariously on the back of a Turnip Truck.




It's not my no-fly list, it's the governments and the airlines. Not everyone is poked and prodded every time they fly, and many don't mind taking off their shoes and walking through a metal detector because everyone has to do it for the safety of everyone on the planes. It's not a lack of backbone, it's a choice of personal safety over refusing to take off your shoes. Despite the opinion of some, not everyone is strip-searched before getting on a plane.


Hey guess what in all my years in the Travel Business I could get to an airport 15 minutes before the flight and never get poked and prodded and 15 minutes before is if I wasn’t busy. I would walk through the front doors one metal detector, bag through a x-ray machine show my boarding pass and be the last one on the plane most of the time.

No one ever high jacked one to do top gun hair precision turns to fly past the most heavy air defenses in the world to strike the pentagon at 500 miles an hour 20 feet off the ground even though they had never flown a real airplane before either.

But had someone pulled out some Box Cutters I would have naturally remembered my upright seat back cushion can be used as a SAFETY and flotation device and not worried because its foam is thicker than the length of a Box Cutters blade.

But then again I have common sense and don’t live in a state of fear that borders panic.

Just ask them for an electronic tracking chip if it makes you feel safer!




Yes it is, and part of that oversight is not re-electing the people causing the problems. Oversight doesn't mean that we need all the details of everything, especially not when the entire world has access to any and everything the government releases. The last thing we need is to give information to the enemy when it comes to our military, our assets, or our security.


Guess what Jenna the Powers that Be agree with you! They don’t want you to know anything at all period including how rigged they have the election system.

Ask any successful person in the world Jenna what creates the most power and is the most useful thing, money, weapons, or knowledge.

Information is critical to making good decisions and the reality is the average person has so little real information to base a decision on; they couldn’t make a good decision by pure accident!

The world does not work the way you imagine it does, and believe it does, and believe it should, and it is being used against you and everyone else.

I personally believe I have an inalienable right to know everything that happens in the Universe and do not cotton on those with hidden agendas and a need to know basis.

Especially not a government that is supposed to represent me and see to my quality of life and security, look at the results that strategy is getting and then wake up to the fact that your vote or my vote or one politician or a host of them isn’t going to change that, when you are advocating a blind allegiance based on the flimsiest circumstantial evidence and blind trust in the people who are abusing you, that you instead blame on the other people being abused.




You've missed my point entirely. It doesn't matter how we got into the war, it doesn't matter that we were tricked. Facts are we got sucked in and fought in it but we didn't give all our secrets away to the enemy either.


Heaven forbid we find out in that processes they aren’t and never were our enemy and apologize make amends and friends. Who needs friends though when you can live in an economically costly and debilitating state of fear with lots and lots of imaginary enemies?

I would prefer to avoid the lets ride the ship down in flames strategy, I know you mind, but it’s still not going to keep me from being big enough, and smart enough, and sensible enough to always say, it’s never to late to do the right thing.




Israel is an ally. Why on earth would an ally be behind 9/11?


That’s simple they had the most to gain. In the Middle East the friend of my enemy is an enemy, the foe of my enemy is a friend. By getting us to believe that the Muslims are a threat to us too, we not only by extension back them up with our much mightier military but end up attacking their enemies and doing their dirty work and paying the cost of it too.

The Muslims had everything to loose in attacking us, the Israelis had everything to gain in making it look like Muslims attacked us.

Once again it is common sense.




Yeah because we went and flew buildings into their buildings and killed thousands of their people. That's what made them hate us. Because we attacked them first.


Once again it hasn’t been established and the reality is there is even more circumstantial evidence pointing to the Israelis and the CIA than there is to the Muslims, that’s why they can’t bring these people to trial.

We have long had an image problem in the Muslim world because we continually veto sanctions and condemnations against Israel in the United Nations Security Council and will hop on a communist or Islamic State’s violations in a second.

We don’t apply our foreign policy even or fairly and it’s cost a lot of lives in the Islamic world because no one can reign Israel in or force it to compensate the Palestinians who really did own Palestine before the Jews showed up claiming some covenant with G-d gave them a right to steal the land, and violate human rights, and the only thing that’s kept any kind of justice being done about it, that you and I and the Jews would demand if some other party did the same thing to us, is our Country using our U.N. Security Council Veto, arming Israel to the teeth and giving them billions of dollars in aide each year, while every once in a while we throw the Palestinians a cheeseburger.

Might really does not make right, and fair play and being fair is not well whose going to stop me.

We look like hypocritical fools to the rest of the world because we are so blinded by propaganda, distortions of the truth, omissions of the truth, and religious bigotry and racism.

Our forefathers didn’t want us taking sides but what’s real sad is we only ever listen to one side of any given argument when we do. I know very few people who have actually studied the non-religious version of history in the Middle East, and independent non-political versions of history in the Middle East or anything about the other Religions in the Middle East. Give them one or two inflammatory things to chew on and their minds are made up, kill them all and let G-d sort them out.
I am ashamed of the way our country behaves.

Our ideals and our dedication should mean more to us than this.



posted on May, 15 2009 @ 07:30 AM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
“The devil is in the details” of course it matters. It especially matters to people who see their citizenship as a responsibility and the vote that goes along with one too. So someone was convicted of a parking ticked in France who is originally from Uruguay who read a book about not paying parking tickets written in Greenland…so let’s bomb Greenland!


How does who detained them in any way affect that they have been detained?

Parking tickets? Try again:
Hamed Abderrahman Ahmed - Repatriated to Spanish custody, tried, convicted, and released on appeal. Spanish authorities alleged that Abderrahman Ahmad is a member of a Spanish al-Qaeda cell. Source

David Hicks - Spanish authorities alleged that Abderrahman Ahmad is a member of a Spanish al-Qaeda cell. Hicks pleaded guilty to a single newly codified charge of "providing material support for terrorism". Source

Karama Khamix - As of December 30, 2005 faces trial in Yemen. Released when it was determined he was part of a drug-smuggling ring and not part of al-Qaeda. According to the Yemen Observer Khamis was arrested on December 24, 2005, when he tried to approach the US Ambassador, while armed with a pistol and two hand grenades.[11] The Yemen Times says the alleged threat to the Ambassador was in December 2004.[12] Khamis has been charged with attempted assassination. Source

Shall I keep going? Or do you get the point?


First off I don’t vote; well not since Mondale ran for President. Second off I do encourage others not to vote.


Then you obviously are not helping the situation in any way. You can complain all you like, but to sit back and do nothing while complaining makes no sense whatsoever.


a personal friend ... turned out to be one of the leading Powers that Be


Ah, so you've met "them". Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that if "they" exist that they would just tell some random person they happen to meet on business that they are the infamous "they" and then go on to demonstrate their power.


Nothing is going to change through the voting process.


Not when people sit back complaining but refusing to vote or do anything else about it.


So once again why are Columbian Drug Kingpins or people like Manuel Noriega innocent until proven guilty in an American Court of Law when they are brought before one.


Once again, we have extradition treaties with Columbia. Extradition requests are rarely denied due to the strain on international relations. Innocent until proven guilty is an awfully pretty thought, unfortunately when you get people into a court room most are going to assume that the person must be guilty of something if they are up on charges and are sitting in a court room.


Sadly my government can not prove any of them were a threat ...
What kind of circular logic ...


Sadly the government has proved some of them were a threat, and several that they released falsely believing they were not a threat then went on to in fact blow themselves and others up. And none of what you listed is circular logic.


So we attack Afghanistan and Iraq to rectify this problem. It was a criminal conspiracy carried out allegedly by 19 Saudis who weren’t sponsored by anyone’s government.


We didn't attack Afghanistan, we attacked the al-Qaeda and Taliban forces hiding there. The people of Afghanistan fought with us. So how is that attacking Afghanistan? You keep telling me to read history, so how is it that you don't see the difference between attacking a country and attacking al-Qaeda and the Taliban? You know who the Taliban are right? They're the ones that took control of Afghanistan away from their people and government.

We shouldn't have gone to Iraq to begin with, but you know how those Bush's are when it came to Saddam. And as I'm sure you are aware it was not just a US thing, there were other countries that went with us during the invasion. But I'm sure that doesn't matter.


8 years later we haven’t even accomplished objective one


Sure we have, the Taliban no longer control Afghanistan and were all but wiped out, Saddam is out of power, and I haven't seen too many reports of al-Qaeda bombing innocent people lately. Of course none of that counts, it doesn't matter how many innocent people they killed with suicide bombs, all that matters is that we shouldn't have killed anyone.


As I have said Americans have lost all common sense.


Agreed.


Jenna all the world is a stage and well if you look up the legal definition of a person it is an actor wearing a mask.


Really? Every definition I can find says human being. Same in the legal dictionary.


The City of Washington D.C. is an official City/State not bound by the laws of the 50 states in the Union.




Source
Article One of the United States Constitution provides for a federal district, distinct from the states, to serve as the permanent national capital.



Further I would like to point out that you are pushing blame and responsibility away from the government on to the people that clearly have no control in Government or over the Government.


On the contrary, had the people not voted for those who currently hold office they would not be there now would they? If they were not in office they would not be passing the laws they have been passing. If they were not in office they would not be creating messes or debt for the rest of the country. The people absolutely have control over the government and if they believe otherwise they should exercise their right to overthrow that government. There are too many people in this country who refuse to take personal responsibility, and who they vote for is part of that personal responsibility.


Yes we did make the mess and we should help to clean it up. ... The people throw them right out as soon as we leave.


Well at least we agree on one thing. And we'll see how quickly they throw out everything once we leave. I assure you that they don't hate everything as much as you would like to believe.


If we respected the people there, listened to the people there, weren’t looking to make a buck there, and corrupt the whole process, the places would be stable by now, they were stable before we went in to them.


Yes, you're absolutely right. Living under a dictator who could and would kill you and your entire family on a whim was definitely more stable. Not to mention the stability of said dictator hording the country's wealth so he could buy himself a few new toys.


We aren’t supposed to be the world’s policeman and we wouldn’t appreciate anyone attempting to do it to us, and if we are going to be the world’s policeman it better lead to fair charges, open courts of law, with public oversight before we condemn and sentence them and obviously that hasn’t happened either.


Thus the reason I started this thread. It was supposed to be about the article I linked in the OP or even my first response to said article where I clearly stated that holding these people indefinitely without trial is not right.


Either that or laziness, a low IQ, a genuine lack of responsibility, lack of common sense or a general apathy and disinterest towards something called the Right to Self Determination.


I see the light now. Not insisting on knowing every detail of our military strategy, national security measures, etc. is the result of my laziness, racism, low IQ and lack of common sense rather than being the result of my understanding that there are some things other countries don't need to know as well as my understanding that if those things are released to us the rest of the world will know about them too. Heaven forbid I allow a few things to be kept from us in the interest of not having every country in the world that hates us know every detail as well.



The Taliban offered to Extradite Osama Bin Laden if we would provide proof ... How come the FBI hasn’t charged Bin Laden with 9-11?


Sure they did, and they revoked that offer just a few months before 9/11. Not to mention that the Taliban had overrun the government of Afghanistan and had taken over, but hey they're the good guys and we should've just cooperated.

I don't know, maybe he's dead. I don't work for the FBI, nor do I make decisions for them.


Explain the long standing ties with the Bin Laden and Bush families ...


In the interest of not taking this thread any further off track how about we leave all the 9/11 conspiracies in that section of the forum.



posted on May, 15 2009 @ 08:04 AM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
It’s got to be something motivating your desire to avoid wanting to see real proof that there is any reason for us to be attacking these two countries for something that 19 Saudis are alleged to have done that have never been charged with the crime, tried or convicted of it.


Or maybe I have no desire to avoid wanting to see real proof. Maybe, just maybe, I see the difference between attacking a country and attacking al-Qaeda. Isn't that much more likely than your assumption that everything I have posted in this thread is the result of racism and xenophobia when I began the thread by saying that I don't agree with these people being held with no trial?


You are just avoiding that fact, to avoid that fact then and would appreciate it if a Watts Street Gang carried out a violent act in Japan and 8 years later Japan was still bombing your family and friends for it here in the United States and patrolling your street corners?


Talk about needing to learn some facts. We haven't dropped bombs in Iraq in around 4 years. All the bombings that have been going on are the result of the insurgents and the suicide bombers. Thus the reason they have been talking about car bombs.


This sounds like a bad case of “Honey but the man on the phone told me I had won the vacation...


Wow...



That looks like a retraction of offer not an offer to me Jenna, try posting all the “Great Decider Rhetoric” along with the original offer, and don’t quit your day job to go into the propaganda business in the meantime!


Now I want you to re-read what you just wrote and then think about it for a minute.. How could they retract an offer if it wasn't there to begin with?



Wow pretty nice of the CIA to get all those outfits going to begin with, blame an uninvestigated crime on them with hastily put together evidence for a trial by TV that’s so flimsy they can’t take it to court ...





Hey guess what in all my years in the Travel Business I could get to an airport 15 minutes before the flight and never get poked and prodded...


Hey guess what, I've flown since 9/11 and made it through in 15 minutes without being poked and prodded. Several times actually. Walked through the metal detector, let them look at my shoes, and I was done and ready to board.


Just ask them for an electronic tracking chip if it makes you feel safer!


Yes, that makes so much more sense then taking off your shoes.



I personally believe I have an inalienable right to know everything that happens in the Universe and do not cotton on those with hidden agendas and a need to know basis.


Then you sir are part of the problem. Not part of the solution as you would like to believe. Why don't you just run for office and then release everything and see how long it takes for us to be bombed to oblivion or taken over.


Especially not a government that is supposed to represent me and see to my quality of life and security


Like I said, if people have that big of a problem why is it that they sit in their computer chairs doing nothing about it instead of exercising their right to overthrow the government? Oh yeah, cause it's easier to complain than to do something about it.


Heaven forbid we find out in that processes they aren’t and never were our enemy and apologize make amends and friends.


Heaven forbid the German government during WWI tried to get Mexico to ally with them against us, which caused us to be involved, and heaven forbid Germany, Japan, and Italy declared war on us during WWII. Sounds like some real good friends to me.


The Muslims had everything to loose in attacking us, the Israelis had everything to gain in making it look like Muslims attacked us.


It wasn't the Muslims, it was some Muslims. And the Israelis had little if anything to gain from us going after al-Qaeda.


Once again it is common sense.


Agreed. Unfortunately our versions of common sense seem to differ.


Once again it hasn’t been established and the reality is there is even more circumstantial evidence pointing to the Israelis and the CIA than there is to the Muslims, that’s why they can’t bring these people to trial.


Really? I watched the second plane fly into the building. It definitely happened. Circumstantial evidence doesn't amount to squat. And you cannot say with any degree of certainty why they haven't brought all of them to trial, but some of them most certainly have been brought to trial and have been convicted.


We don’t apply our foreign policy even or fairly and it’s cost a lot of lives in the Islamic world


Not nearly as many as it has cost them with all of their in-fighting over who's version of religion is right. What we need to do is quit worrying about the rest of the world and let them blow each other to smithereens if that's what they want to do.


We look like hypocritical fools to the rest of the world because we are so blinded by propaganda, distortions of the truth, omissions of the truth, and religious bigotry and racism.


Which is so much worse than having our news censored so we only get the propaganda the government wants us to have, the truth they want us to have, and being taught from birth that our religion is the only right one and that if we kill the heathens we'll be rewarded in the after-life.

Oh wait...



posted on May, 15 2009 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by Jenna
 


Its a lot of circular logic you are employing Jenna.

Your debate focuses on the frail supposition that two wrongs egual a right.

They don't.

The frightening thing is that you don't see how the "Bomb them if we think they are Al Queda or Taliban" is in fact the same "I don't agree with how some people think, live and react" argument that you favor as justification for bombing them in the first place.

When either side attempts to impose their own warped view of two wrongs make a right morality both sides loose.

Your only high ground comes from the circular logic that you employ the allows you individually based on your own individual perspective to indisciminantly 'blanket' judge others based on your own singular perceptions and the knowledge you wish to include and preclude based on simply finding justification to validate what are purely emotional and not logical responses.

Logical responses would be the unrellenting pursuit of peace, diplomacy and dialouge to address every real point of contention that exists between two parties and to keep looking for a shared understanding through a series of give and take compromises that form the back bone of any functional reliationship.

If someone 'thinks' from 15,000 feet in the air based on Satellite Photos that provided the 'idea' that someone is Taliban or Al Queda that is all the proof you want or need to drop a bomb on them from 15,000 feet in the air and their wife, children, belongings.

Some how you truly imagine this is a morally supperior side?

It's the meek that inherit the earth and they don't become meek by killing one another off.

You want to blame everyone else for not doing this and not doing that while you promote the ideal that we should live in fear instead of seeking peace, that we should kill everyone and anything that does not agree with us or we don't agree with how they handle their backyards and worlds and amazingly you see this as a solution, a difference in what you are advocating eliminating because it is 'morally' wrong and a high road.

In the meantime you want not 'better' or 'truer' information, you don't think you need to know that and you don't think anyone else does either.

In the meantime you simply refute people who are armed with factual information that don't allow for your circular logic as being liars or incorrect or naive.

Further you haven't wiped out the Taliban as they are ressurging and logically would when the people from which they come from are under constant indiscriminate violent and deadly bombardment.

You favor a genocide approach for some people while decying those who commit genocide against another people.

Like most war mongering people ruled by their emotions instead of logic and a passion for knowledge and truth you point to the bankrupting failure in economics and morals of what you advocate as simply "We haven't gotten to do this enough yet or to the wholy murderous extent we should for it to really work"

You are in fact no different than your so called enemy in your murderous thinking but simply believe because you wish to murder for what seems like a different reason to you that is not their reason then it's a good enough reason to murder people without trials or juries or establishing some guilt that makes them a deadly and pretadory person and danger to everyone else.

It's all just about imposing what you imagine is right in a quest for dominance and because you imagine your right you can't imagine why anyone who seeks peace, truth and knowledge is as wise.

These silly wars where some simple diplomacy and trials would do far more to educated, enlighten and move people towards peace have in fact already bankrupted and destroyed our nation, both economically, constitutionally and morally.

You go ahead and keep fighting for what you imagine you are so sure is 'right' and that 'might' will prove that.

Remember though that what goes around comes around and maybe that's why you feel this overwhelming desire for the rest of us to live in fear.

Neither politics, idealogy, philosophy or religion breaks the ultimate justice of the Karmic wheel and one look at the Newspapers will tell you in fact you are facing it.

Like a lot of people on the other side who don't want to be a party to it, they too are punished by extension because of this exact type of thinking.

So to do the people here who don't want to be a party to it suffer.

I hope your little killing fest is worth it to you Jenna, its going to take a long long time to tally up all the things that were good that died in that process.

Good luck to you, you sure will be needing it.

Karmic justice after all is never denied.



posted on May, 15 2009 @ 12:30 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Its a lot of circular logic you are employing Jenna.

Your debate focuses on the frail supposition that two wrongs egual a right.


Ok. Show me where I used circular logic or stated/implied that two wrongs equal a right.


The frightening thing is that you don't see how the "Bomb them if we think they are Al Queda or Taliban" is in fact the same "I don't agree with how some people think, live and react" argument that you favor as justification for bombing them in the first place.


On the contrary, I don't care how other people live, think or react. As long as they aren't hurting me, it doesn't affect me and I don't really care. However, I see nothing wrong with going after the people who attacked us. And I would much rather we know who we are dropping bombs on.


Your only high ground comes from the circular logic that you employ


Again, show me where my logic is circular.


Logical responses would be the unrellenting pursuit of peace, diplomacy and dialouge to address every real point of contention that exists between two parties and to keep looking for a shared understanding through a series of give and take compromises that form the back bone of any functional reliationship.


And logical thought will tell you that while those are very worthwhile and lofty goals, it isn't going to happen. No matter how much you or I might wish otherwise. We can't force anyone to sit down and talk about their feelings when they would just as soon blow us up with a car bomb as look at us.


If someone 'thinks' from 15,000 feet in the air based on Satellite Photos that provided the 'idea' that someone is Taliban or Al Queda that is all the proof you want or need to drop a bomb on them from 15,000 feet in the air and their wife, children, belongings.


Never said it was. Fortunately we didn't have to rely on that because they released a flipping video claiming they did it knowing full well what our response would be. Now why, pray tell, would a group of people who were innocent of flying planes into our buildings release a video saying they did it when they knew that we had bombs and aren't afraid to use them? Does that make sense to you?


It's the meek that inherit the earth and they don't become meek by killing one another off.


It's the meek that get ran over and taken advantage of thinking that if they think happy thoughts that the rest of the world will leave them alone.


You want to blame everyone else for not doing this and not doing that while you promote the ideal that we should live in fear instead of seeking peace, that we should kill everyone and anything that does not agree with us or we don't agree with how they handle their backyards and worlds and amazingly you see this as a solution, a difference in what you are advocating eliminating because it is 'morally' wrong and a high road.


I place blame at the feet of it's owners. We did not make anyone fly planes into our buildings. We did however elect the people in our government who made the decisions that were made, not all of us but enough for those people to be elected. It's not my fault that you would rather blame everything on the government than accept that fault for flying planes into the buildings lies at the feet of the ones who planned it, fault for the response lies at the feet of those holding office when the choice was made, and fault for electing those people into office lies at the feet of those who elected them.


In the meantime you want not 'better' or 'truer' information, you don't think you need to know that and you don't think anyone else does either.


Incorrect. I said we don't need to know every little detail about everything. I never said we don't need to know the truth about anything. Big difference there.


In the meantime you simply refute people who are armed with factual information that don't allow for your circular logic as being liars or incorrect or naive.


What factual knowledge? That it's all the Jews fault? Or that the people we went to war with during WWI and WWII were all our friends? Neither of those assertions is correct and I didn't get there using circular logic.


Further you haven't wiped out the Taliban as they are ressurging and logically would when the people from which they come from are under constant indiscriminate violent and deadly bombardment.


From their own people, not from us. Again, we aren't there blowing up innocent people with car bombs or suicide bombers.


You favor a genocide approach for some people while decying those who commit genocide against another people.


No I don't. I favor holding the people responsible accountable. Nowhere in that is genocide stated or implied. It is you who keeps trying to insert that notion where it doesn't exist.


Like most war mongering people ruled by their emotions instead of logic and a passion for knowledge and truth you point to the bankrupting failure in economics and morals of what you advocate as simply "We haven't gotten to do this enough yet or to the wholy murderous extent we should for it to really work"


What on earth are you talking about? I haven't mentioned economics even once. I like how you keep trying to give me motivations and intentions that I don't have though. Real nice.


You are in fact no different than your so called enemy in your murderous thinking but simply believe because you wish to murder


Once again you are incorrect. I don't wish to murder anyone or have them murdered. Keep going though. Try to put some more motivations on me that I don't have.


It's all just about imposing what you imagine is right in a quest for dominance and because you imagine your right you can't imagine why anyone who seeks peace, truth and knowledge is as wise.


Yeah, quest for dominance that's why I said we as a country need to stay the hell home and let the rest of the world blow themselves to smithereens if that's what they want to do. Are you actually reading what I post or do you skim it and imagine you know what I've written?


These silly wars where some simple diplomacy and trials would do far more to educated, enlighten and move people towards peace have in fact already bankrupted and destroyed our nation, both economically, constitutionally and morally.


Did you read my OP? Again, I have clearly stated several times that these people need to go to court and be put on trial and let the law sort them out.


I hope your little killing fest is worth it to you Jenna, its going to take a long long time to tally up all the things that were good that died in that process.


It's not my killing fest now is it. But at least now it is abundantly clear that you aren't actually reading the words I type in favor of attempting to lecture me on what you presume are my motives and thoughts.

[edit on 15-5-2009 by Jenna]



posted on May, 15 2009 @ 01:33 PM
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These things make Obama look more Bush-like. Plus, he's working to cover up 9/11, which is a crime of aiding and abetting after the fact or something like to that effect.

Too bad they just can't come clean with everything and hang the past administration out to dry, and then it would be over and done with.



posted on May, 15 2009 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by Jenna
 


Jenna I can't really say much more that could help you see your way through and out of the circle that I have not already said but this...

Take every strategy we are employing in this so called War on Terror, and take every last little emotion, idealogy, religion, philosophy, ethnology out of it, and just look at the net total effect.

One side kills in a way that causes innocent deaths...equals...innocent deaths...nothing more...nothing less.

The other side kills in a way that causes innocent deaths...equals...innocent deaths...nothing more...nothing less.

One side imposes an idealology in regards to this struggle calls for human beings having less rights and freedoms...equals...fewer rights and freedoms for those people...nothing more...nothing less

The other side imposes an idealology in regards to this struggle calls for human beings having less rights and freedoms...equals...fewer rights and freedoms for those people...nothing more...nothing less

There is in fact no difference in the net total effect regarding your desired approach.

You have one way, they have another, and you still can't figure out why your both not getting along?

It is your inalienable right to choose to gravitate towards that lowest common denominator of being involved in that process but make no mistake each side creates the same net effect.

The circle is of course the fact that you don't think it is realistic or humanly possible by your own admission and your own words for human beings to behave peacefully and civily towards one another at all times.

So why try.

Jenna I have to tell you that's the vote that counts, not the one anyone makes at the polls on election day.

Your vote's net effect is in favor of the process of killing in a silly kill or be killed paranoid state that well just advocates killing. Not just killing but being told as very little as you have to be about it. Yet advocating for it regardless all the while.

That's your actual vote.

My actual vote is for peace.
24/7 365



posted on May, 15 2009 @ 07:17 PM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


So basically, you haven't actually read anything I've posted, can't really explain what I have said that was a circular argument, and assume you know what my motivations are even though I've told you that your assumptions are wrong. Ok, got it.

I really wish we could all just get along, but the plain and simple fact is that people have been at war with each other since the beginning of time. Whether it was one tribe going after another, one village going after another, or one country going after another. Wishing and hoping gets us nowhere when no one is able to see far enough past the end of their nose to realize that it doesn't really matter what religion you or anyone else follows, they are all basically the same. It doesn't matter what color you or anyone else's skin is, everything underneath it is the same. It doesn't matter if the boundary line between our countries is here or five feet to the left, it's dirt and grass and those are easy things to come by especially dirt.

None of the things people fight over matter in the long run, but no one cares because they would rather be right and "win". So while it would be nice if we could all live in peace, it doesn't make one bit of sense to think that if we just sit back and think happy thoughts that other countries aren't going to take advantage of that.



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 01:00 PM
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Barry is laying the foundations for Gleichschaltung.



posted on May, 21 2009 @ 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I will tell you what they can't reveal to the public. Gitmo is a terrorist training school run by the United States of America in order to keep the War on Terror going.


I heard they were also training them all to fly dragons into kindergardens.



posted on May, 23 2009 @ 10:54 AM
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I believe this will end up having little to do with terroists and more to do with citizens




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