Americans, How Much Do We Despise Socialism?

I am starting to think that the 'Capitalist' mentality that us Americans have been raised with, is actually just a way of brainwashing us into accepting being taken advantage of at every turn as slaves.

While I still believe in Libertarian values and freedoms... This 'Capitalist' mentality just means slavery... And being denied basic rights that every other Industrialized nation has for its citizens.

America brings in just as much money, or more. But without needing to dish out for things considered basic 'rights rights' in other developed countries, America has more to give a select few that 'deserve' to be wealthy beyond all recognition, and funding an extremely active Military Industrial Complex.

Federal Income Tax in America is 15% for people earning between $8,351– $33,950.
www.taxfoundation.org...
Social Security tax rate at 6.20%
www.moneybluebook.com...
Sales tax is different in every state.... While states like Oregon (with no sales tax), have extremely high property taxes.
www.taxadmin.org... - sales tax per state.


In England, the Income Tax for £0-£37,400 is 20%.
www.hmrc.gov.uk...
England has a 15% - 17.5% sales tax, or VAT.
www.startinbusiness.co.uk...
(Please forgive me if I am misunderstanding, England?)

Oil tax is excluded, because driving is optional. I do not care who says otherwise, driving is not essential to survival, like many Americans claim. Me and most people I know get around quite well without a vehicle.

So far we have a total of 35% tax in England... for working, and buying essentials. (Of course, this is only considering the average income tax bracket. )

In America, 21.2% average federal, and social security tax. Add local state tax to that, and state sales tax. Add the fact that Health care is not included. Childcare is not included. Education/University is not included, and will leave people in debt for the rest of their lives if they dare 'follow their dreams'.

Property tax is also excluded, since it is optional to own a home... But they are EXTREMELY high, where there is no sales tax. I think the average of sales tax runs between 5% to about 8.5%.

In America, we do NOT pay less in taxes than in England, and anywhere else that provides basic services... Like childcare, healthcare, university... And WHO KNOWS what other benefits...

I am just saying, maybe the 'Capitalist Mentality' most Americans have, have been more of a way of having NO HELP when Emergency Room visits and major health problems... or losing a job in this bad economy, can force us to lose our home, ability to get another job, ability to afford food, access to clean water...

Capitalism is not the King of systems. Capitalism has allowed for the likes of Rothschild and the Rockefellers to enslave us all... Honestly, America only rewards people who do not work, and pop out children. The rest of us can work our arses off and not afford healthcare, while paying for it for the lazy people who do not work.
-The existence of undocumented workers, willing to work for very little, just means unfair competition... and people having a harder time finding work in some fields. While their competition meaning the work is worth less money, anyway.

The old grannies in Canada do not have to debate themselves on whether they can afford groceries or their life-saving meds for the next month, every month -- like the elderly in America have to.

The working class poor mothers in England do not need to debate whether they can afford to work, with childcare costing as much as they would bring in -- Like families in America face.

I am not saying total Socialism is the answer... England and Canada have their issues too. But at least one tiny accident will not lead to their loss of a place to sleep, access to healthcare and meds, food and who knows what else.

I have not been reading articles about Canadian families losing jobs and ending up shooting themselves and their family -- Kids and all.

Can we all agree that citizens living in a Capitalist state have been set up for failure??

Will Edit if I find mistakes, inaccuracies, or whatever...

Really, learning about different economic systems has been making me feel ashamed for all of my years of blind support for Capitalism.

EDIT: Just been adding, for my own references.

[edit on 11-5-2009 by LostNemesis]

I despise socialism quite a lot.

To tell you the truth-- we haven't had capitalism since the inception of the federal reserve.

Go look up about it.

If you want to know why a laptop costs so much that you want to get-- it's because of the fed keeping it at a steady price and not allowing the price to go down.

The fed is evil.



We don't have capitalism. That's like saying the soviet Union was a free market nation.

I was raised to believe that you earn your keep, not that I have to be equal with the lazy kid next door having his first kid with no job/income at all.

We are all equally human beings in my eyes, but some of us work a lot harder then the others to get where they are and I absolutely hate the idea of socialism.
I also dislike capitalism.

Barter system works better than anything else.

I actually like the idea of the free market.

I guess I must be a right-wing extremist then!!



But is capitalism really that bad? Sure, in the past it's been messed up-- but we can make it work better in reality.

The problem with the American market is that it was over-run with these new ideas of socialism and communism. This was brought to us by a Monarchy. To be specific, England. The market in England before the formation of America was filled with credits, and debts made from the bankers. Those bankers seemed to run the government. When America refused to be part of their corrupt market, they most likely were the ones who rallied the armies of England against us. In defeating the English, we defeated their market and its control over us. Many years later we fell into the same trap that England was in, when the formation of the Fed occured. Our ancesters didn't learn from their ancesters, and now we must pay the price.

I Love my country, and I have the responsibility to question my government.

reply to post by Frankidealist35


You are right. We are not living in a true Capitalist system. Therefor, we cannot simply work harder to get ahead.

When I was growing up, I was told that I could work for what I wanted. I could simply work my way to the top if I put in the work needed to get there.


No longer can one paycheck support a household. No longer is a comfortable retirement guaranteed by simply working our entire lives away.

The 'American Dream' can only been realized by people willing to take advantage of others.

We spend as much, or more % in taxes, for less return, than people living in like, Canada or the UK.

I strongly feel that the 'American Dream' has been a hoax. 'Capitalism' and a 'free market' has always been rigged. Otherwise, yeah... Work would pay what it is worth.

Competition would have prices set at market value - aka what it was worth, depending on the demand for the products or services. Businesses that could not sustain themselves would be allowed to go under.

The competition would be fierce, for the best workers, who produce the best products or services. People would truly be paid what they are worth... Their value to the best business, that was able to beat out competition.

Maybe we have NEVER been capitalist, although we have been raised to think we were(?) We have simply been conditioned to be OK with losing everything when we lose a job. We have been conditioned to believe that health care is an entitlement to those that are lucky enough to afford it. While the taxpayers pay for the lazy people who breed, to have free food, free healthcare, free housing, free everything -- Those who WORK, are used to the idea of becoming homeless someday if times get bad. Nothing to fall back on.... What the heck kind of a system is that?

We have grown used to paying a large percentage of anything we earn, into a system that has no obligation to give back to us.

The funny thing is that socialism isn't a fixed set of rules and guidelines. Actually, having the state control capital within a market economy is also a form of socialism. And that is what everybody seems to be shouting for in relation to the Fed.

Just look at western nations with a socialist party in government. They are not advocating the Karl Marx approach of socialism. They are not against the free market economy. I think it is time more people read up on capitalism and socialism and the changes in thinking over the last 20 years within those frameworks.

I wouldn't want to live in a purely socialist state. But I don't mind having a socialist party in the government coalition. Because on some issues it's not wise to let the market have it's way without some steering from government.

reply to post by LostNemesis


Our system was at one time a true capitalist market, and from what I understand.... the truest type of capitalism is the barter system. The barter system shows us the true sence of, the harder you work the more you get. The barter system seems to me as the basis for what a free market should be.

reply to post by Tentickles


I like to think that we are all equal human beings too, in some sense.

But the reality I am seeing, is that some people are just more worthy.

Everybody who plays by the rules, cannot get ahead in this system. You must CHEAT in some way, to either get by... or to get AHEAD of anyone else.

This means that you must ride on the backs of the poor, those willing to work hard to make you rich -- and receive low wages. While their production/work makes you insane profits. So, you are taking advantage of others....

The other way, is to take advantage of the system. Lifelong welfare earners have never faced losing anything. They need not break a sweat, to make sure they have a warm place to sleep and food to eat. They have the title of 'poor', yet their only 'work' is making sure the system keeps working for them. The checks come in, the low income housing assures they can always pay their bills... And they get a separate income just for food! Again, taking advantage of others.... (Those who struggle, to make someone else rich)

Just accept the fact that working harder does not assure all of your needs are met. The working class is very vulnerable, and very much exploited from all directions.

Thanks for the response!!!! I agree about the barter system. I agree this is the ultimate way for people to come together, and everyone is truly able to work for whatever they want and need.

What better motivation to produce, or be good at something, than working for yourself and your family.... Instead of working to make someone else rich?

EDIT: wording more clear

[edit on 11-5-2009 by LostNemesis]

[edit on 11-5-2009 by LostNemesis]

LostNemesis, I think you and several others on this board are indicative of a larger shift in the thinking of Americans as a whole that is taking place right now. What we are seeing I think, is the genesis of a new system, blending elements of socialism, capitalism and of course liberty into something new. It seems that our new system is also being based on pragmatism rather than the unrealistic idealism of past political movements such as Communism, which I think is what makes this so inherently strong. We are learning from the mistakes we've been ignoring finally.

It's also beginning to look like not too much has to change for more people to get on board with this too. Americans are forever linked to a set of ideals, personal freedom and liberty primary among those but I think we're starting to realize that what "capitalism" has become in this country isn't one of them. The current system is rather broken as the economic situation and social realities are showing. As Americans, I think we'll do what we do best, fix the problem, even if we have to find a new way to do it.

Originally posted by Dorfl
The funny thing is that socialism isn't a fixed set of rules and guidelines. Actually, having the state control capital within a market economy is also a form of socialism. And that is what everybody seems to be shouting for in relation to the Fed.

I just find it sad really, that in America we are forced to pay as much in taxes as the other industrialized nations. But instead of the money going towards our own citizens, it seems to be siphoned into the hands of the already rich, via TPTB's Military Industrial Complex.

IF this was a true free market, we would just need to produce better services or products than the corporations that exist... and work our business up to where we could equally compete with anyone else.

Socialism is not the answer. I say either put our tax dollars to work for the people that pay them, or STOP taking them from us. Period.

Taxation without representation is what I resent, here. Sorry, hope I did not go off topic. I am open minded, but also sick of my people being exploited while our wealth gets laundered elsewhere... Most likely to people already rich.

reply to post by LostNemesis


The people of America hate the concept of socialism, so to do the Brits and Aussies alike; its what we've fought wars in resent years trying to defeat.
The shock of it all is when one day you wake up and thoughtfully realize that your Governments democracy, is infact, socialism with a different facia.
Communism and socialism come in many forms.
Karl Marx outlined his directives for communism in 3 main points:
1) Disolution of the family unit
2) Disolution of Religions
3) All land to be owned by the state
If anyone of us can honestly say that these principals are not being perpetuated by western governments, THINK AGAIN

reply to post by LostNemesis


Hi

First for the nay-sayers, of course Capitalism is here, and as the same as USSR imbodied Communism, the USA imbody Capitalism.

With the Wall of Berlin we saw the "Fall of Communism".
Now in the early 21th Century we begin to see the "Fall of Capitalism".

And you know what? I'm happy to live to see the fall , not of the USA, but of Capitalism (precision for the heavies).

TheTilde
(mangling with the english langage since last century)

Originally posted by KRISKALI777
reply to post by LostNemesis

 

The people of America hate the concept of socialism, so to do the Brits and Aussies alike; its what we've fought wars in resent years trying to defeat.
The shock of it all is when one day you wake up and thoughtfully realize that your Governments democracy, is infact, socialism with a different facia.

I think you are 100% right. The system we are seeing, taxes heavily... and instead of putting those tax dollars into providing for the people that pay it....

We see Corporate Welfare. "Too big to fail." The rich are denied the ability to fail, but instead are the recipients of everything the working class earns.. and more. Leaving the working class in severe debt for generations to come.

Is this slavery? Without benefits that slaves in other countries receive? Conditioned to accept that right to life and wealth are reserved only for a few?

reply to post by ProjectJimmy


Well I don't know if the direction that we are headed in is best for the common American citizen. I think that the direction that we are going will help out conglomerants and the already wealthy. Personally I dont think that they need any help, or at least not anymore. It is time to start over, unfortunately Americans don't know how to start over, don't think they can do anything or, don't want anything to change. I personaly dont think that i can do anything on my own, or even with the small amount of people who may know what to do, to fix what is a terminal system.

reply to post by TheTilde


I guess the real question is though: What comes after capitalism?
Something better I hope, I like the ideas presented in Zeitgeist Addendum; made sense to me! What didnt make sense was donations to the movement to build the Venus Project - maybe its greed that is our undoing

Originally posted by TheTilde
And you know what? I'm happy to live to see the fall , not of the USA, but of Capitalism (precision for the heavies).

TheTilde
(mangling with the english langage since last century)

Thanks for the reply, very happy to see this kind of opinion. I want to see it fail, too.

Perhaps for personal reasons, but I would love to see the powers in control fail. I would love to see us take back the wealth that we have created in this country. Hell, all countries.

For those in power to fail, would mean we could build everything from the ground up, again. But this time, for us and not them.

Would you agree with what has been said about bartering?

reply to post by acewilliams


Well I think Americans are simply afraid of change. They are afraid of 'rocking the boat'. I think we already realize everything has been taken from us.

I think what we are feeling right now, is resentment.

Not only have we been robbed financially, by a corrupt system, of money that does not exist...

But we have been robbed of any dignity we might have had. It will only get worse.

reply to post by TheTilde


I dont think that we are seeing the fall of capitalism, but the result of the slow overtaking that has occured over time. When currency and the market began to be controlled, is the beginning of the end for capitalism. That control was started by the creation of the fed.

reply to post by KRISKALI777


I agree, would be nice if something better was coming our way.

We have been terrorized, had the wealth stolen from us, been lied to by a corrupt government... Anything must be better than what we have.

I am not too familiar with the ideals in Zeitgeist: Addendum. But at least they were asking for donations, as opposed to trying to scam...

What I really hate, is people who pretend to be truth-tellers.. The ones that talk about how much of a scam our fiat-currency is, followed by trying to SELL us a book or something. I mean, how can you talk about how evil money is, followed by asking for some?