22,000 “Green” Jobs Outsourced to India

reply to post by SLAYER69


The economic cycle is a finely balanced thing.

Once the Indians start doing well in tech support etc, they demand higher wages. This drives labour away from India and to a lower cost environment... say Indonesia for example.

For instance Taiwan started out making cheap shoes, toys etc. They then massively ramped up their engineering efforts... 1/4th of their entire population is an engineer. Now they're designing and producing electronics which are world leading.

The capitalist business cycle will eventually ensure the development of the entire world. Any people in developed countries who lose their jobs need to retrain for the next phase of their country's economic development.

That's all I'm saying... that the emphasis should be on retraining, learning new skills and adapting to the global economy. Protectionism is merely hiding under a rock, and only secures the jobs of those who are too lethargic to adapt. Protectionism is truly anti-evolution.

I will explain in depth how globalisation could bring a glorious new era to the USA.

Free Market System

1. Jimbob loses his tech support job to some Indian.
2. The Indian has a great increase in his salary, lifestyle and most importantly, his purchasing power.
3. While the Indian is acting as a tech support worker, his talent is wasted.
4. Jimbob uses that time to retrain as an architect. He then offers consultancy services to the newly affluent Indian.
5. Jimbob becomes richer and gains new opportunities, the Indian becomes richer.

Jimbob is not any one person, he is the entire US labour force.

Alternatively, if you are ignorant... you chose this system:

1. Jimbob loses his tech support job to some Indian.
2. Jimbob curses the Indian and calls him Apu.
3. Jimbob demands labour protectionism, resulting in corporations moving out of the USA to avoid labour laws
4. Jimbob's neighbour BillyBob also loses his job after the corporation moves.
5. The Indian uses his newfound wealth to better the education of his children.
6. India becomes richer, the USA becomes worse-off.

(Or alternatively, the company keeps Jimbob in his job; the world economy stagnates, there is no international development).

Originally posted by badgerprints
It will never be about American Citizens or American jobs. That's because what is good for us is not good for the politicians.
If we got rid of financial incentives for businesses to outsource to other countries then the lobbyists wouldn't be giving all of that money to our senators and representatives. How can we expect our legislative branch to go against the needs of the population indefinitely if they are not getting rich by doing it?
Get with the program guys.

Wow that's a good point,
too

LOL Outsource the Presidency. With all due respect, Have you been living under a rock? That's what we did! We outsourced the Presidency.

OMG we did.

[edit on 103131p://bMonday2009 by Stormdancer777]

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
When will you realise that neither the government, nor private businesses owe you anything.


You can complain all you want, and you can stump for protectionism as much as you like... but unless you move into a career that requires you to use your mind in an innovative capacity, some Indian or another is always going to take your job.

Protect yourself with an education, rather than demanding government intervention while extrapolating a Simpsons character to 1/6th of the human species.

[edit on 11-5-2009 by 44soulslayer]

That is just the problem, Americans have to pay for their education. And it is a fortune!

So six months after graduation, someone needs to land a good job when those hefty student loans start coming in. And you need to make a decent sum to pay them, and still live.

I think education is something that should be paid for by the government, to help compete.

then you have people getting in on academic basis. Not on their ability for them or their family to pay.

Then without having to deal with the costs of education, Americans can start work at a lower salary.

Originally posted by SLAYER69 (reply to post by 44soulslayer)
Just wait until some place else is found that can do it even cheaper and the rug is pulled out from beneath their feet. There will be a lot of bitching then.

Fearful as I am to interpose myself between you sanguinary gentlemen...

...just imagine if the someplace else turns out to be America.

Turn and turn about; it happens. Remember when Britain was the manufacturing powerhouse of the world? Or - more recently - when all Japan was known for was paper fans and tinplate toys and lightbulbs that burned out in a month?

I am not Indian, but I know the country well and admire it. I believe it has a fine chance of becoming the world's powerhouse of innovation, if only the Indian government would invest in the necessary educational and enabling infrastructure. China is doing that in spades, but it lacks that familiarity with the culture and psychology of the West that is second nature to every educated Indian, and which so many of them have already turned to such good advantage in the labs, boardrooms and trading-floors of the western world.

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by St Udio

 

sorry to say this but if we have not jobs we can not afford the technology not matter from where is coming from.

Does that sounds right to you?

After all we are a nation that our credit lines has been cut short.

With Obamas Socialization of the economy,
we will not need jobs to get solar cells on our not-yet-Foreclosed homes...

HUD or some other gov't agency will install it free, as a part of retrofitting
our infrastructure...


the days of self reliance, putting away money etc is gone/finis/kaput...
bailouts, are the new paradigm
Bonuses, the new Norm

reply to post by St Udio


Hey as long as the installation is free I would not mind to have them installed in my home.

Where is the waiting list.

reply to post by Kombatt98


Wow, funny how just because I post the thread, suddenly I am a racist who hates all other nations?

What is wrong with you friend? I suggest you calm down and stop making baseless accusations.

The problem I have with this particular outsourcing is not that it is going to India, I could care less. I have been an integral part of Indian culture as a matter of fact since by husbands sister has married and lives there, we visit Dubai often.

That's besides the point, the problem is that Obama was said to create Green Jobs IN America, to help his people with the rising costs and lack of work.

Going green means getting your citizens working in the green field. These 22 thousand jobs do not help the US they help India, which is a good thing, however this presidency was sold on false pretexts.

Ofcourse other nations have every right to participate in the design and creation of our new global "green" standard that is arising, however my own concern is that the people have elected yet another government who has lied to them.

They would rather pay cheap labor instead of retaining American jobs that would in the long run benefit everybody. This is vicious cycle.

I do agree that some of the western culture has a sense of entitlement when it comes to technology and the development of alternative ideas. But history has shown that India among other countries has EXTREMELY capable and intelligent citizens who have contributed mass ammounts of inventions and ideas to science and this effort.

~Keeper

[edit on 5/11/2009 by tothetenthpower]

reply to post by 44soulslayer


Thanks for the Basics in Economics 101.

Who were and are the major investors in these competing economies?
Where did these jobs come from in the first place?

I have my own Computer shop now and am doing better than most who were let go from the company we worked for. The examples I gave were in Tech support. Our data base was taken and given to this particular location in India as their resolution data base. We did all the research and created that data base. So somebody there can just regurgitate it as support.

I understand what you're saying I'm not disagreeing with the politics of business but the little guy gets the beating then gets criticized when they speak up and are called Jimbob

reply to post by Kombatt98


America unemployment is at a 25 year high, people in America are losing their American dreams, we have a government that won the elections on the promises of hope and change.

And now we are slapped in the face while outsourcing more of America jobs that we don't even have?

The hell with developing countries America is in financial trouble or you have not been watching what goes on with the nations unsustainable deficit. Do you see any of those countries outsourcing their jobs to the US?

What is wrong with saving America jobs for American people.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
reply to post by Kombatt98

 

Yup, Picao84 clarified it well.

I meant that the brains behind the design in those industries are still Brits/ Americans.

There's a reason why India will never be able to touch German engineering jobs... its because their quality of design and execution is so high.

Sure, some aspects such as software etc may be outsourced (since India is a giant in computing), but the conceptual stages have yet to be outsourced.

The only sure way to job security is to become an innovator, within whatever field you specialise in. In the future if you're not an innovator, you will be a menial worker. The days of the "middle man" are limited.

Since you haven't experienced quality in any industry your insults can be easily ignored.

I agree a high education is great reward and offers greater opportunity.

Your personal insults are well crafted and pointed hatred at America is obvious. Too bad you failed there too.

If you call your overseas incompetent technical support you'll reap the benefits of outsourced help.

They outsourced for one reason only. Cheap labor. Personally I rewrote some DLL libraries in some Norton products (when they were still a respectable company with real product) when I worked there (based on complaints from customers) and sent them to the original programmers and got a kudo. The other 5 tech people on my team were highly qualified in diverse computer skills and paid well; Now they can get 50 outsourced clowns that can apologize really nice in a variety of languages including broken engrish and do absolutely nothing to help you. Wow big surprise there.

If you call any call center these days they are told number one above all; [color=gold] apologize, ALOT . Try it ... I'll hold.

... Did you make it through the menus??

Have you been in meetings with Directors and Chairmen that tout the ability to piss off customers and run them around until they finally give up?

I wouldn't work for them anyways. Send them overseas for all I care. When you understand that it has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with the bottom line, there's some wizbang marketing/economic adviser that gets big bucks to find anyway to outsource.

People working in America making $20 per hour are costing the company $40 an hour to retain... That's for benefits and perks/bonuses etc... sometimes more per worker.

No job is guaranteed. If you go by 44soulslayer (nice nick btw) you'd think there's no competition in his field. My ex-wife's husband that used to make $140,000 a year as a programmer lost his job in December. He has great credentials but he's so high on the 'programming' food chain it'll be hard for him to find work anytime soon. He wasn't told his job was outsourced but it wouldn't surprise me if it were.

I didn't intend for this to be a personal rant ... We have tons of jobs posting in my area right now after just quick check of 'help wanted'. Hands on medical care is big and cannot be outsourced at this time.

One last thought; having lived through the Silicon Valley boom all it took was for the gov't to relax immigration laws and while the boom boomed many Native Born Citizens saw their jobs (even in boom time) get taken over by cheap imported labor that considered $8 an hour ALOT of money.

The spiral into outsourcing has had a very long road with many contributing factors. People that voted for change are getting all kinds of it. There really wasn't a choice. This is just one more bump in the road until our gov't wises up.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by 44soulslayer

 

Thanks for the Basics in Economics 101.

Who were and are the major investors in these competing economies?
Where did these jobs come from in the first place?

I have my own Computer shop now and am doing better than most who were let go from the company we worked for. The examples I gave were in Tech support. Our data base was taken and given to this particular location in India as their resolution data base. We did all the research and created that data base. So somebody there can just regurgitate it as support.

I understand what you're saying I'm not disagreeing with the politics of business but the little guy gets the beating then gets criticized when they speak up and are called Jimbob

Absolutely. Been down that road of shuffling knowledge bases between companies and there's alot of grief but that's the job.
Either seeing the crap and inaccuracies of the previous team and creating a wondrously functional reference... or watching your hard work devoted to that knowledge base go away. Now that makes me think they used my team to create a great resource only to sell us down the road. No worries either way.

Good job on having a successful enterprise. That's what America is all about. It cannot be done anywhere else in the way that we do it.

I'm certain that we'll see even greater BS from this outsourced Presidency. I hope that he'll show his real Birth Certificate someday. I know that regular Americans that don't have an army of attorneys to block revelations are required to present theirs more and more often thanks to the Patriot Act.

reply to post by DrMattMaddix


I do not hate Americans. I hate people who bitch about outsourcing.

Your major gripe is about call centre workers having a funny accent and "not speaking proper english"... right, I'll grant you that. Perhaps an Indian call centre worker doesn't understand the job, and perhaps he cannot relate to the problems faced by the caller.

But what about KPO (Knowledge processed outsourcing)? KPO is stuff like innovative coding, tax auditing etc. In this field, the output is numerical in nature- there's a minimal amount of language skills involved. Why is it that Indian firms are taking in so many KPO jobs if they're all a bunch of uneducated third world retards?

A company is the highest form of a rational decision making entity. A company will not knowingly do something that is contrary to their interests. When a company finds that the results of outsourcing are detrimental, they reverse the trend. That's why NatWest bank and many others have brought call centres back to the UK.
On the other hand, KPO has been increasing at an exponential rate. When some Indian can audit your taxes at 1/10th of the rate, with a numerically accurate outcome, you simply cannot compete.

Yes corporations are greedy and self-serving, but why shouldn't they be? What obligation do they have to keep American employees in place simply because they are American? Quality is absolutely not an issue in KPO jobs- the output is either right or wrong... and the results speak for themselves as to what the companies think of Indian workmen.

This is rather a moot discussion though. If you have lost your job in the past, or are in danger of losing your job to outsourcing, you can never hope to analyse the situation impartially (understandably). The market will correct the situation on a global level, but in terms of the variables (ie people), each man must attempt to safeguard his own interests via branching into innovation.

reply to post by tothetenthpower

That's besides the point, the problem is that Obama was said to create Green Jobs IN America, to help his people with the rising costs and lack of work. Going green means getting your citizens working in the green field. These 22 thousand jobs do not help the US they help India, which is a good thing, however this presidency was sold on false pretexts.

It is a heck of a lot worse than just outsourcing of jobs. The people of America have been by betrayed by their own government.

American education has gone down the tubes.

"For 10 years, William Schmidt, a statistics professor at Michigan State University, has looked at how U.S. students stack up against students in other countries in math and science. "In fourth-grade, we start out pretty well, near the top of the distribution among countries; by eighth-grade, we're around average, and by 12th-grade, we're at the bottom of the heap, outperforming only two countries, Cyprus and South Africa."
:Source
Is it any wonder Corporations now import workers from other countries?

The worse is the REASON our "labor" costs are so high. (I am talking USA, Canada, EU, Australia...) We have been intentionally set up by our own governments to be fleeced.

  “it is said that there are 56 taxes on a loaf of bread by the time it reaches the consumer.”

Oh, the glories of free trade! Australia had emerged from World War II with one of the strong­est economies in the world, the highest standard of living, and it was totally self-sufficient with its broad base of small farms. Now sixty percent of the Australian-owned farming sector has been wiped out. In 1960, there were 300,000 farms; now there are not even 100,000. In 1997, the remaining farmers were quitting the land at the rate of 35 per week. Of the remainder, 80% were in debt, owing $18 billion to banks in mid-1996, an average of $133,000 per farm. Australia is now a debtor nation, almost entirely foreign-owned. source

From Canada we have an explanation of why Governments have gone into debt. Remember a sovereign nation has the RIGHT to create money to facilitate the exchange (barter) of goods among its people. That and protection from outside invasion and criminals within are the prime reasons for a government.

When I read this explanation the light bulb finally when on and I understood WHY Ron Paul calls for the FED to be abolished.

Money is Created by Banks: Evidence Given by Graham Towers


Q. But there is no question about it that banks create the medium of exchange?

Mr. Towers: That is right. That is what they are for... That is the Banking business, just in the same way that a steel plant makes steel. (p. 287) The manufacturing process consists of making a pen-and-ink or typewriter entry on a card in a book. That is all. (pp. 76 and 238) Each and every time a bank makes a loan (or purchases securities), new bank credit is created — new deposits — brand new money. (pp. 113 and 238) Broadly speaking, all new money comes out of a Bank in the form of loans. As loans are debts, then under the present system all money is debt. (p. 459)

Q. When $1,000,000 worth of bonds is presented (by the government) to the bank, a million dollars of new money or the equivalent is created?
Mr. Towers: Yes.

Q. Is it a fact that a million dollars of new money is created?
Mr. Towers: Yes. (p. 286)

Q. Will you tell me why a government with power to create money, should give that power away to a private monopoly, and then borrow that which parliament can create itself, back at interest, to the point of national bankruptcy?
Mr. Towers: If parliament wants to change the form of operating the banking system, then certainly that is within the power of parliament. (p. 394)

Another words the FED prints money and then collects interest (taxes on your labor) on the money from the government, instead of the government printing the money and putting it into circulation interest free. The money is also loaned out as mortgages, business loans and credit card loans. You know those credit cards with interest rates as high as 30% or more so you pay the bankers the entire amount in three years and STILL owe the principle!!!

Now that you understand that consider the amount money the bankers are collecting from interest rates of 5%,10,% or 30% on the following money they printed out of thin air!!! (the interest being your labor)

MONEY SUPPLY amount in circulation in the USA
Raw Data Source

1959 -- 50.1 billion
1963 -- 51.6 billion -- up $1.5 billion
1964 – 54.1 billion -- up $4 billion Under a 10% increase in five years
1974 -- 101 billion -- up $51 billion ( doubled in 15 yrs. gas prices doubled over night)
And the Money supply continued to double at approximately ten year intervals

1985 -- $205 billion -- up $103 billion
1994 -- $ 406 billion -- up $201 billion
2006 -- $808 billion -- up $402 billion
2008 --$831 billion -- up $23 billion from the 2006 figures


And by April of this year
2009: $1663 billion... up $921 billion

This is in response the mess made of the housing market: The Fed PRINTED close to a TRILLON dollars in a year, with Obama's blessing and thereby doubling the money supply. American labor will now have to pay that money back to the bankers along with interest.

This is the "money" being used to pay for the "green jobs" being outsourced to another country. I hope that explains WHY Americans are justifiably angry about the outsourcing.

As a foot note: In 1959 my Dad earned $3,000 dollars a year (min wage $1..15/hr) and that was a very good living. In 1974 I earned 5 cents an hour above minimum wage ($2.10/hr), about $4,300 a year, had no debt, owned a new car and put money in the bank. Wage wise Americans can not compete because of the inflation and taxes (last I checked mine were 64.5% for lower mid class) resulting from the counterfeit money printed by the feds and the government programs that counterfeit money supports. We now have 10% or less of the population actually producing product, 15% or more work in the government and the rest are lawyers accountants and sales clerks!



"Capitalists with government help are the worst of all economic phenomena." A. Rand

Rand was wrong, the absolute worst economic phenomena is "Capitalists with government help paid for by counterfeit money printed by Robber Baron Banksters"

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
But what about KPO (Knowledge processed outsourcing)? KPO is stuff like innovative coding, tax auditing etc. In this field, the output is numerical in nature- there's a minimal amount of language skills involved. Why is it that Indian firms are taking in so many KPO jobs if they're all a bunch of uneducated third world retards?

Nobody ever said they were any of that.

No. I'm not talking about just a call center here.

The problem is that the people who have the skills here the ones that got that ball rolling in the first place were passed over when less expensive locations were found. [Great for their bottom lines]Then it was only when the greedy CEOs reinvested in those locations that you saw that kind of growth. That could just have easily happened here in the states. We have the talent and the equipment. I remember talking to the owner, right after the first round of layoffs happened he was quite blunt it was the bottom line.

They knew it and had used us to set up the data base, the GUI and the resolution base here in the States we simply were just better at it at the time. The company I worked for had 5 locations, 3 in the states. Two on the East coast, NY and Baltimore one in San Francisco one in Glasgow, and another in India.

They only closed the 3 locations here in the states becuase it was simply too expensive to run but they would not shut us down until we had finished designing and running compatibility test with the hardware and software. Then they simply let everybody go when it was accomplished.

KPO jobs?
They stripped the jobs here in search of better profits before any of that could happen.

Critical Mass?









[edit on 12-5-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by SLAYER69


Ok, but what's fundamentally wrong with wanting to give the job to the cheapest applicant?

Basically, what goddamn obligation does a private enterprise have towards anyone but its shareholders?

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
Basically, what goddamn obligation does a private enterprise have towards anyone but its shareholders?

How times have changed.

It was not too long ago that that kind of mentality was considered unthinkable and taboo. Now it's considered acceptable. I could understand that if we did not pull our own weight and we ran in the red but we were the innovators that made that growth possible.

There was company loyalty and a connection between management and the workers that would create environments of prosperity, hard work and innovation. Now it's a get what you can while you can before it disappears.


[edit on 12-5-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by SLAYER69


I'm sorry but I just don't buy that.

If the people who were laid off were truly creative and innovative, why would they work for someone else rather than creating their own company (as you have done)?

Oh and for the record, companies and corporations have always been self-serving entities. Successful companies are only "nice" to employees they value... eg banks paying ridiculous bonuses to their staff. If an employee ceases to be useful, they cut them mercilessly. Such are the ways of business and indeed the world at large.

At the end of the day, you as an individual have to recognise that companies are not there to be nice to you, not to support you. You have to realise that you are only entitled to what you can earn by yourself! The communist manifesto was right about one thing- employment is slavery. You have to recognise that in order to escape it and have your work stand on its own merit.

When companies are "kind" to their employees needlessly, you get a situation such as the big automakers of America find themselves in presently. $100/hr for an autoworker... awfully nice of management to treat workers so well, wouldn't you agree? Of course the downside is that the industry collapses and the workers are totally out of a job.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
I'm sorry but I just don't buy that.

If the people who were laid off were truly creative and innovative, why would they work for someone else rather than creating their own company (as you have done)?

Well in the end it doesn't matter if you buy that or not. It's the way it happened.

I'll leave it at that and again...

Times sure have changed.

Originally posted by 44soulslayer

I do not hate Americans. I hate people who bitch about outsourcing.

I'm going to bitch about outsourcing AND I'm not 'entitled'.

Reread that as many times as you need to understand it.

I've worked with many immigrants from a variety of countries and learned their languages to get the job done. I have always had great business relations. I have no insecurities of my accomplishments.

There are, unfortunately, many Americans that believe they are 'entitled'. I know business and I know the bottom line counts. If you see that outsourcing is NOT necessary (which I believe I pointed out that we had 5 quality workers with happy customers, Now Symantec has 50 reps and a absolutely crappy reputation) yet they outsource anyways that's their business decision. I didn't hold my boss hostage as they do in France.

What I observed was, that from a business point, that I obvious don't understand, why it was necessary to outsource overseas and save very few dollars. Maybe saving enough for another payment on their new boat? So, if that's the case, trade 5 jobs (as in my example) for a boat payment.

I hope that brief example makes some sense. I don't hate outsourcing nor do I resent most business practices. A few of those practices seem to completely forsake humanity in lieu of nothing more than mindless blind pursuit of a freakin dollar.

On that thought... try this, (not really, I'm just saying) throw $1 (or 1£) bill on a busy street and watch peds risk their life through traffic to get it.

Just a reminder, I hate all people that think all Americans think they're entitled. There are many good, hard working, loyal American workers that keep this country running. I've worked with a bunch of lazy F#'s too; pulling their weight. After I've quit, they'll be found out when much less is getting done. LOL Those that 'work' that way can eat sh#t and die.



[edit on 5·14·09 by DrMattMaddix]

[edit on 5·14·09 by DrMattMaddix]

Here's a thought:

Let's import a bunch of workers from Mexico or Asia (bring their families along), pay them low wages and employ them instead of sending jobs overseas.

That way, the money will stay in the US and the previously-skilled but now unemployed Americans can move up a rung on the ladder and do the management and engineering, etc.

This will buy us a generation of time, at least. Then we can do it all over again with Euros and Indians as the workforce.

Bring Mohammed to the Mountain...