What constitutes an advanced civilization?

Originally posted by Harte
The Mayan civilization, for example, was an extremely savage one in a great many aspects, as were the Sumerian, Egyptian, and others.

Were they Savage for Savage sake?

I think they were savage with respect to human sacrifice but another consideration is that [and forgive the pun] they were killing two birds with one stone.

They had a "god" that needed daily sacrifices and their population may have gotten out of hand or they needed to eliminate their closest resource competitors.

Either way large amounts of daily sacrifices would do the trick it's a lot cheaper and easier than wars to control the populations growth or manage their limited resources.



[edit on 7-5-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by SLAYER69


Only problem is that they went to war to obtain captives for more sacrifices.
All ancient cultures were brutal by todays standards, some more so than others.
Its the sheer savagery of the way the meso americans sacrificed, not only war captives but thier own people, that we as a modern people have a hard time accepting.
Beyond the beheading and impalement, or the being tossed into a well or having your back broken or the ever so popular riping of the heart from the living body, the priests would skin people alive, then put on the skin while the victim was still alive watching.
many of the peoples of the med. basin and near east practiced human scarifice at some point or another, but they gave it up fairly early on.
And the sacrifices were considered to be the most precious thing that could be given to a god.
Many cultures adopted ritualistic sacrificial offerings, such a circumcision or the sacrifice of domestic animals.

reply to post by zazzafrazz

From what I can see AC wants to define 'advanced', not define 'civilization'...am I right or wrong AC?

You are still right along my way of thinking, and again you are putting it far better in writing than I do.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Harte
The Mayan civilization, for example, was an extremely savage one in a great many aspects, as were the Sumerian, Egyptian, and others.

Were they Savage for Savage sake?

Is any culture savage just for the sake of being savage?

I'd say not.

Individuals might be so, but as a culture, no.

The Maya (apparently) honestly believed that without their sacrifices, existence itself would come to an end.

Seems like a decent rationale for their savageness, if they truly believed it.

Harte

Advanced civilization to me would mean the most civilized and technologically advanced group of people in the current world.

Originally posted by punkinworks
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Only problem is that they went to war to obtain captives for more sacrifices.
All ancient cultures were brutal by todays standards, some more so than others.

No actually that is all part of eliminating the "resource" competition.

Originally posted by FritosBBQTwist
Advanced civilization to me would mean the most civilized and technologically advanced group of people in the current world.

See that's the problem. "WE" are basing whether they were "Savage" by our standards. To them it was a natural way of existing.

It all depends on your perspective I guess.

See that's the problem. "WE" are basing whether they were "Savage" by our standards. To them it was a natural way of existing.

It all depends on your perspective I guess.

Well the question was asked to US, not a 1500 year old Maya indian or something. So that it depends on perspective is rather obvious.

But you can easily compare with contemporary cultures/civilizations too. There where no worldwide *need* to slaughter people to make the sun move, so in comparison they where rather savage.

reply to post by merka



Yeah I agree it was too wide spread to get an accurate account of just how many cultures around the world have done it

Human sacrifice

* 1 Evolution and context
* 2 History by region
o 2.1 Ancient Near East
+ 2.1.1 Ancient Egypt
+ 2.1.2 Mesopotamia
+ 2.1.3 Levant
+ 2.1.4 Phoenicia
o 2.2 Europe
+ 2.2.1 Neolithic Europe
+ 2.2.2 Greco-Roman Antiquity
+ 2.2.3 Celts
+ 2.2.4 Germanic peoples
+ 2.2.5 Slavic peoples
o 2.3 China
o 2.4 India
o 2.5 Pacific
o 2.6 Pre-Columbian Americas
+ 2.6.1 Mesoamerica
+ 2.6.2 South America
+ 2.6.3 North America
o 2.7 West Africa
* 3 Prohibition in major religions
o 3.1 Judaism
o 3.2 Christianity
o 3.3 Islam
o 3.4 Eastern religions
o 3.5 Blood libel
* 4 Contemporary human sacrifice
o 4.1 India
o 4.2 Sub-Saharan Africa
o 4.3 Ritual murder

reply to post by merka



Here is one of my favorites.

A wicker man, that, according to Caesar, was used to sacrifice humans to the gods.

Celts
Main article: Celts and human sacrifice

As written in Roman sources, Celtic Druids engaged extensively in human sacrifice.[27] According to Julius Caesar, the slaves and dependants of Gauls of rank would be burnt along with the body of their master as part of his funerary rites.[28] He also describes how they built wicker figures that were filled with living humans and then burned.[29] It is known that druids at least supervised sacrifices of some kind. According to Cassius Dio, Boudica's forces impaled Roman captives during her rebellion against the Roman occupation, to the accompaniment of revellery and sacrifices in the sacred groves of Andate.[30] Some modern-day scholars question the accuracy of these accounts, as they invariably come from hostile (Roman or Greek) sources.[31] Different gods reportedly required different kind of sacrifices. Victims meant for Esus were hung, those meant for Taranis immolated and those for Teutates drowned. Some, like the Lindow Man, may have gone to their deaths willingly.

In my opinion, this is a question of pure philosophical belief.

What I believe is a advanced civilization is one that does not destroy themselves or the place they live, and is well respected and can protect themselves, but know how to use power when seen fit.

However, if advanced enough, why live in this dimension?

Go to your happy place.

=D

reply to post by merka

There where no worldwide *need* to slaughter people to make the sun move, so in comparison they where rather savage.

In comparison to what?
I wont go back through the Wests timeline such as the Inquisition, or the GENOCIDE of the Indigenous popluation of the Americas. WHy was their cutting out of a heart so much worse than the slaughter of them all? Why is slaughter for land, power and gold, more civlised than if you are killing for a cultural purpose? You've lost me. The attrocities carried out during colonialism are beyond belief, it is belived that 30-40 million people were killed or enslaved by European colonialism. How very civilised and unsavage of them.

I would collapse the ATS server if i listed the savagery of 'civilsed ' societies. So lets stick with 20 century to now.

Genocide in Bosnia: search srebrenica
Genocide in the Sudan
The Indigenous Asutralians Stolen generation
Jewish Holocaust
Stalins slaughter of 20 million Russians and displacement of 28 million
Zionism and Palestinie genocide
Husseins genocide of Kurds
British Genocide of millions in India and Malaysia
The genocide of Muslims in India
Khmer Ruge and Polpott in the Killing fields
The genocides in India/Africa and Asia through deliberate food shortages causing stavation
Over 1 million Iraquis killed since the US led invasion

World War 1 / 8 500 000 soldiers were killed from all nations but when you add civilians killed its is over 20 000 000 killed

World War 2 over 60 million killed

I could go on but surely you get my point? Your definition of 'savagery' and 'civilsed' needs to be reassessed. So when I compare them as you have asked, I think we come out a little worse.





Edit to add quote





[edit on 10-5-2009 by zazzafrazz]

Originally posted by zazzafrazz
In comparison to what?

Contemporary cultures/civilizations. You know, what I said the sentence before what you quoted and cut off and then went on a rant about WW2 and the like

The world was a savage place back then just as it is now, but I'm still fairly sure that somewhere was towns and cities where people lived in peace, raised the crops and enjoyed their life (or we sitting at home playing Xbox, whatever). Being savage doesnt exlude advanced. If highly advanced aliens came and wiped out all human life on earth I wouldnt exactly call them friendly. I'd call them savage. Well I would be dead, but you get the idea.

[edit on 10-5-2009 by merka]

reply to post by merka


Yes and I brought it to a comparison study on advanced modern civilisation just s you asked, not a rant. They were no more savage than us today, whilst they may not have had xboxs, they certainly had recreation, romance and the rest of the good stuff that all humans enjoy.
My point is that cutting out hearts to make the sun move doesnt makes them 'more savage in comparison', yes it is was savage, but so was the slaughter of them for a shiny thing called gold, that was no less savage. So when I compare them to not only their contemporary colonisers/enslavers/murderers as well as modern societies, I see savagery all the same everywhere, just wears a different 'savage' costume.






[edit on 10-5-2009 by zazzafrazz]

reply to post by AlienCarnage


I don't think you're advanced until you re-write your code.
So, we are not advanced quite yet (selective breeding doesn't count) but once we really go for genetic engineering, then we will be.
Without the re-write, you are just playing out the cards you were dealt, chugging down the tracks to the next train station. Once you do a thorough rewrite (several different simultaneous rewrites) then you have truly risen above your initial random arbitrary configuration/situation...only then, it seems to me, do you deserve to be considered advanced.
I guess if you could obtain physical immortality, without a rewrite, I would count that as sufficiently transcending your initial conditions to be advanced, too...I have no big intellectual rationale for why to draw the line at these points, however...They just seem to me to stand out...

reply to post by zazzafrazz


Dont forget the Roman Gladiators all that slicing and dicing.

OH wait or was that a sport? Anyway nice place to take the wife and kids for a nice Sunday outing. Throw another Christian to the lions.




[edit on 10-5-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by SLAYER69


Hey slayer, You are soooo right! who needs XBOX when you have such fun things to do like :

stonings


The Colloseum family fun Park


witch murders

I think once a civilization achieves a level of technological and sociopolitical achievement they've become as advanced as possible. Are we inhabitants of modern civilization any better or more advanced than the ancient civilizations that discovered the wheel or invented the city-state governments? A thousand years from now we might be using anti-gravity and faster-than-light travel, yet we would still be at the same mentality level we are now - in other words, no more advanced a civilization than what we have now, or in the distant past.

Until humankind becomes a transcendent being that exists as a society or culture on a higher plane, then we are the pinnacle of civilization. Sad isn't it?

edit to delete what seems less humorous upon scrutiny. hey OP fix up your spelling of civilization, (cicilization) in the OP title thread. it made me giggle.

[edit on 11/5/2009 by Inkrinhuminge]

reply to post by Inkrinhuminge

hey OP fix up your spelling of civilization, (cicilization) in the OP title thread. it made me giggle.

Whoa, you just discovered what was right under our noses, the number one indicator of an advanced civilization - SPELLCHECK!