The Torture Argument - Please Read!

6 times a day? That’s not interrogation, that’s inquisition.
Add to that sleep deprivation and you have a recipe for failure.
Ask anybody with any authoritative knowledge on the subject and they will tell you that after a few days, even perfectly sane people will exhibit all the signs of schizophrenia. Is that someone you expect to get any kind of good info from?
You don’t have to look any further than our own legal system to see that if you keep someone up for 24 hours of intense questioning, not even torture, just intense questioning, you will convince them they somehow committed the murder.

reply to post by ANNED

Anned, you are describing exactly what I was referring to in other threads when I used the term, "extreme psychological dislocation."

Stress is not torture.

It's miserable, it can scare you half to death, but there is no blood, therefore, no foul.

Waterboarding is not torture. It's a form of extreme psychological dislocation. They think they're going to drown. They think they're going to pass out. They think they're going to choke.

Not going to happen, but they don't know it.

Feels like it, looks like it, smell like it, sounds like it, but then again, no physical life threat.

It's mostly in the head since they're probably scared half to death to be blindfolded and bound anyway.

No blood, no foul.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
By the way, no one seems to have answered this in full;

Please tell me what you would do if you was in the room with the arrested kidnapper and he wasn't telling you the location of your child? Would you politely inform him he wasn't being very fair and could he please let you know where your kid was? Get real!

???

Me personally? I'd be beating the guy to death. But thats why I'm not allowed to do it.

reply to post by dooper


400 amps to the testicles doesn't draw blood either.

reply to post by dooper


Your 110% correct, and thats why I don't have a problem with it going on. If it scares them (which it will) and they give honest information then happy days!

Like I mentioned before, if you want to hear about torture then read what the Iraqi's did to Andy McNabb.

reply to post by Grimstad


400 amps will kill anyone instantly.

On the other hand, 40,000 volts plus, with milliamperage, stuck in a wet ear will not harm the person in any manner, yet is most lubricating in the realm of inducing focused conversation.

An extended spark plug wire is field expedient.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
By the way, no one seems to have answered this in full;

Please tell me what you would do if you was in the room with the arrested kidnapper and he wasn't telling you the location of your child? Would you politely inform him he wasn't being very fair and could he please let you know where your kid was? Get real!

???

Of course every parent in that particular case would do whatever it took to get the info, that is a human reaction that can't be avoided, but we expect better as a society/country as a whole. I expect my country to behave better than just bowing to every base animal instinct.

Kind of like if you catch another man in bed with your wife, your human instinct may be to beat him senseless, but we expect better as a society.

It's also a very contrived scenario that will be very rare or never appear in practice. It's very rare to get a situation this black and white, most of the time, someone will be arrested on _suspicion_ of something. You can't just torture someone based on suspicion. Innocent until proven uilty, and all that old nonsense. There have also been cases in the past where people arrested have confessed to crimes they didn't commit, due to some mental issue.

Even in the classic 'ticking bomb' scenario you present, it becomes a problem of a slippery slope, if it does work once, there will be some who argue and push for it to be used more, and in lesser cases, and they will have some justification that will convince many.. It worked here, so why not use it elsewhere. As Hitchens would say, before you know it, you are a banana republic.

reply to post by RubberBaron


Rubber, I appreciate your point of view on this. I truly do.

But our enemies, specifically Islamic fundamentalists, have no idea of what you're talking about.

Their idea of entertainment is to break out the cameras and videotape cutting off heads while the person is still alive. Not a soldier. Civilians.

You cannot reason with them, you cannot appeal to their sense of fair play, you cannot rely on their hearts being compassionate. They will use any and all means, simply because they can.

Contrary to common perception, the task of information gathering is not for hard men. Quite the opposite. Men of well-founded character, men of conviction, men with a strong sense of right and wrong.

Will an occasional innocent get caught up in the roundup? Quite likely. But at the end of the day, all interrogated get to walk back to their cells under their own power.

Captives of our enemies can't.

And you're not going to do anything to make them any worse than they already are.

That's a proven.

reply to post by dooper


So we should compromise our morals, just because our enemy appears to have none itself?

I disagree. Once we give up our morals, we have little left, a moral degeneration in our leadership will spread across the whole populace within time, and one moral degeneration will lead to another.

We should always take the high road, and take a stand against that which we see as disgusting. We may suffer some short term losses by doing this, but if we don't, the long term loss will be much greater, a widespread demoralization and degeneration

Originally posted by Death_Kron
Okay then people, no torture yeah?

So how do we get the information from the terrorists without hurting them mentally or physically? Ask them politely?

How on earth people can come on here and say its wrong to harm TERRORIST'S is beyond me!

I take it from the response's that no-one who has answered has lost a loved one due to a terrorist attack ?

Please explain how torturing a sadistic, evil and religiously driven psychopath who is hell bent on killing as many people as he can is wrong ?

You're not seeing the big picture.
How do we know who is the evil psychopath?
Because if we don't know, then we're torturing, very possibly, innocent people.
Are you OK with that? Torturing innocent people?

reply to post by RubberBaron


Those short term losses you're mentioning that would be acceptable, could be a city.

And by your logic, losing a city, or even thousands of people as we lost in the Trade Towers is a more acceptable moral "loss" than harsh interrogation techniques where there is no blood involved?

I would suggest sir, your values are terribly skewered.

No one asked you to compromise your morals. There are those strong enough to do what is required, and still maintain their moral centers.

God help us against moralists.

Their morals, their values. They would prefer to bury thousands of innocents while being able to cling to the higher road.

Holy crap!

reply to post by dooper


Well, I can see that you truly believe that the ends justify the means in the case of torture. I would disagree, and feel that there are still other means to achieve our ends, such as strong national defense, regular interrogation, legitimate intelligence apparatus and so on, but I feel I've put my case as I see it, and to squabble further would just be time wasted on arguing value judgments.

Thanks for your thoughts though, I appreciated them even though I cannot agree.

I bet you would much rather the government of your country or a country of your allies to do this as to prevent another attack or if they have suspicion get a headsup if they were correct, than if these people were taking your people and doing it.

Human rights have been violated alot over recent history, its not going to stop because posters on a forum say so

Originally posted by MrVertigo
reply to post by Death_Kron

 

Unfortunately, the war on terror will not be won by being more ethical or moral.

I think this is where you are dead wrong. The war on terror is an ideological conflict.
The only way that you will ever remove the threat of terrorism is by "winning hearts and minds". By not making them hate you anymore.

As long as America is viewed as an evil aggressor in the Middle East there will be people willing to blow themselves up for a cause, out of hatred desperation or what have you.

Torturing people will only continue the cycle of hatred and prove to any potential terrorists that America is indeed evil and should be destroyed.

What if,that's the point? to continue to maintain the conflict in order to have someone to have people to fight against? let's never forget what a windfall the war on terror is to many people torture is just one of many ways to make sure that the money continues to roll in for the intell shops and Military/Industrial complex.

reply to post by jfj123


Thats easy military combatants are people shooting at you, Then if they surrendered they get rounded up for interrogation. The people you see in internment camps aren't innocent they are there for shooting at soldiers who captured them or they were in the same location as people shooting at them. Even hear in the US we recognize if you stand there and watch your buddy kill someone your an accessory. Do not buy that they were doing humanitarian aid in the middle of a terrorist training camp.

Bottom line i did have to learn about interrogation when i was in the military and here is the key. Physical harm rarely gets results however psychological torture cab get very reliable information. There fears stay with them eventually they break the mind can be a very scary place. We cant rely on morality or guilt they don't think what they doing wrong its mandated by there god! So appealing to there good nature is useless and quite frankly a joke.

There is truly only 4 main interrogation option greed,love,moral and fear. With a person that believes they are in love with there god and was commanded by them to do this that rules out the 1st 3 options. I personally was subjected to torture so we could understand how to target fears. I was placed in a dark cell they had a tape playing just loud enough to hear it was a heart beat. Day 1 i know its a tape no problem day 2 starts to get a little unnerving day 3 I was convinced there was something else in the cell and my mind was going wild because it starts making up other sounds like whispers scratching.To be honest its very effective because i knew i only had 3 days and wasn't going back in but if i didn't id have to say very effective.

You just cant ask nicely and hope they tell you i will say information gathered thou interrogations has saved lives.

[edit on 4/26/09 by dragonridr]

Originally posted by jfj123

Originally posted by Death_Kron
Okay then people, no torture yeah?

So how do we get the information from the terrorists without hurting them mentally or physically? Ask them politely?

How on earth people can come on here and say its wrong to harm TERRORIST'S is beyond me!

I take it from the response's that no-one who has answered has lost a loved one due to a terrorist attack ?

Please explain how torturing a sadistic, evil and religiously driven psychopath who is hell bent on killing as many people as he can is wrong ?

You're not seeing the big picture.
How do we know who is the evil psychopath?
Because if we don't know, then we're torturing, very possibly, innocent people.
Are you OK with that? Torturing innocent people?

If you read my original post you will find that I have already said that I do not agree with the torture of innocent people.

I have also already mentioned I'm not particularly sure how to determine who is the terrorist and who isn't but lets be honest it can't really be that hard can it?

People make out that US troops are swarming around, picking up people off the streets, throwing them into a prison and torturing them whether theyre innocent or not. Do you really believe thats how its being done?

I'll admit I personally don't know myself how it works but surely there must be some kind of protocol, there must be sufficient reason to believe someone is a terrorist in the first place.

I don't understand why you think its "very possible" that the individuals are innocent, on the contrary its more likely their guilty - i.e. thats the reason they have been captured, due to the suspicion that they are a terrorist.

Also I'm pretty sure that this "torture" isn't exactly the first thing thats done to these guys, its going to be used in situations where the suspect isn't coming forward with the information.

Yes I know what your about to say, "well if the person is innocent then they won't have any information to come forward with"

That's very true and unfortunately, like everything in life, nothing is 100% perfect and its probable talking in terms of statistics that some innocent people maybe captured. Personally, I can't see how this situation would arise but I suppose everyone makes mistakes.

Hopefully the guys in charge have the ability to genuinely assess whether someone is guilty or not, this should be done before any form of "torture" commences.

I think its you who isn't seeing the big picture, if placing a terrorist driven by religious hate (who wants to bomb and kill innocent people) in a room for a couple of days and depriving him of sleep, if thats helps save lives then I'm all for it and don't see why anyone wouldn't be.

Thought I'd add a video about Andy McNab discussing how to survive interrogation and torture:

www.videojug.com...

By the way in this video it doesn't discuss electrocution, burning, starving, sexual abuse etc

You know, the real torture methods.

Also thought I'd add the "CIA Enhanced Interrogation Techniques":

"1. Grab: the interrogator grabs a suspect's shirt front and shakes him.

2. Slap: an open-handed slap to produce fear and some pain.

3. Belly Slap: a hard slap to the stomach with an open hand. This is designed to be painful but not to cause injury. A punch is said to have been ruled out by doctors.


4. Standing: Prisoners stand for 40 hours and more, shackled to the floor. Said to be effective, it also denies them sleep and is part of a process known as sensory deprivation ( this was a technique used by British forces in Northern Ireland for a time until it was stopped).

5. Cold Cell: a prisoner is made to stand naked in a cold, though not freezing, cell and doused with water.

6. Water Boarding: the prisoner is bound to a board with feet raised, and cellophane wrapped round his head. Water is poured onto his face and is said to produce a fear of drowning which leads to a rapid demand for the suffering to end. "

So now grabbing someones shirt and slapping them in the belly is a form of torture? Pathetic.


[edit on 26/4/09 by Death_Kron]

Originally posted by Death_Kron
You want to see your own citizens prosecuted for hurting the people that have attacked your country? Please explain this.

I want to see torturers prosecuted to the full extent of US and international law, without regard to their country of citizenship.

The US is a voluntary signatory to numerous international agreements banning torture. And in fact, the US was a driving force behind creation of those agreements. And US domestic law also prohibits torture.

Nearly all US politicians, and many US citizens make much of the different, special nature of the United States. Yet these same politicians and citizens are now supporting torture. This is in direct violation of US and international law, and totally destroys the credibility of the US as being 'different' than other countries... we are now right up there with the countries and governments that torture. Including the terrorists that also torture.

In regard to your hypothetical scenario, let me propose another one:

The US is invaded by China, to 'liberate' us from the despotic repressive government of Barak Obama. Incidentally, the claim of liberation by invaders is a common theme to justify invasions.

Anyway, your 17 year old sister happens to be down at the local 7-11 when a group of Chinese soldiers comes by, and arrests everybody at that location because of suspicion of activity by insurgents there. And they shoot a couple of the people there because they do not immediately follow the orders being screamed at them in Chinese by Chinese soldiers... since none of them speak Chinese.

So they take your sister to detention. They think she knows something, after all, she was at the insurgent hotbed. So they begin torturing her. And raping her. Repeatedly. Of course, since she is totally innocent of any conspiracy, she can't tell them anything they want to hear. And eventually, after some days of horror, she dies. That's what they call tortured to death. This has happened to prisoners under US control.

So. Now how do you feel about that? Still in favor of torture? Think maybe you might want to go gunning after Chinese military in our country? Maybe cut somebody's head off?

Torture degrades not only the recipient, but also degrades the torturer. And the torturer's country. And the fact that this is even under discussion shows how far the US has fallen from what made this country what it was, and should still be.

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic

Originally posted by Death_Kron
You want to see your own citizens prosecuted for hurting the people that have attacked your country? Please explain this.

I want to see torturers prosecuted to the full extent of US and international law, without regard to their country of citizenship.

The US is a voluntary signatory to numerous international agreements banning torture. And in fact, the US was a driving force behind creation of those agreements. And US domestic law also prohibits torture.

Nearly all US politicians, and many US citizens make much of the different, special nature of the United States. Yet these same politicians and citizens are now supporting torture. This is in direct violation of US and international law, and totally destroys the credibility of the US as being 'different' than other countries... we are now right up there with the countries and governments that torture. Including the terrorists that also torture.

In regard to your hypothetical scenario, let me propose another one:

The US is invaded by China, to 'liberate' us from the despotic repressive government of Barak Obama. Incidentally, the claim of liberation by invaders is a common theme to justify invasions.

Anyway, your 17 year old sister happens to be down at the local 7-11 when a group of Chinese soldiers comes by, and arrests everybody at that location because of suspicion of activity by insurgents there. And they shoot a couple of the people there because they do not immediately follow the orders being screamed at them in Chinese by Chinese soldiers... since none of them speak Chinese.

So they take your sister to detention. They think she knows something, after all, she was at the insurgent hotbed. So they begin torturing her. And raping her. Repeatedly. Of course, since she is totally innocent of any conspiracy, she can't tell them anything they want to hear. And eventually, after some days of horror, she dies. That's what they call tortured to death. This has happened to prisoners under US control.

So. Now how do you feel about that? Still in favor of torture? Think maybe you might want to go gunning after Chinese military in our country? Maybe cut somebody's head off?

Torture degrades not only the recipient, but also degrades the torturer. And the torturer's country. And the fact that this is even under discussion shows how far the US has fallen from what made this country what it was, and should still be.

Your missing my point entirely, I have said numerous times in this thread that I do NOT condone/advocate or want innocent people to be harmed. Maybe some will as victims of circumstance but who is to blame? The torturers? Or the intelligence analysts?

I don't understand why the vast majority of people on here seem to assume that the US is plucking people off the streets and torturing them willy nilly.

As I said before there must be some sort of protocol with regards to who gets "tortured" and who doesn't.

I also like the fact that NO ONE in this thread has justified how "the belly slap" is a form of torture, it simply isn't! Watch the video I posted...

The hypothetical situation you described above is all fine and dandy although it isn't happening, what US troops have been raping middle eastern 17 year olds???

Lets turn your above scenario and look at it in a different way, said 17 year old female was one of the terrorists who planned an attack that killed your son? How would you feel then?

I'll ask you and all the seemingly do-gooders in this thread, how do we get the information we need from GUILTY terrorists?

By guilty I mean people who are terrorists, the ones that are guilty. I'm not talking about innocents.