US Torture (warning, graphic)

The thing that gets me...

Any of us could be classified as a terrorist taken in the middle of the night and tortured for crimes not commited. No trial to prove if we are guilty/innocent. And yet still can be tortured. (I posted last night about some phone calls to/from my bestfriend boy where we discussed, depleted uranium, fusion, anti matter, gattling guns, smartbombs, doomsday weapons for the short list. Taken at face value I too could have been classified as a terrorist. Not as the eve player I am.. but a terrorist. With no way to prove I was talking about a game)

How do we know these people had ANYTHING to do with terrorist acts? We dont... and the people doing the torture dont either. Thats the scary part. Wheres the proof they did anything wrong?

Just my 2 pennies.

Hugs,
Dax

Originally posted by Doom and Gloom
reply to post by jaamaan

 

What you fail to understand is the difference of culture. These children from the time they are very young are taught and trained to be terrorists and killers. These Children, are as deadly as an adult, even more so because we pansy Americans fail to think that a child could possibly do such terrible things.

What do you presume to do to end this conflict? I am just seeking what you feel is the most valid way to solve these problems.

Well at first this is not a thread on how i think to end this conflict.

And i think my understanding of the differences in culture is not as bad as you try to imply.
But from what i get from your post is that you do not realy understand them as well as you seem to claim.

Your post implies that all these children from different cultures could be " taught and trained to be terrorists and killers."
Do you think we should torture all children from cultures we dont understand just in case they are beeing trained as terrorists ?

Dont you think that most children deserve at least a fair trail before they would be tortured for more information, and find out if they are guilty in the first place?

With your logic any body's children can be held for terrorism charges and tortured, including your own, i you have some, without any fair trail.
And that is my whole point.
If we let these governments torture people and children with out any trail or fair hearing than it could be our own turn very soon under the same "laws"

The first one looks like the guy took a hit prior to capture. If anyone cared to notice, his wound was bandaged with a battle dressing.

The one of the guy being dragged behind a M113 was from Vietnam.

And the ones of the prisoners in the aircraft looks like they had them set up for "assault seating". You just run some cargo straps across the floor of the cargo hold, slide underneath one and hang on. Sorry, no first class leather airline seats on military airlifters.

Originally posted by audas
Soldiers are soldiers because without doubt they are the most intellectually challenged of us all - it is an historical fact, the poorest, most ignorant and ill educated are the cannon fodder of history. The intelligent ones are those who send you there, or argue against it from the halls of academia.

You spewage is simply that. Furthermore, you, as with most of your far left hate spewing, anti-military nutcases, simply continue to perpetuate a myth. I served 12 frakin years in varying unknown and known conflict zones, you? I have recently acquired ABD status in my doctoral candidacy. Intellectually challenged my arse. Try again, winger.

Bravery and loyalty are not noble causes, they are not worthy, they are simply there to con you into doing the evil deeds of by men blinded by power.

Nice philosophical rhetoric from one who has no clue what noble causes, bravery, and/or loyalty are.

Every lowly grunt always believes their cause is just, their nation the greatest, their purpose righteous, yet how can every war, every side, the tens of thousands of ideological positions all be the one truth. They can't.

And every grunt has people like you that second guess their every move and action. Being an armchair general or Monday morning quarterbacking from the comfort of your home must be a luxury secured by those grunts for ya, huh?

So you are not better than anyone else becuase you are American, you are not wiser becuase you have been used by people more cunning than you, and you are not nobler because you have fallen victim to histories greatest disease and murdered for the just cause.

So say you? zOmg, you pwnzzor.

Do you wish the American journalist in Iran be tortured like this ? The two women in North Korea ? I doubt that - what you have no idea about (amongst the many) is that JUSTICE is UNIVERSAL -

Justice is not universal except in far left unicorn and rainbow dreams.

[edit on 24-4-2009 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by jerico65
The first one looks like the guy took a hit prior to capture. If anyone cared to notice, his wound was bandaged with a battle dressing.

The one of the guy being dragged behind a M113 was from Vietnam.

And the ones of the prisoners in the aircraft looks like they had them set up for "assault seating". You just run some cargo straps across the floor of the cargo hold, slide underneath one and hang on. Sorry, no first class leather airline seats on military airlifters.

Yeah right.

The first one looks like some one just undressed him and kicked him until he was bended over on the floor from pain.

And indeed the one beeing dragged behind the m113 is from vietnam.

The cargo plane.
Maybe you should read up on what a "stress position" can do to you, specialy after 20 hours or so on a plane.
Not very funny actualy, you should give it a try.

Originally posted by Doom and Gloom
reply to post by audas

 

Historically your are correct. Present day you are incorrect. Your assumption that our armed forces are a bunch of retarded, poverty stricken, high school drop outs is very insulting.

But true.
The intelligence is in the senior command structure, intel - unfortunately the reality is that the offer of health care and education, the recruitment of kids still in school is rife. Not to say there isn't the odd bright bead in there, but rare.
Finally, fundamentally and most importantly - intelligent people don't go to war.

Originally posted by smallpeeps
"All soldiers of the US must now be aware that they will suffer harder at the hands of the enemy thanks to the actions of their government in using torture, BUT that is an acceptable evil, which the infantry must shoulder, to preserve American way of life. If they get drills inserted in their bones and flesh, it is so that "Others may live". Even if they feel more fear and pressure in the event of their capture, it is the correct path which we have chosen in being torturers because it will preserve our nation, though it may create hell for the average captured soldier. It is more important for us to create the atmosphere of fear for the enemy, than to make it easier on the actual fighting American soldier who risks capture."
Is that how you'd phrase it, more or less?

I think it gets harder to suffer more than having your body set on fire, dragged through the dirt streets, tethered to a jeep by your head, and then your desecrated body hanged from a bridge. I think it is a little harder to suffer more than being starved, catching dysentary, being burned with cigarettes, appendages cut off, bamboo shoots shoved up fingernails. They have no farther they can go. We do. That is the difference. We are still "tame" according to them. Where's the outcry that the VCs tortured our soldiers? That the Somalis, Taliban, and AQIZ torture our soldiers? Oh, we do it to them, so it's okay to do it to us. Is that correct? Isn't that as hypocritical as saying, "They do it, so why can't we?"

Originally posted by audas
Soldiers are soldiers because without doubt they are the most intellectually challenged of us all - it is an historical fact, the poorest, most ignorant and ill educated are the cannon fodder of history. The intelligent ones are those who send you there, or argue against it from the halls of academia.

You are quite arrogant, aren't you? Again, I am a college student. I am also a soldier. I resent your implication that I am "poor, ignorant, and uneducated." Perhaps you are the ignorant one here.

Originally posted by audasBravery and loyalty are not noble causes, they are not worthy, they are simply there to con you into doing the evil deeds of by men blinded by power.

You are also ignorant if you feel that ANY American soldier will tell you he is brave. He is simply performing his duty. Bravery is going above and beyond the call of duty, not performing what you signed up to do. No soldier would accept you calling them "brave," nor would they expect you to. Therefore, your argument is invalid.

Originally posted by audas
Every lowly grunt always believes their cause is just, their nation the greatest, their purpose righteous, yet how can every war, every side, the tens of thousands of ideological positions all be the one truth. They can't.

Seems like you follow the same philosophy.

Originally posted by audasSo you are not better than anyone else becuase you are American, you are not wiser becuase you have been used by people more cunning than you, and you are not nobler because you have fallen victim to histories greatest disease and murdered for the just cause.

No one said any of this. No one assumed this, except you. Perhaps you are envious or have some sort of complex?

Originally posted by audas
Do you wish the American journalist in Iran be tortured like this ? The two women in North Korea ? I doubt that - what you have no idea about (amongst the many) is that JUSTICE is UNIVERSAL -

So you're saying that it's justice if I they do it to us, but if we do it to them, it's not?

Originally posted by Highground
I think it gets harder to suffer more than having your body set on fire, dragged through the dirt streets, tethered to a jeep by your head, and then your desecrated body hanged from a bridge. I think it is a little harder to suffer more than being starved, catching dysentary, being burned with cigarettes, appendages cut off, bamboo shoots shoved up fingernails. They have no farther they can go. We do. That is the difference. We are still "tame" according to them. Where's the outcry that the VCs tortured our soldiers? That the Somalis, Taliban, and AQIZ torture our soldiers? Oh, we do it to them, so it's okay to do it to us. Is that correct? Isn't that as hypocritical as saying, "They do it, so why can't we?"

There has been plenty of outcry about the tortured soldiers that where captured in Vietnam and it is for sure just as discusting as what the US is doing now to their prisoners of war.
That is the whole point of this thread.

Originally posted by jaamaan

Originally posted by Highground
I think it gets harder to suffer more than having your body set on fire, dragged through the dirt streets, tethered to a jeep by your head, and then your desecrated body hanged from a bridge. I think it is a little harder to suffer more than being starved, catching dysentary, being burned with cigarettes, appendages cut off, bamboo shoots shoved up fingernails. They have no farther they can go. We do. That is the difference. We are still "tame" according to them. Where's the outcry that the VCs tortured our soldiers? That the Somalis, Taliban, and AQIZ torture our soldiers? Oh, we do it to them, so it's okay to do it to us. Is that correct? Isn't that as hypocritical as saying, "They do it, so why can't we?"

There has been plenty of outcry about the tortured soldiers that where captured in Vietnam and it is for sure just as discusting as what the US is doing now to their prisoners of war.
That is the whole point of this thread.

Funny, I remember our soldiers being called pigs, warmongers, and were spit on when they returned. There was a tremendous "LOVE NOT WAR" effort, and that the soldiers all got what they deserved. Or am I wrong?

Originally posted by Highground

Funny, I remember our soldiers being called pigs, warmongers, and were spit on when they returned. There was a tremendous "LOVE NOT WAR" effort, and that the soldiers all got what they deserved. Or am I wrong?

I am sorry, i do not see what is funny here.

What i mean is that i have seen many documentaries and movies showing what was done to the US soldiers in camps in Vietnam.
I was to young back than but i have seen quite a lot of material that was trying to point out the suffering that these men went trough.

Personaly i believe the soldiers in these wars are victims to, i a different way but still.

Do you think that the American people will be more forgiving than back than after they see the torture pictures.


[edit on 24-4-2009 by jaamaan]

In this conflict we have now, We have to parts who claim that the other part is the Terrorist.

Of course We are going to justify our goals. Even torture. Because we believe we are on the right side in this conflict.

Don't you think that the terrorist will claim the same right to justify their goals!
They are on the other side supporting their goal. In their whew we are the terrorists. And they will torture and kill us, because they think that what they are doing is the right thing to.

I think its a show of weakness that a superpower like the US/NATO would have to go as far as Torture. To get some doubtful information.

With torture there is a 50/50 chance you will get a lie. And a lie can kill innocent civilians.

There is also a 50/50 chance you will get a lie if you don't torture. And you would still kill innocent civilians.

So do we torture to get 50/50 facts or do we do it just to let out some steam?
Or some personal justification of some sort.



[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Have you served?
Have you engaged any aspect of terrorism or Islamic extremism?
For most of the military personnel in theatre, they would simply counter with "Bring it; the more of you scum removed from the face of the earth, the better off the vast majority of us will be."

Let me answer your questions...

Yes, I have served, for a long time. Not in USA military, but it is IRRELEVANT.

Yes, I fought against some aspects of terrorism, mostly domestic based.

As a matter a fact, civil war in my region (I was in regular police force then) started by Croatian (who are Christians BTW) right wing nuts by slamming 18 wheeler truck full of TNT into military building and killing 1500 Yugoslavian soldiers (was that ever in the US news or TV ?) which is by all world standards a terrorist act.

Later on in the war I ended up as their POW and been tortured (water boarding was one of their favorite methods) numerous times...

The thing is, many of those responsible for atrocities in our civil war were put on trial.

To me ALL those US army soldiers involved in torture in Guantanamo or anywhere else did what they did knowing that it was illegal...

They decided to do it anyways, because they "sought" it as necessary to extract "valuable" information. Fine (not really, but for the sake of the argument).

Let's assume that information was EXTREMELY valuable.

Is that really a good reason to give interrogators and those who approved it immunity from the law ? The law is still broken, for the "good" of the country and our people (they say), but, still broken, nothing can ever change that...

If they had any guts and honor at all they would turn them self in and admit to everything, I know I would

Name one war without torture?

Its futile arguing who's in the right, or who's in the wrong here, as torture is an integral part of the handling of PRISONERS.

Whats more, we also have torture happening right here!

Tasers, pepper spray, beatings, sleep deprivation and so on. Right in our own home soil!

Is anyone getting all uppity about that? Does anyone care about the men and women on our home soil being tortured? Don't believe me? Look it up for yourself. So whilst your getting all uptight about whats happening in the middle east, remember right in your own backyard, prisoners are being tortured on a daily basis.

Originally posted by audas

Originally posted by Seekerof
reply to post by smallpeeps

 

You can paraphase me all you wish....not going to change my stance. Furthermore, I see you avoided those questions I asked...

At any rate, paraphrase this:

Have you served?
Have you engaged any aspect of terrorism or Islamic extremism?
For most of the military personnel in theatre, they would simply counter with "Bring it; the more of you scum removed from the face of the earth, the better off the vast majority of us will be."

Soldiers are soldiers because without doubt they are the most intellectually challenged of us all - it is an historical fact, the poorest, most ignorant and ill educated are the cannon fodder of history. The intelligent ones are those who send you there, or argue against it from the halls of academia.
Bravery and loyalty are not noble causes, they are not worthy, they are simply there to con you into doing the evil deeds of by men blinded by power.
Every lowly grunt always believes their cause is just, their nation the greatest, their purpose righteous, yet how can every war, every side, the tens of thousands of ideological positions all be the one truth. They can't.

So you are not better than anyone else becuase you are American, you are not wiser becuase you have been used by people more cunning than you, and you are not nobler because you have fallen victim to histories greatest disease and murdered for the just cause.

Do you wish the American journalist in Iran be tortured like this ? The two women in North Korea ? I doubt that - what you have no idea about (amongst the many) is that JUSTICE is UNIVERSAL -

I'm really, really glad that you are to smart to be in the foxhole with me.

You should be too.

This is what makes us no better than the terrorists...

Anyone who thinks this is justified...

Fight fire with fire, or fight fire with water.

Here is some information for the people who think it is funny how prisoners are being put in the"stress position" in those cargo transport planes that i posted some pictures of.

Stress positions

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/927a6f4b45c2.jpg[/atsimg]

The information on the wiki page is not much but look up the "stress positions" and learn what such a simple tactic can do to a human.

reply to post by Divinorumus


Most of these pictures are from Iraq what did these people do to you or your sons or daughters? Nothing this war was started on a lie we all know that. At this point around a million iraqies have been killed most of them civilians. Biggest terrorists in this world... israHELL followed by close second USA government. And what if they were torturing your sons or daughters what would you do? If you werent a terrorist before that you sure as hell would become one after that.

Originally posted by jaamaan
Here is some information for the people who think it is funny how prisoners are being put in the"stress position" in those cargo transport planes that i posted some pictures of.

Actually I flew those missions as that picture shows and you post here. First they are not put into a stress position. The plane is set up with plastic on the floor and cargo straps. This setup would also be used in an emergency evacuation of a lot of people. The reason why it is used here is because many of these “Persons Under Custody” are not happy to be transported around (I fully understand) and so out of protest they will piss and crap themselves to make as much trouble as they can. After the days mission a team comes into the plane in bio gear to fold up the soiled plastic.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by jaamaan
Here is some information for the people who think it is funny how prisoners are being put in the"stress position" in those cargo transport planes that i posted some pictures of.

Actually I flew those missions as that picture shows and you post here. First they are not put into a stress position. The plane is set up with plastic on the floor and cargo straps. This setup would also be used in an emergency evacuation of a lot of people. The reason why it is used here is because many of these “Persons Under Custody” are not happy to be transported around (I fully understand) and so out of protest they will piss and crap themselves to make as much trouble as they can. After the days mission a team comes into the plane in bio gear to fold up the soiled plastic.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/27d76ff4c5ed.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2bee8da78185.jpg[/atsimg]

Do you realy try to say these people are 'not" in the stress position here?
If so than i realy doubt you where ever in the army, let alone that you flew these transports.

[edit on 24-4-2009 by jaamaan]

Brutality is wrong period! With all the drugs available I am so sure they could get information out of these people without all the barbarism. Treating another human in this way is one sure way to screw up your Karma forever, regardless of what the justification is.

I know this will draw some heat, but this is how I feel: It doesn't matter what a person does, this is NEVER acceptable. It is simply one human trying to out do the other in horror.

Sad thing, every single day right in the US citizens are treated the same way, on US soil. Of course they are felons and most people could give a damn about them, this is daily course for the prisons of the state and federal government!

It doesn't matter whether terrorists, or felons....this sort of behavior only serves to deteriorate the nature of humanity!