US Torture (warning, graphic)

reply to post by smallpeeps


You can paraphase me all you wish....not going to change my stance. Furthermore, I see you avoided those questions I asked...

At any rate, paraphrase this:

Have you served?
Have you engaged any aspect of terrorism or Islamic extremism?
For most of the military personnel in theatre, they would simply counter with "Bring it; the more of you scum removed from the face of the earth, the better off the vast majority of us will be."

reply to post by Seekerof

Spare me the democratic notion and value of "innocent till proven guilty" garbage, kkthx. They are not entitled to our democratic constitutional notions and values being they are not U.S. citizens. They are however entitled to International provisions and protections.

Yup. And under International provisions and protections torture is wrong yeah?

I have few questions for you though: Does a militant extremist and/or terrorist consider you innocent till proven guilty before he/she pulls their vest cord and blow themselves up or has he/she already deemed you guilty by affiliation and thus are nothing to him but an infidel? Which is more humane, those who commit waterboarding or those who cut folks heads off because one is a Jew or because one is an infidel?

So you are 100% certain these men are guilty without any evidence being brought against them? None at all. Wow. Just wow.

The fact is that you cannot just assume that. And if you think torture is ok, then you're a terrorist yourself. Using fear and pain to manipulate people. There's no point comparing cutting off heads to waterboarding. The 'lesser of two evils' argument doesn't work, cause both are still evil.

If your child could be saved by the use of waterboarding, would you allow its use?

Nope. There's plenty of other methods they've been using for a long long time that have worked perfectly well.

Expose more pictures, please, because quite frankly, despite the flaming that will ensue, they simply will reinforce my stance on the use of waterboarding, etc.

Have you been hanging out with any UAE Sheikhs recently? So you seeing more innocent people being humiliated and abused makes you want to support more innocent people be humiliated and abused? That's pretty sadistic stuff right there man.

Originally posted by Seekerof
For most of the military personnel in theatre, they would simply counter with "Bring it; the more of you scum removed from the face of the earth, the better off the vast majority of us will be."

If you follow that logic than soon there will not be any body left to fight wars.
Who decides who is scumm, that is at the center of this problem.
I am glad it is not you any way

reply to post by Monteriano


YOu helped me segway into something I want to say...

The picture of the naked guy in the position of Jesus on the cross. Reminded me of something.

When you go into the halocaust museum, there is a video of survivors who said the Germans on xmas took some of the Jews and had them hang by their feet,doused with oil and lit on fire. All the others were made to watch and forced to sing christmas carols while they were burned.

Only one step away....

Some of the personnel involved in the torture in Iraq have maintained that they were acting under orders. There are currently claims that those orders came from very high up in the chain of command.

If proven in a court of law this is truly bad for Americans, especially captured American soldiers.

Torture may be an effective tool in theory... So if there are future charges brought against those who ordered it, it will be interesting to see how they will defend these actions.

I am embarrassed for these soldiers. Putting these men into sexual positions and taking pictures is just horrifying.

To knock a guy around for information is one thing. But this is embarrassing for those soldiers, and for myself.They just look like a bunch of perverts. And maybe they are. How infantile.

Originally posted by Seekerof
At any rate, paraphrase this:

Have you served?

You claim I must be a servant, to be a good American. You are wrong. There are more ways to serve America than to be like you, Seeker. You know that.

Have you engaged any aspect of terrorism or Islamic extremism?

Engaged, you mean blown holes in? No.

For most of the military personnel in theatre, they would simply counter with "Bring it; the more of you scum removed from the face of the earth, the better off the vast majority of us will be."

I agree, they are tough SOBs and I know these fighting people. I do not agree with your assessment of their attitude. I think you maybe flew jets or something? That's not real fighting and you know it.

Samuel_Fuller is my favorite war filmmaker. You ever see his movies? They involve how the fighting men of each country are actually in the end, the tools of their masters. He fought battles which you yourself, will never fight. And that imo is poverty for you.

Fuller's third film, The Steel Helmet, established him as a major force. One of the first films about the Korean War, he wrote it based on tales from returning Korean veterans and his own World War II experiences. The film was attacked by the Communist Party in the USA for being too "right wing" and by the American Legion for being "left wing". Fuller had a major argument with the US Army that provided stock footage for the film. When army officials objected to his American characters executing a prisoner of war, Fuller replied he had seen it done during his own military duty. A compromise was reached when the Lieutenant threatens the Sergeant with a court martial.

See this man, Sam, is now dead. He lived his life and was a soldier, but in the end he realized the futility of war. What's convenient for types like yourself, however, is that this generation dies off, and that enabled a whole new generation who can't then learn from Sam Fuller. Isn't it obvious that the military has a fetish for youth? Yet there's always old farts encouraging them into the meatgrinder. One could say, having been slaves to the meatgrinder, they worship it themselves. Without it, how shall we have hamburger?

reply to post by Seekerof



But that is the difference between "them" and "us"
The west supposedly has the moral high ground, but if America continues torturing people, then in the end they will become the very thing they are trying to destory.

reply to post by Seekerof



But that is the difference between "them" and "us"
The west supposedly has the moral high ground in this so called "War on Terror, but if America continues torturing people, then in the end they will become the very thing they are trying to destroy.

The logic.
This will serve as a warning to prevent terrorism happening agin.

Has capitol punishment stopped people murdering others in the US?
Has the prospect of going to jail prevented any crime?
does a fine prevent people from speeding?

Now what about the other argument, they kill our troops so they deserve it.
Who is in who's country?
before preaching 9/11, take a look a little further back to when Suddam was assisted into power by the US.
The arming of Iraqi troops fighting Iran.
The funding of insurgeants fighting russia in Afghanistan, how about we go further back to operation Ajax?

So maybe if oil wasn't the all important God to the people, and the control of the oil, there may have been no need for torture.

A very simple question.
What makes a person become a terrorist?

People left alone do not tend to lash out giving up their lives for the fun of it, they generally need a catalyst to do so.

reply to post by munkey66


Even more, what is a terrorist.
Some one who tortures innocent people ?

I think the US government actions in this case can be defined as terrorism, should the whole US government be tortured for their actions ?

GITMO Interrogation Video of 16 Y/O Detainee



There are children in these US prisons to like in this video.
Lets hope for this one the president does not want his testicles beeing crushed.

I have to admit when I opened this thread I had a feeling it was going to be a bunch of "Why can't we all get a long?" posts...

But then I saw the pictures.

Who the hell in their right mind prides themselves on these tactics? The part that was difficult for me to swallow was the thumbs-up and smiles. Why be proud of something that you believe MUST be done to extract information? Not that I agree w/ torture, I'd rather just see these people killed on the battlefield if they are really enemy combatants.

I would have no problem pulling the trigger on enemies not knowing if they are guilty or not, it's war. But capturing and torturing these people is a whole different ball game for me.

Originally posted by Nammu
Have you been hanging out with any UAE Sheikhs recently? So you seeing more innocent people being humiliated and abused makes you want to support more innocent people be humiliated and abused? That's pretty sadistic stuff right there man.

Twisted logic ftw.
In the same vain as you: You been hanging around OBL, the Taliban, or some Islamic extremists recently? So you seeing more innocent people being humiliated, abused, killed, maimed, tortured, and denied basic human rights makes you want to support more innocent people being humiliated, abused, killed, maimed, tortured, and denied basic human rights? That's pretty sadistic stuff right there man, especially when those that you defend and protect would cut your throat for free and without any equivocation, who would cut your head off and spit down your neck hole. I am a realist and believe wholeheartedly in eye for an eye, be thankful that what we are allegedly doing in the form of "torture" is not KILLING THEM being that is what they have, are, and continue to do to anyone who is considered an innocent till proven guilty infidel.

I am sure Nick Berg would agree with your stance on torture. I mean he was after all treated very fairly and with kid gloves. How terrible of us to act like such savages.

Originally posted by Kram09
But that is the difference between "them" and "us"

There is a difference indeed.
They torture and kill with no remorse and do so in the name of Allah while we allegedly "torture" them with physicians present in the name of national security. There is NO moral high ground in combat or in war.

The west supposedly has the moral high ground in this so called "War on Terror, but if America continues torturing people, then in the end they will become the very thing they are trying to destroy.

You did not get the Team Obama memos yet? This is not a "war on/against terror/terrorism;" it is "Overseas Contingency Operation." Furthermore, we will never become what we are attempting to deter, inhibit, and eradicate. Sun Tzu stated that one must know his enemy, as such, in the eyes of Islamic extremists and terrorists, your continued sensitivities to 'harsh interrogation methods' or "torture" are a sign of weakness and one that they laugh at and mock. You guys carry on. In doing so, be sure that you remember that their interpretation of 'right' and 'wrong' is totally different from our interpretation. By defending them, you do nothing but expose your neck even further to them. But hey, whatever.

[edit on 24-4-2009 by Seekerof]

reply to post by jaamaan


What you fail to understand is the difference of culture. These children from the time they are very young are taught and trained to be terrorists and killers. These Children, are as deadly as an adult, even more so because we pansy Americans fail to think that a child could possibly do such terrible things.

What do you presume to do to end this conflict? I am just seeking what you feel is the most valid way to solve these problems.

Originally posted by Seekerof
reply to post by smallpeeps

 

You can paraphase me all you wish....not going to change my stance. Furthermore, I see you avoided those questions I asked...

At any rate, paraphrase this:

Have you served?
Have you engaged any aspect of terrorism or Islamic extremism?
For most of the military personnel in theatre, they would simply counter with "Bring it; the more of you scum removed from the face of the earth, the better off the vast majority of us will be."

Soldiers are soldiers because without doubt they are the most intellectually challenged of us all - it is an historical fact, the poorest, most ignorant and ill educated are the cannon fodder of history. The intelligent ones are those who send you there, or argue against it from the halls of academia.
Bravery and loyalty are not noble causes, they are not worthy, they are simply there to con you into doing the evil deeds of by men blinded by power.
Every lowly grunt always believes their cause is just, their nation the greatest, their purpose righteous, yet how can every war, every side, the tens of thousands of ideological positions all be the one truth. They can't.

So you are not better than anyone else becuase you are American, you are not wiser becuase you have been used by people more cunning than you, and you are not nobler because you have fallen victim to histories greatest disease and murdered for the just cause.

Do you wish the American journalist in Iran be tortured like this ? The two women in North Korea ? I doubt that - what you have no idea about (amongst the many) is that JUSTICE is UNIVERSAL -

Originally posted by Seekerof

You been hanging around OBL, the Taliban, or some Islamic extremists recently?

No siree! The sheikh comment was because of this story and the fact that you said you wanted to see more pictures of people being humiliated and tortured cause it would make you support it more made me think of that story.

So you seeing more innocent people being humiliated, abused, killed, maimed, tortured, and denied basic human rights makes you want to support more innocent people being humiliated, abused, killed, maimed, tortured, and denied basic human rights?

Nope. I'm all up for human rights. Hence the fact my entire argument has been about a fair trials and against torture. I thought that was apparent.

especially when those that you defend and protect would cut your throat for free and without any equivocation, who would cut your head off and spit down your neck hole.

Well if that's the case, why have so many G'tmo detainees, including my fellow countrymen, been held for years with no trial, tortured and then released with no charge? If they cut anyones throat wouldn't there be evidence for this?

I am a realist and believe wholeheartedly in eye for an eye, be thankful that what we are allegedly doing in the form of "torture" is not KILLING THEM being that is what they have, are, and continue to do to anyone who is considered an innocent till proven guilty infidel.

Haha. An eye for an eye. So they hurt you, so you hurt them equally, so they hurt you equally, so you hurt them and on and on till we all die.

Again, you are assuming that they have been proven guilty. That's not the case. You appear to fear THEM greatly and think that THEY are out to get you. But the truth is that majority of THEM have been released without charge as innocent people. So your government just tortured innocent people. You can't deny the reality of this.

No one has the right to go to a different country, hoodwink someone random from the street, take them to a different country, hold them without access to a fair trial and then torture them. It's not protecting anyone, especially not US citizens.

reply to post by audas



Historically your are correct. Present day you are incorrect. Your assumption that our armed forces are a bunch of retarded, poverty stricken, high school drop outs is very insulting.