Is this America's 1989?

In 1989, the Soviet Union began to collapse. In 2009, we are seeming the same thing in America.

Obama = Lincoln? More like Obama = Gorbachev? He seems like he's GETTING READY for the collapse of the United States.

I can't see another president after him in the future.

I actually see Obama as an anti-Gorbachev. Gorby brought the U.S.S.R. out of socialism, poverty and bread lines, and Obama is bringing the U.S. into socialism, poverty and bread lines.

reply to post by Donnie Darko

I've agreed with a lot of your posts in the past Donnie Darko, though did not say so in the thread(s).

I don't think the U.S.A. is going to collapse, but it is an interesting scenario. The USSR collapsed trying to convert to democracy, will the USA collapse converting to socialism? It would be incredibly ironic, and it is possible if you stretch the imagination far enough.

Originally posted by Ferris.Bueller.II
I actually see Obama as an anti-Gorbachev. Gorby brought the U.S.S.R. out of socialism, poverty and bread lines, and Obama is bringing the U.S. into socialism, poverty and bread lines.

Actually Russia is much poorer now than it was then. Not that I support Soviet Communism by any means of course.

Originally posted by dragonking76

I've agreed with a lot of your posts in the past Donnie Darko, though did not say so in the thread(s).

I don't think the U.S.A. is going to collapse, but it is an interesting scenario. The USSR collapsed trying to convert to democracy, will the USA collapse converting to socialism? It would be incredibly ironic, and it is possible if you stretch the imagination far enough.

Even to me, the idea of the USA collapsing in my lifetime is unthinkable - but so was the collapse of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s!

reply to post by Donnie Darko





I would have to say this in 1929 and 1/2. This will be longer than the 70's, 80's and 90's recession. Lating longer than 16 months.

This is not your typical business cycle. Not with all the bailouts and global financial crisis.

Were looking at about another 4 years. If Obama's gambling casino type plan doesnt work we are all doomed to the Greatest Depression.

This thing is global. The IMF will be no help either. Soon we'll have one large Nationalized bad bank.

Originally posted by wonderworld
reply to post by Donnie Darko

 

I would have to say this in 1929 and 1/2. This will be longer than the 70's, 80's and 90's recession. Lating longer than 16 months.

This is not your typical business cycle. Not with all the bailouts and global financial crisis.

Were looking at about another 4 years. If Obama's gambling casino type plan doesnt work we are all doomed to the Greatest Depression.

This thing is global. The IMF will be no help either. Soon we'll have one large Nationalized bad bank.

I think the Material Girl/Boy days of the 1980s and 1990s are over. Obama wants a socialist state. either way, we won't have as much money anymore, but we can still have freedom if we say "no" to Globalism.

The american people will wake up sooner or later. It doesn't matter which political system is in place, "The people will win through with their righteous might!" I think this is just another buisness cycle that can change over night. They tried this in the 70's with the oil crisis, what makes you think they aren't testing now, for a global meltdown. The people who pull the strings have all control here. Once they make enough money, they will make it right again. This will not be much longer, 2 years at the most.

reply to post by Donnie Darko


I think I will fight to keep the materialistic ways alive. I work hard to get what I have, I'm not going to sit here and pay for the kids who slept through school. It is their fault they didn't have ambition to get out and do something, so they will have to settle for what they have.

reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II


The problem with socialism is that people like Thatcher, and the other buffoons you follow, are bold face lying to you about what socialism is.

Russia neither came out of socialism, nor is Obama sending America into socialism.

Your second problem is you believe what the media tells you. Both these groups of buffoons have agendas, and will do anything to maintain their power, socialism is a direct threat to them. So duh! They are not going to tell you the truth.

Russia never was socialist...
www.worldsocialism.org...

And unless Obama does away with the private ownership of capital and gives the 'means of production' to the people then it's not socialism. From what I can see 'the state' is still alive and well, and the government is increasing it's power by exploiting faults in the economic system. BTW that called nationalism, a system completely different than socialism.

I wish people would learn what these terms really mean before they parrot their MSM political mouthpieces, and look silly by throwing terms around they obviously don't understand.

You have to realize the media is nothing but sensationalism designed to create an emotional reaction as apposed to a intellectual one. You will never understand politics by listening to the MSM. This alone should wake people up to the fact that they've been lied to by those they have trusted to bring them the truth.

Just open up to the possibility that what you perceive as truth is in fact a grand illusion to keep you as a slave to an economic system of wealth for the few and poverty for the many.

[edit on 13-4-2009 by CityIndian]

Originally posted by USamf
reply to post by Donnie Darko

 

I think I will fight to keep the materialistic ways alive. I work hard to get what I have, I'm not going to sit here and pay for the kids who slept through school. It is their fault they didn't have ambition to get out and do something, so they will have to settle for what they have.

Best thread of 2009 right here and I will be contributing to it because this subject has been much on my mind. If possible, let's make it the best thread of 2010 and 2011 also.

Read Claire Sterling's book "Thieves' World" for a detailed account of how the Russian rubles (Russian ruble and the gold ruble, I didn't know there are two types until I read her book) were manipulated by world criminals in 1990-1993. There is also a post out there from J. Orlin Grabbe (a favorite of mine, rip) where he clarifies some of her information and if you have read either of these authors already you won't need convincing.

The only question to gameplay at this point is, even if they arrest Paulson and a few hundred others, how can we undo the damage economically?

This plane is on approach and the landing gear may or may not be deployed before zero altitude is reached. Also we need to get the cabin crew to stop serving beverages and get those tray tables stowed.

Seriously though, how about that White House garden plot? I understand Russians saved themselves from starvation with plots just like those. Well done Mrs. Obama! Seriously, thanks for growing it organically too! Tell Monsanto and the gang to stuff it up their genetically modified hole.


[edit on 14-4-2009 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by smallpeeps
Best thread of 2009 right here and I will be contributing to it because this subject has been much on my mind. If possible, let's make it the best thread of 2010 and 2011 also.

Read Clarice Sterling's book "Thieves' World" for a detailed account of how the Russian rubles (Russian ruble and the gold ruble, I didn't know there are two types until I read her book) were manipulated by world criminals in 1990-1993. There is also a post out there from J. Orlin Grabbe (a favorite of mine, rip) where he clarifies some of her information and if you have read either of these authors already you won't need convincing.

The only question to gameplay at this point is, even if they arrest Paulson and a few hundred others, how can we undo the damage economically?

This plane is on approach and the landing gear may or may not be deployed before zero altitude is reached. Also we need to get the cabin crew to stop serving beverages and get those tray tables stowed.

Seriously though, how about that White House garden plot? I understand Russians saved themselves from starvation with plots just like those. Well done Mrs. Obama! Seriously, thanks for growing it organically too! Tell Monsanto and the gang to stuff it up their genetically modified hole.

2010 could be our 1990, and 2011 our 1991.

1990 and 1991 were pretty much continuations of what began in 1989.

Originally posted by Donnie Darko1990 and 1991 were pretty much continuations of what began in 1989.

I agree completely.

From Ms. Sterling's book I gleaned the following data regarding Gorbachev:

Gorbachev started the Soviet-wide Sixth Department in 1988 to fight organized crime and it collapsed three years later in 1991. Also this was the year Soviet Premier Valentin Pavlov had suddenly withdrawn all 50 and 100 ruble notes from circulation which caused the criminals (or allowed them) to wage war on the ruble since they had to dump their high-denom rubles outside the country in a hurry.

In the Winter of 1991 the crime bosses met with Gorbachev where he offered them a 500-day plan for conversion to a free market. Within three years pretty much anything of value had been pulled up and sold off. The people who'd saved rubles in their mattresses fared poorly but cash-masters and launderers did well. These events unified global crime.

One could then ask the next question, if Obama is like Gorbachev, then one would imagine a modern Yeltsin to be some uppity governor of a huge US State who wrestles with the prez and argues for privatization and then leaves the country flat busted a few years later. Hmmm...


[edit on 14-4-2009 by smallpeeps]

reply to post by Donnie Darko
If Obama's Lincoln and Michelle is Mary Todd then they're missing a few boys aren't they. Last time I looked Lincoln was an almost constantly dour looking white guy. Not so much Obama.

Does the USA have the kind of forces that pulled the Soviet Union apart? Soviet Union after all was a collection of various nationalities, some of which were forcibly annexed into the Soviet Union, such as the Baltic countries. What I see is that people are trying to get into the USA, not out of it.

Also, there is certainly an economic crisis, but this is more about the kind of an economic ideology that has been around since the 1980's... Which I see as being too greedy and too capitalistic. This is not a question of socialism, this is a question of mixed economy. I believe that mixed economy is the social system that functions best. It is no Marx that Obama is worshipping, it is John Maynard Keynes.

Of course you can see this as a move towards socialism, I see it more as a balancing act. But this is not a wild transition like Russia going from socialism straight into capitalism. This is just going from the right extreme of economic policy into the center.

I don't think the USA will collapse. It seems a lot more legitimate state than something like the Soviet Union. What you need to do is to balance the economy. Focus more on public good instead of individual greed.

Originally posted by wonderworld
reply to post by Donnie Darko

 

This is not your typical business cycle. Not with all the bailouts and global financial crisis.

The response from the PTB was fairly quick and very Keynesian. That makes me think that this recession probably will not last long. Last time we had a recession in my country they had a monetarian response and it was a complete disaster.

The bailout should work. Of course they should have distributed the money to everyone, not just to bankers. It would have ended up in bank accounts anyhow! So they should have cycled the money through poor people, who in my mind would have spent it in a more economically stimulating way anyhow.

Or, if this stimulus doesn't work, then my economic thinking is flawed. On the other hand, who cares, I am not an economist...

Russia is a very different country from the US and comparisons are difficult.

A huge land mass containing virtually dozens of submerged 'countries' and cultures. Fortunate to have the the largest oil resource. Despite that a woefully small economy considering it's size. A GDP a fraction of the US, less than much smaller European countries. The population is half that of the US, and shrinks about 3/4 of a million every year.

There was a brief flirtation with a representative democracy in the 90s, but the KGB, military and Mafiya overlords are still in firm control despite the cosmetic change in the political system.

The Russians have the knowledge base and resource potential to be a true competitor, but they remain on an economic plane of a Third World country.

A people victimized by leadership corruption, inefficiency, excessive expansionism. Much of their maneuvering on the world stage is for show.

Many irreconcilable problems unless radical changes happen from the top down. No sign of that coming. With oil prices depressed, confidence down, Russia is experiencing a more severe contraction from the economic turmoil than any major player.


Mike

Originally posted by mmiichael


Russia is a very different country from the US and comparisons are difficult.

true to a degree, but America is also a vast country that encompasses many different cultures.

i don't think the US government will last forever and ever, that's for sure.

I agree we revolt against any New World Order or Globalization.

A socialist state seems a few steps away from a communist state.

I am prepared though. I think we all should be.

I'm afraid the money and the Freedom are tied together.

Originally posted by mmiichael
A huge land mass containing virtually dozens of submerged 'countries' and cultures. Fortunate to have the the largest oil resource.

What's weird is that their collapse as a nation happened shortly after they reached peak oil production. Not sure what it means, but it would have seemed that they'd be doing better. The book I mentioned does detail a lot of the crime like you are mentioning.

A people victimized by leadership corruption, inefficiency, excessive expansionism. Much of their maneuvering on the world stage is for show.

Many irreconcilable problems unless radical changes happen from the top down. No sign of that coming. With oil prices depressed, confidence down, Russia is experiencing a more severe contraction from the economic turmoil than any major player.

It's interesting to analyze and I agree in many respects. I've not been there, but I've been reading a lot about the Afghan War and then the collapse. From what I can grasp, Russian fighters got sent to fight Osama's soldiers only to have their choppers get 'stung', and after 15,000 or so are dead and many more wounded, they cancel the war, and then go home to a country who actually had no idea there was a war going on! Then shortly after these soldiers get home, their nation collapses due to organized crime taking over the whole thing. It's almost like the Russian and USSR countries got bushwhacked when they were young at the turn of the 20th century and they lost their King (who wasn't working hard enough to free them anyway) and then immediately here come the Bolsheviks with a supremely organized global plan of conquest which ends up feeding millions of Soviet citizens into gulags and graves. Ouch.

Well, as just one American I am amazed by their endurance as a collective people. I have an extreme dislike for oppressive regimes like the communist party (Yuri Bezmenoff is one of my favorite defectors) however the most repressive of States can produce the most tempered and strong heroes like Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. We would need similar heroes if the US were to approach anything like what Russians have gone through.