White House Factsheet - Cuba

Capitalism leads to slavery and loss of human rights..

It may not be the same slavery as black people working
on coffee plants, but it is slavery nonetheless. I rather get
killed in a gulag than working all my life without getting
any further in life, without getting the chance to develop
as a human being.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse


It has not helped the people, it has helped the dictatorship.

You can bitch and whine all you want about the evil communist dictatorship.

Meanwhile, I'm going to be enjoying fine Cuban cigars while at the same time bolstering trade and therefore the economies of both Cuba and the U.S.A.

You honestly think, just because you have a problem with a country's government, that we should just cut them off, all the while the rest of the world benefits from Cuban exports? Our embargo of Cuba represents nothing more than silly cold-war era thinking that's more than 2 decades past its due.

Perhaps Raul (and maybe even the senile Castro) is actually inclined to introduce democratic reforms and would be willing to make progress in that respect, and the only problem is that America has been oblivious to it. With an embargo and travel restriction from the US in place, Cuba had no incentive to proceed with change - only to have the Bush administration snicker and call them desperate, and to claim that the embargo works.

Now that the way to dialogue is paved, Cuba is aware of actual incentives - political and economic - to easing its authoritarian rule and introducing reforms. It should be a chess match approach - Obama makes the first move by proposing to lift travel ban, and Raul must now make his move to show that he is willing to cooperate.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
It has not helped the people, it has helped the dictatorship.

I've been to Cuba several times. Seen the poverty stricken area's that surround the hotels and beaches. All the Cuban's I have met in town have been more than receptive and kind.

I stay at all inclusive resorts, best I can afford. One thing I know for sure, the hotel staff (bar tenders, maids, entertainers, and even ground staff) make more money than most other Cuban's predominantly because of the tips. Yes, they tip out, and the government probably gets a huge slice, but the Convertible peso passes from Our Canadian Hands, into the Cuban peoples hands none the less.

Are you really telling me that all those people on the hotel sites, would be better off if they didn't have the tourists coming in, pumping money into the hotel, into their pockets, and into the surrounding region's pockets?

Pretty much every family I know of that has gone to Cuba bring tons of goods to give away to both hotel staff and the surrounding area's and towns.

Yes the majority of the money goes to the government, but there is still a hell of a lot of it staying with the locals.

Originally posted by maloy
Now that the way to dialogue is paved, Cuba is aware of actual incentives - political and economic - to easing its authoritarian rule and introducing reforms. It should be a chess match approach - Obama makes the first move by proposing to lift travel ban, and Raul must now make his move to show that he is willing to cooperate.

You nailed it. Right on the head.

This is not China. This is not a nation that has its own resources, and it require the actual import of much of what it needs.

They will likely be MUCH more open to playing ball with us that China was/is.

I could not be happier that we are easing relations with Cuba. It is one of the best foreign policies we will have made in a long time. Why should we have such a horrible relationship with a neighbor? Why give enemies of the US a place to hide right next door? This will help ease tensions with Venezuela and Chavez. Blood is not necessary to win. There can be multiple winners too.

"For when the One Great Scorer comes, / To write against your name, / He marks - not that you won or lost - / But how you played the Game." - Grantland Rice

Winning isn't the only thing; it's everything. —Vince Lombardi

Everyones a winner.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Where were you born, and where did you live all of your life?

Yugoslavia. Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia till 16-17 years ago...

As you can see we NEVER called it Communist Republic, why would you ?

Yep, we had communist party as the only one in the country which I never participated in, I supported religious people and I had a job in private sector, imagine that (look, Chinese are doing it now, LOL)

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Have you experienced Communism and seen what it does?

No. Nobody ever did. I seen what people can do in the name of the IDEA of communism, but I seen things, horrible things, people do in the name of other ideas and dogmas (religion comes to mind) ...

Should I really say the cheesy phrase here: Ideas do not kill people, people kill people ???

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Your response is the same response that every Communist/Marxist/Revolutionary states to try to claim their "perfect Permanent Revolution" has never existed.

No, as a Free Thinker I'm objective about it, I'm not defending it, but rather demystifying it for those who are conditioned to believe that it's reincarnation of the Devil himself.

Here is the kicker:

Even though communism is a nice concept/idea I do realize that attempts to put it partially in practice (so called "pure" socialism) had various success through out the world and I realize that Cuban flavor was one of the worst ones (thanks to Castro and his dumb arse "interpretation" of communism and his paranoia due to the USA isolation and military "interest" of formal Soviet Union) .

But I also see that human factor is a crucial element of the success. I see that many are not ready to be "unplugged from the Matrix" of the todays world of greed and coldness toward other peoples problems...

One of the elements nobody likes to talk about is tremendous effort of the capitalist countries governments (in money and time) to eliminate and isolate socialism and see to it that it FAILS.

The irony of the situation is if they do not infiltrate elements of socialism into their idea of capitalism they will fail too, because it's subjects are more then ever AWARE of what is really going on and because treating them better is right thing to do

Originally posted by Wehali
Capitalism leads to slavery and loss of human rights..

It may not be the same slavery as black people working
on coffee plants, but it is slavery nonetheless. I rather get
killed in a gulag than working all my life without getting
any further in life, without getting the chance to develop
as a human being.

That is what Communism does....

Obviously you have no experience in Communism, in Communism the individual doesn't exist, individuality is destroyed in Communism, only through Capitalism can an individual develop as a human being.

Capitalism does not lead to slavery, the only thing leading to slavery are those people in power that want to turn the Republic into True Socialism, or worse Communism.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Geez you sound like a broken record rattling on about the "traumas of Communism". The tone of your posts sound eerily reminiscent of propaganda leaflets dropped over South Vietnam during the 1960's.

It is a sad day when Americans, Europeans, and others living abroad do not want to believe what Cubans living outside of the island have to tell them about Cuba...

Oh you mean all those rich, upper-class Cubans who owned coffee and cigar plantations and exploited the slave-like masses during the Batista regime and never of course bothered to speak up against the atrocities committed by Fulgencio because they got filthy-rich?
Who then scurried away to Miami after the revolution to sit on their fat, capitalist asses and broadcast propaganda messages into Havana via "Radio Marti"?

Oh those Cubans. Those extremely, fanatically Communist-hating Cubans who still want Castro assassinated?

Yes why don't we listen to such prejudiced & biased people?

They're opinions must be considered.

[edit on 14/4/09 by The Godfather of Conspira]

And before you cast aspersions upon cuba, lets look at the history here. Cuba tries claiming independence from spain, cant manage to expel the spanish...asks the US for help. The US comes to the rescue...kicks out spain...then tries to take over. The cubans force them out, though the americans retain guantanamo, and since then the US keeps the Cubans under severe embargos, lobby constantly against them in the UN and impose pressures on other nations to limit all trade with Cuba, and every so often riddle cuba with assaults, assassination attempts, and attempted coups.

As an above poster stated, the US actively tries to undermine EVERY SINGLE country that chooses socialism as its method, through embargos, industrial espionage, guerrilla insurections, etc, all to keep the world from recognizing that there is any viable alternative to capitalism. It is no surprise after all of this that the Cubans suffer a depressed economy.

Lastly, capitalism DOES make slaves...it makes debt slaves of the majority. In america tax freedom day is may 26 this year i believe....that means that most americans work 42% of the year, JUST to pay off taxes to uncle sam. 42% of our income goes to income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, etc. FYI, the taxes mid evil serfs paid was much less than that, and the revolutionary war was declared over a fraction of that. Social mobility in the US is crawling to a stop, as household debt is now higher than the GDP of the country, and the gap between the rich and poor is huge and growing. Most americans work their whole lives for another person, busting tail to make ends meet, pay off debt, keep bills payed, and hopeless to get ahead. THIS is the slavery of which he speaks.....and its an insidious, all pervasive, and powerful one. One which most people cant even see due to their indoctrination, much less break free from. At least in dictatorships most people can SEE the chains that bind them.

Originally posted by 5thElement


Yugoslavia. Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia till 16-17 years ago...

As you can see we NEVER called it Communist Republic, why would you ?

Yep, we had communist party as the only one in the country which I never participated in, I supported religious people and I had a job in private sector, imagine that (look, Chinese are doing it now, LOL)

There are many Communist regimes which give themselves different names. The Chinese Communist PArty call themselves Socialists, and every 'revolutionary" who was a Marxist, or any of the other forms of Communism saw themselves as Socialists.

There is some form of Capitalism in China because Communists have seen that wihtout some form of Capitalism their ideology, and power dies, this doesn't make them any less Communists/True Socialists.

Originally posted by 5thElement
No. Nobody ever did. I seen what people can do in the name of the IDEA of communism, but I seen things, horrible things, people do in the name of other ideas and dogmas (religion comes to mind) ...

Should I really say the cheesy phrase here: Ideas do not kill people, people kill people ???

Yes, every country which had some form of Communism was in fact that, a Communist regime.

Ideas can kill people, more so an idea such as Communism in which individuality is destroyed for the good of the many.

Originally posted by 5thElement
No, as a Free Thinker I'm objective about it, I'm not defending it, but rather demystifying it for those who are conditioned to believe that it's reincarnation of the Devil himself.

If you are, and you seem to agree with it, a Communist then you are not a free thinker, you are letting the Party dictate what you should do.

Under the Communist dogma there is no "free thinking" since as i said individuality is destroyed, so you don't even understand the very system that destroyed your country.

Originally posted by 5thElement
Here is the kicker:

Even though communism is a nice concept/idea I do realize that attempts to put it partially in practice (so called "pure" socialism) had various success through out the world and I realize that Cuban flavor was one of the worst ones (thanks to Castro and his dumb arse "interpretation" of communism and his paranoia due to the USA isolation and military "interest" of formal Soviet Union) .

But I also see that human factor is a crucial element of the success. I see that many are not ready to be "unplugged from the Matrix" of the todays world of greed and coldness toward other peoples problems...

One of the elements nobody likes to talk about is tremendous effort of the capitalist countries governments (in money and time) to eliminate and isolate socialism and see to it that it FAILS.

The irony of the situation is if they do not infiltrate elements of socialism into their idea of capitalism they will fail too, because it's subjects are more then ever AWARE of what is really going on and because treating them better is right thing to do

Communism is never, and will never be a good idea, or concept, again since it seeks to destroy the individual for the good of the state, which claims to represent the people, but since individuality is not allowed in Communism, hence the Communist state never truly represents the people.

In fact we can say the oposite to what you said.

Communism has always tried to be expanded around the world, and not by hugs and roses, but by bullets, oppression, and death.

The United States, and some other countries originally set out to stop this expansion, because sooner or later the people in power in Communist countries would try, and have infiltrated every country in the world to turn them into a Communist regime.

Capitalism was doing fine until Socialist ideals were implemented such as Federalizing banks, and now nationalizing them claiming it would solve the problem this same idea created in the first place.

Every form of Communism was bad for the people, even in your country, if you are now trying to change the history of your own country you are doing a diservice to all the people in your country who were also murdered, and or imprisoned because of their "individualist ideals"...



[edit on 14-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by drwizardphd

You can bitch and whine all you want about the evil communist dictatorship.

Meanwhile, I'm going to be enjoying fine Cuban cigars while at the same time bolstering trade and therefore the economies of both Cuba and the U.S.A.

You honestly think, just because you have a problem with a country's government, that we should just cut them off, all the while the rest of the world benefits from Cuban exports? Our embargo of Cuba represents nothing more than silly cold-war era thinking that's more than 2 decades past its due.

You can bitch and whine all you want about your own reasons to want to freely travel to a dictatorial regime, but at the end, after knowing the truth of that country you are showing to be nothing more than an ignorant excuse of a man............

Those Cuban cigars are being harvested by 11 or 12 years old children who are forced into hard labour by the dictatorial regime.

Knowing this fact makes you an accomplice because you don't care how you get to enjoy the fruits of Cuba, you just want to enjoy them....





[edit on 14-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by pexx421
And before you cast aspersions upon cuba, lets look at the history here. Cuba tries claiming independence from spain, cant manage to expel the spanish...asks the US for help. The US comes to the rescue...kicks out spain...then tries to take over. The cubans force them out, though the americans retain guantanamo, and since then the US keeps the Cubans under severe embargos, lobby constantly against them in the UN and impose pressures on other nations to limit all trade with Cuba, and every so often riddle cuba with assaults, assassination attempts, and attempted coups.

Wrong, but nice try to change the history of the world...

Cuba had been fighting for long against Spain for it's independence. In fact there were three liberation wars in Cuba. The first one was The Ten Years War (1868-1878), the second one was The Little War (1879-1890) and the last three months of the war became the Spanish-American War.

It was after the Ten Year War that private possession of firearms by citizens was banned, and which is the reason why the Manbises fought at first mainly with machetes, until with enough raids, and with aid from Florida, and some other countries did the Cuban fighters get enough firearms and soldiers to fight back.

So, the Cuban people were fighting for independence long before the U.S. got involved...

Also, several ships which were send from other countries, and from the U.S. were also at first stopped by the U.S. Navy.

As an example, two of the three ships, the Lagonda, the Almadis and the Baracoa, which were sent from Florida to Cuba with firearms, and soldiers on December 25th 1895 were seized by the U.S. in January, so at first the U.S. was not in favor of the Cuban war for independence.

To make the history short...

Gerardo Machado y Morales, who was a general in the Cuban War for independence, was a member of the "Liberal Party Administration" and as President of Cuba (1925–1933) wanted to rid Cuba on the reliance of sugar exportation, and of U.S. influence.

Machado was one of the first Cuban president to turn the country from one of the riches, into one of the poorest nations, and turned against All Cubans, and it was with the help of the U.S. that he was toppled.

In 1933 Fulgencio Batista won the popular vote, and in case you didn't know he was endorsed by the Cuban Communist Party.

Under Batista the end of the electoral process occurred, and began the influence of the military in the government. He wasn't installed by the U.S. even thou at first the U.S. favored him, he was in fact put in power by the Cuban people.

Then came Fidel Castro, who made things worse, and again by lying to the people.

Even though Batista was a dictatorial ruler, most Cubans before the "Revolucion" were still making enough money, and almost noone went hungry.

Even during Batista Cuba was still known as the jewel of Latin America, every household had a tv, which still wasn't possible in the U.S.

I am not endorsing Batista in the least, but he was endorsed by the Communist Party in Cuba just like Fidel Castro.

In short, it was because of Liberals,and Communists that Cuba has gone from one dictatorship to another. All in the name of the "working people".

Originally posted by pexx421
As an above poster stated, the US actively tries to undermine EVERY SINGLE country that chooses socialism as its method, through embargos, industrial espionage, guerrilla insurections, etc, all to keep the world from recognizing that there is any viable alternative to capitalism. It is no surprise after all of this that the Cubans suffer a depressed economy.

Russia, China, Cuba, and several other countries were the first ones to try to expand their Permanent Revolution around the world, which is why the United States, and some other countries intervened..

In case you didn't know, the CUban regime has sent Cuban soldiers to other countries to fight for "La Revolucion", and I know this because some of my uncles were sent abroad to fight in these wars, and skirmishes.

Originally posted by pexx421
Lastly, capitalism DOES make slaves...
...................
Most americans work their whole lives for another person, busting tail to make ends meet, pay off debt, keep bills payed, and hopeless to get ahead. THIS is the slavery of which he speaks.....and its an insidious, all pervasive, and powerful one. One which most people cant even see due to their indoctrination, much less break free from. At least in dictatorships most people can SEE the chains that bind them.

Wrong, it has been because of the implementation of Socialist programs that people in the United States have been slowly turned into slaves.

The Federal Reserve was/is a Socialist program implemented by Democrat Woodrow Wilson in 1913 when he signed into law the Federal Reserve Act.

Democrat Franklin Delano Roosevelt outlawed the possession of gold by all Americans in 1933, and put us into a paper currency which further put us into debt, and into a monetary system that sooner or later could not sustain itself.

Thanks to Democrat Bill Clinton, who signed the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act in 1999, the safeguards that would have avoided another depression were repealled, and allowed for bankers, and other institutions to lend loans to Americans who couldn't pay these loans, puting us further into a Recession, and a depression in the future.

As of late the Republican Party hasn't done much, and in fact many Republicans signed in favor of Socialist bills such as H.R. 1388.

The Republic has been slowly dismantled, and turned into something it was never meant to be.

Now under the current administration we seem to be headed towards becoming either a National Socialist state, or worse, a Communist Nation.


[edit on 14-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Oh, and about riddling a country with coups, assassination attemps, ect?...

How many spies from the Cuban Communist dictatorship have we found in the U.S., and many of them in powerful government offices?...

It was also a German filmmaker who uncovered the following.

Did Castro Kill Kennedy?
By Michael Scott Moore in Berlin

A new documentary slated to run on German TV this Friday uncovers new evidence that Lee Harvey Oswald murdered President Kennedy on behalf of the regime of Cuban dictator Fidel Castro. The film also claims that the KGB recommended Oswald to Havana as the man for the job.

A documentary to air later this week on German public television provides what its producers believe is the strongest evidence yet linking the regime of Fidel Castro to the assassination of John F. Kennedy. It also provides a motive -- sources in the film claim that Cuban intelligence agents contracted Lee Harvey Oswald, a willing drifter, to kill the president in retaliation for several foiled assassination attempts plotted by JFK's brother, then-attorney general Robert Kennedy, against Castro.

"For me, the essence of the assassination has been explained," German filmmaker Wilfried Huismann said after a preview in Berlin on Wednesday of his new documentary on Kennedy's murder, "Rendezvous With Death." His movie may not be the alpha and the omega of JFK scholarship, he says, but at least he can grasp the "political context" of Kennedy's sudden death.

www.spiegel.de...


The regime of Cuba, just like every other regime, had been making it's own coup attempts, and assassination attempts, and one was a success.



[edit on 14-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

You can bitch and whine all you want

As can you EU, but judging from the members remarks within this thread, it appears that holding on tightly to old prejudices has left you very much on your own. There is a long overdue reconciliation with Cuba just around the corner regardless of how you feel. It kind of seems like a waste of energy to resist the inevitable.

Lighten up dude! Be happy!

IRM

Originally posted by InfaRedMan
As can you EU, but judging from the members remarks within this thread, it appears that holding on tightly to old prejudices has left you very much on your own. There is a long overdue reconciliation with Cuba just around the corner regardless of how you feel. It kind of seems like a waste of energy to resist the inevitable.

Lighten up dude! Be happy!

IRM

Me? no...read my responses. I clearly stated that if this is how it is being said in Spanish circles, then it will benefit Cubans, but if it is an open policy for Americans to travel to the island just as tourists this will only benefit the Communist dictatorial regime.

BTW, about your claims on any prejudice of mine keeping me on my own, the Spartans were also pretty much on their own when the Persian empire, which subjugated most of the known world back then, demanded for the Spartans to bow down.

Similarly true Socialists/Communists circles have been working on making Capitalism a scape-goa,t and making people like yourself believe it is an evil thing, the many are bowing down to the mega rich few who will use Socialism trying to get the approval of the people until it is too late. But even then there are some of us who see what is happening in the world, and like the Spartans, we will stand for what is right.

The question is, in which side will you stand?




[edit on 14-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Communism has always tried to be expanded around the world, and not by hugs and roses, but by bullets, oppression, and death.

So did Capitalism, and in fact, it was quite successful. There are more Autocratic Capitalist governments in the world, then there are communist. How do you explain the atrocities of Capitalism around the world, if communism was the greatest evil?

The United States, and some other countries originally set out to stop this expansion, because sooner or later the people in power in Communist countries would try, and have infiltrated every country in the world to turn them into a Communist regime.

Your half right. The US and other Capitalist Nations set out to rid the world of Communism because it was a competing social order. It turned the focus from capital accumulation by the people on the top, to capital distribution to the people in the middle and the bottom. It was the threat of turning the capital accumulation process on its head that concerned Capitalist nations.

Capitalism was doing fine until Socialist ideals were implemented such as Federalizing banks, and now nationalizing them claiming it would solve the problem this same idea created in the first place.

Oh right, its best if we just let the "free market" regulate itself, right? Because that worked out so well for the common man in the US in 1890, right? How did children like their 10 hour work days in unsafe work conditions?

Every form of Communism was bad for the people, even in your country, if you are now trying to change the history of your own country you are doing a diservice to all the people in your country who were also murdered, and or imprisoned because of their "individualist ideals"...

Living in Canada provides me the unique experience of having a strong social safety net in case the "free market" lets me slip through the cracks. Our system is in jeopardy because of free marketeers trying to turn a social system into a private enterprise. When our health care system goes private, more Canadians will suffer for the benefit of a very few.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Obviously you have no experience in Communism, in Communism the individual doesn't exist, individuality is destroyed in Communism, only through Capitalism can an individual develop as a human being.

Socialism is a response to deep running social injustices in a society. When the abuses of wealth and power take too much from the people, the people demand democratic and social acknowledgment. Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, they are Economic identities, not governmental forces. Many of the past Communistic governments were autocratic and lacked any democratic input, violating the revolutions ideals.

It is democracy that allows individual development, not Capitalism.

Capitalism does not lead to slavery, the only thing leading to slavery are those people in power that want to turn the Republic into True Socialism, or worse Communism.

Tell that to the 7 year old worker from 1890 who worked a 10 hour day in a factory under horrendous conditions to pay off his families debt to the factory owner. What, did you not know child labour, the 8 hour work day, work-place safety, paid vacation, sick leave, and a host of other great democratic advances were non-existent in the true days of Capital Accumulation in the US? That's right! It was because of democratic and social agitation that such rights, and more, were won for the workers. Kind of sounds like the beginning of another revolution I've heard of...

Edit: BB code

[edit on 14-4-2009 by InSpiteOf]

[edit on 14-4-2009 by InSpiteOf]

ah, so now we have a socialist system in the US. I dont see how people keep saying the US is becoming socialist when all the means of production are continually falling into the hands of a smaller and smaller massively wealthy group of people. The whole, and main, point of socialism is that the PEOPLE all share ownership of the means of production. Without that the whole system is not socialism, but fascism. Just as democracy has no meaning when a small group of people (as in america) control legislation through the power of their massive wealth.

We in america are far from socialism, just as we are far from democracy. What we ARE is unfettered capitalism (the market, or OWNERS of the market get to regulate [or deregulate] everything), and a monopolistic oligarchy.

And please dont think we're gullible enough to buy the idea that "Castro assassinated kennedy"....come on!

One last point to make. You certainly cant heckle anyone on here about the child labor used to create the cuban cigars they would like to smoke. Its no worse than the slave labor in fatal conditions in africa mining toxic and radioactive materials that provide YOU with the essential components needed for that laptop computer or cell phone that YOU take for granted.