Your American's fear of socialism is so funny..

Did you know that China, before it became a capitalist country like America,
provided excellent and completely free health care to all its citizens? Before
the American way of life corrupted the world, many countries were far better
places to live in. Now the canyon between rich and poor is increasing pretty
much everywhere.

The free market and capitalism are the worst catastrophes that have ever
happened to human society in this age. You people don't seem to see the
difference between autocracy and socialism.

Autocracy is bad, capitalism is bad, free market is bad.. socialism is good!
Many of the countries you label communist countries, are in fact autocratic,
not communist. But because the notion that a government should look after
its people has been so poisoned by the media, and you people can't seem to
think for yourselves anymore, you all seem to think your way of life is good,
and that it should continue to spread across the world.

Please wake up..

The situation in this world is obviously not the fault of American citizens,
and even your government, as well as the British government; the two
governments who are responsible, are under the control of the ruling family.
But your duty is to see through the lies and recognize the truth, so you don't
end up actually supporting this rotten state of affairs on Earth.

[edit on (13/4/09) by Wehali]

How long do you suppose it will be before Brother Castro is sleeping in the Lincoln Bedroom??

After all, we all wanted change!

ElectricUniverse,

What you write, only makes sense if you ignore the rest of my post.

But I guess that's why you ignored it.

Mao's China and Stalin's Sovjet Union, were not communist regimes,
they were autocracies, dictatorships. They had nothing to do with real
socialism or communism. My point was that capitalism caused the
living conditions of the general Chinese citizen, to become far worse
than it has ever been. I didn't say their living conditions were ideal,
but now they are even worse, and that counts for every single country
who adopted the American way of government: free market, capitalism
and your twisted version of democracy. Any influence the voter has in
this system, is entirely fictional.

[edit on (13/4/09) by Wehali]

Originally posted by Wehali
ElectricUniverse,

What you write, only makes sense if you ignore the rest of my post.

But I guess that's why you ignored it.

I did not ignore the rest of your post at all, i just excerpted part of your post, because it is against ATS policy to excerpt a long article, or a response...

You are doing nothing more than trying to propagate the same Communist dogma that other Communist used to indoctrinate people into believing their lies.

Communism, through True Socialism has always oppressed people.

Now Capitalism is being dismantled by generations of leftists who have no idea, nor experience on what True Socialism, and Communism is, and what it does to the people, and the country that becomes Communist.

I was born and lived through Communism, and it's indoctrination which starts since early childhood, to accept the Communist programs, and which are slowly being implemented in the United States.

The same thing happened with Chavez, many people were claiming he was not Communist meanwhile people who have lived through Communism could clearly see that the programs and the rethoric he was implementing in Venezuela were all Communist.

Now, after a couple years of having consolidated his power, Chavez has declared that he is a Communist, and now the same thing seems to be repeating in the United States of America, which is not going to be good for the regular American people.

The new programs being implemented in the Republic by the present administration are transforming the nation either into a National Socialist regime, similar to 1930s Germany, or worse, a Communist regime.

This is the way that TPTB will grab the approval of the people at the beginning, by regurgitating the same lies that Communists used to "CHANGE" their country, and when it is too late people will finally see what they allowed to happen.



[edit on 13-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

I am a pretty darned conservative Texan. My political leanings, however, would be more libertarian/constitutionalist.

having said that (for all you political shills who want to make everything a "GOP vs Liberal argument, please just keep it to yourself as i don't play by those rules), this is the best thing i have seen in quite some time.

It is a failed policy. Our ignoring of Cuba for the last 40 years has done nothing more than make us look stupid, and punish the Cuban people (who have not been able to benefit from American tourism money).

To Shrodingers Dog: dude, i love it when you pull out logic and then state it so simply. Bravo, good sir.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
...............
It is a failed policy. Our ignoring of Cuba for the last 40 years has done nothing more than make us look stupid, and punish the Cuban people (who have not been able to benefit from American tourism money).

To Shrodingers Dog: dude, i love it when you pull out logic and then state it so simply. Bravo, good sir.

Well, since it is evident you have never lived in Cuba it can be said that you have no evidence at all to support your claim that a complete open policy will help the Cuban people...

Meanwhile the United States has had restrictions on Cuba, EUROPEAN nations, including Canada have had open relationships with the Communist regime, and this has never helped the Cuban people. It just helped for the Communist dictatorship to remain in power.



[edit on 13-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

I'm astonished how ideology can cloud otherwise intelligent people into goofy modes of thinking, completely ignoring pragmatism in the marketplace.

Cuba, huge new market to be exploited by capitalist and entrepreneurs.
Opening up markets in any country, socialist, communist or wiccan, this benefits both countries, lessens tensions and allows families to be reunited.

I'm with BFFT, the embargo was so stupid with no real connection to reality.

I can't wait to go permit, tarpon and bone fishing like Hemingway used to do off shore of Cuba and enjoy a nice plate of Ropa vieja.



[edit on 13-4-2009 by whaaa]

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse


Well, since it is evident you have never lived in Cuba it can be said that you have no evidence at all to support your claim that a complete open policy will help the Cuban people...

Meanwhile the United States has had restrictions on Cuba, EUROPEAN nations, including Canada have had open relationships with the Communist regime, and this has never helped the Cuban people. It just helped for the Communist dictatorship to remain in power.



[edit on 13-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

You don't think that increased cash flow to that impoverished island would help? You don't think that the proximity of the Gulf Coast would make it MUCH more feasible for US citizens to visit Cuba than the Canadians or EU's? You don't think that a burgeoning tourist industry would help improve the daily lives of most Cubans? And you don't think an amiable relationship with the government might provide for a possibility that some Cuban citizens might get to enjoy visits with family members that have been estranged for what, for most of us, exceeds a lifetime?

Did the EU or Canadian tourism really provide any cash flow? If i were Canadian and had to choose where to travel for vacation, i would choose somewhere such as Jamaica or some other friendly territory. I also believe that US investors could certainly help improve the overall tourism, anyway.

Regardless, it is a hypocritical policy. We maintain relations with several, several other communist regimes and have propped up countless cruel dictators.

Do i like Obama? Not really...but his decision here is solid.

Originally posted by 5thElement
..................
Communism, as envisioned and defined by it's main thinkers (K. Marx and F. Engels), simply and clearly never existed in the real world, it is a theoretical model/state of EVOLVED human society, a projection of how things cold/will be sometime in the future, a possible final goal of those who seek equality of all humans on all possible levels

I'm looking forward to see sanctions against Cuba lifted

Somehow when faced with the facts? Are you serious?... Where were you born, and where did you live all of your life?...

Have you experienced Communism and seen what it does?

Your response is the same response that every Communist/Marxist/Revolutionary states to try to claim their "perfect Permanent Revolution" has never existed.

This is nothing more than an excuse to "try again" the same old dictatorship that has murdered so many people, for the good of the revolution, and which also imprisoned, and also murdered millions for their political beliefs.

BTW I am not claiming you are Communist, but I am stating you are making the same excuses they make so that people swallow their same old lies.





[edit on 13-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

You know, resisting capitalism is always a short term situation and reminds me of a Family Guy quote:

"It's just like having sex with Kobe Bryant. You can kick and scream all you want...but it's still gonna happen.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

You don't think that increased cash flow to that impoverished island would help? You don't think that the proximity of the Gulf Coast would make it MUCH more feasible for US citizens to visit Cuba than the Canadians or EU's? You don't think that a burgeoning tourist industry would help improve the daily lives of most Cubans? And you don't think an amiable relationship with the government might provide for a possibility that some Cuban citizens might get to enjoy visits with family members that have been estranged for what, for most of us, exceeds a lifetime?
..............

It has not helped the people, it has helped the dictatorship.

I still see people who have never even visited the island vote for your statements, obviously not knowing the truth and trying to dismiss and disregard someone who was born in Cuba, has lived under the Communist regime, and still has family there...

Again, if this program is as stated in Spanish news circles, then it will help the people...

You actually think that someone like me, who has family in the island would not like such a program if in fact it was for the good of the people which includes my family still living there?

In spanish circles what they are saying is that this is lifting sanctions only for Cubans living in the U.S., and not an open policy for all Americans who have no idea what their money will do to the people in the island.

There are no "private ownership of any businesses in Cuba", unless it is the black market, or unless it is an European business wiht the dictatorship, and regular tourists do not buy from the black market, but rather form the Communist owned stores which means all their money goes to the dictatirial government, and not to the Cuban people.

It is a sad day when Americans, Europeans, and others living abroad do not want to believe what Cubans living outside of the island have to tell them about Cuba...

Now-a-day, and for quite some time, there seems to be a belief among those who have no experience in what happens in countries like Cuba to deny anything, and everything that the people who have experienced those dictatorships have to say about them...

Shame indeed since these people are not denying ignorance, but are just denying facts.




[edit on 13-4-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

This is good news for everyone involved - Cuban people, Cuban Americans, and the American public. Obama is making the right steps in this respect, and more importantly he is doing it with a long-term outlook.


The issue with embargoes and total political isolation of countries like Cuba and North Korea, is that it does little except strengthen the regimes there. Without trade and open contact with the US, the Cubans are more reliant on the government to run all of the country's affairs - social and economic. Without trade Cuba is forced to structure itself around a centrally-planed economy, which in turn gives Castro even more power. Furthermore political isolation prevent american ideology from reaching Cuba.

Thus the embargoes do not work - at least not in the way they are designed to. And besides that, it is time to leave the past grudges behind already. An entire generation has lapsed since the Bay of Pigs. Virtually every other country in the world has opened up travel and trade with Cuba, including Canada.



I heard some analysts predict that nothing will bring about an end to Communist regime in Cuba faster, than open trade and communication with the US. The government will lose its role as an economic figurehead, and open trade will foster capitalist innitiatives. And unlike China, Cuba's communist party is not so well embedded as to prevent an eventual transition from capitalism to an actual democracy. I also believe that Raul Castro is more open toward democratic change - that is if America follows through with easing restrictions on travel and trade.

The lesson is that completely ignoring and cutting off all relations with countries under authoritarian regimes almost never works. Obama's strategy is not just to ease tension with Cuba, but in the long-term to introduce change to Cuban government.

Any new dialogue and discussion between close states is a good thing.
No matter what idiot thinking some people subscribe to.

Maybe, just maybe, the last 2 thousand years have been full of blood, pain and suffering because we believe ignoring and isolating nations is better than talking and opening our arms?

your right, how dare we take a chance and talk.
what stupid idea.

surprised some of you didnt think of it already!

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Any new dialogue and discussion between close states is a good thing.
No matter what idiot thinking some people subscribe to.

I still do not completely understand why the Bush administration toughened the travel and communication restriction against Cuba. The people who were most p*ssed off about it were none other than Cuban Americans - those who hated the Castro regime but wanted to help out their relatives in Cuba.

Perhaps Bush was relying on nothing more than a half-century old grudge. Well where is any progress in that? If everyone held on to all of our ethnical and national grudges for a century, then today we would have nothing but a load of locked out countries completely isolated from each other.