Why do Atheists care about religion?

Originally posted by 5thElementDon't take my word for this...But...

One of the major reasons, IMO, that destroys so many (statistically speaking) marriages in USA, where Cristian faith predominates, is that people trust and find God and Jesus more important in their life that their own spouses (or anybody else in their family for that matter).

Often, rather than deal with reality of family problems them selfs, people turn to faith and religion to intermediate and guide them through it, which is more likely doomed to fail

"Prayer, the way to nothing and think you're helping." People pray for guidance instead of dealing with problems. If Jesus was really there, it might help. He isn't, so it don't.

Originally posted by Gawdzilla

Originally posted by 5thElementDon't take my word for this...But...

One of the major reasons, IMO, that destroys so many (statistically speaking) marriages in USA, where Cristian faith predominates, is that people trust and find God and Jesus more important in their life that their own spouses (or anybody else in their family for that matter).

Often, rather than deal with reality of family problems them selfs, people turn to faith and religion to intermediate and guide them through it, which is more likely doomed to fail

"Prayer, the way to nothing and think you're helping." People pray for guidance instead of dealing with problems. If Jesus was really there, it might help. He isn't, so it don't.

I remember someone telling me once that a single pair of hands at work can get more done than a thousand clasped in prayer.

I've always been more about work than prayer, even when I was a Christian, I never prayed and expected something to happen without work.

Originally posted by Kiltedninja
I've always been more about work than prayer, even when I was a Christian, I never prayed and expected something to happen without work.

Take away the prayer and you'll get the same result.

Exactly. With a god that is apparently omniscient, there is very little point in trying to make it more aware of your situation in hopes that it may be moved to do something - cos doing something's hard for an omnipotent god. Yup.

[edit on 5-5-2009 by Welfhard]

Prayer is a very personal thing i think. I don't see anything wrong if a person chooses to pray to God for his own reasons. If it makes him /her feel good.

Praying can be like meditation like any other form for meditation. But to pray to God to fix things in your personal life would be a waste of time i think.
I think we all have to chip in and fix our own lives if we want something good out of it. On this part i think the Bible has some really good examples. Like treating your self, other people, matter and things with respect. Like the way you your self would like to be treated.

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by spy66
Prayer is a very personal thing i think. I don't see anything wrong if a person chooses to pray to God for his own reasons. If it makes him /her feel good.

Praying instead of acting is a good way to fail. Ever hear the story about the lady in a flood?

reply to post by spy66


It's kind of a cheat though, where we do all the work and God takes all the credit. Slacker comes to mind.

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by spy66

 

It's kind of a cheat though, where we do all the work and God takes all the credit. Slacker comes to mind.

Welfhard!!!

Sweet job with this thread....wow...big one...!!! OT proud of you...

OK....


With that said, here's a challenge...u ready?

After this semester read RED LETTER CHRISTIANS by Dr. Anthony Campolo...ok?

Dare u?

OT readin' now..

Originally posted by Gawdzilla

Originally posted by spy66
Prayer is a very personal thing i think. I don't see anything wrong if a person chooses to pray to God for his own reasons. If it makes him /her feel good.

Praying instead of acting is a good way to fail. Ever hear the story about the lady in a flood?

G, great point about replacing prayer with action...what's up with the lady?
MNIGHT SHALALALAMAN stuff?

Originally posted by spy66
Prayer is a very personal thing i think.

yes......but its much much more....


just give it some time....a few decades.....and you'll c....its darn powerful....


I could list a few dozen, who rejected vehemently 20 rs ago...today they are baptized, preachin' maniacs


IT WORKS!!!!!! With the eternal God (who is not bound by time) it's a vantage pt thang!

see here for more.... www.abovetopsecret.com...

1) Quantum Physics (OT is a rookie here) "Quantum" comes from the Latin meaning "how much." It refers to the discrete units of matter and energy that are predicted by and observed in quantum physics. Light waves act like particles and particles act like waves (called wave particle duality). Matter can go from one spot to another without moving through the intervening space Quantum optics is a branch of quantum physics that focuses primarily on the behavior of light, or photons. At the level of quantum optics, the behavior of individual photons has a bearing on the outcoming light, as opposed to classical optics, which was developed by Sir Isaac Newton. Quantum Electrodynamics (QED): Quantum electrodynamics (QED) is the study of how electrons and photons interact. Unified Field Theory is a collection of research paths that are trying to reconcile quantum physics with Einstein's theory of general relativity, often by trying to consolidate the fundamental forces of physics. Source: physics.about.com...

2) Cosmology (OT is a rookie here, too)

Links: search.live.com...

Cosmology, study of the universe as a whole, including its distant past and its future. Cosmologists study the universe observationally—by looking at the universe—and theoretically—by using physical laws and theories to predict how the universe should behave. Cosmology is a branch of astronomy, but the observational and theoretical techniques used by cosmologists involve a wide range of other sciences, such as physics and chemistry. Cosmology is distinguished from cosmogony, which used to mean the study of the origin of the universe but now usually refers only to the study of the origin of the solar system. Source: Encarta Encyclopedia


3) Hebrew and Greek scriptures (I am more familiar here)

4) 7 Dimensions/Super String theory/unified string theory????? (OT clueless here, too)


Definitions/Assumptions/Factors:
1) ‘Faith’-Greek ‘pitis’ Translation=belief (spoken)

2) ‘Substance’- Greek ‘hupostasis’ Translation=substructure/actual existence/real being/ substantial quality, nature, of a person or ‘thing’

Hebrews 11:1 ‘FAITH’ is the ‘SUBSTANCE’ of THINGS…


3) Faith mixed with words creates things…All those Genesis phrases, ”And God said…and saw” Is creation a big affirmation of God? Romans 10:17 says “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the WORDS of God.

4) Jesus Christ ‘HOLDS’ all things together. Here are some verses and thoughts…
a. Verses: John 1:1-3 & 14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
b. Verses: Col 1:15-17 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
c. Thought: The Word of God was in the beginning before anything was created. The Word of God always was, the Word of God had no beginning. In the beginning the Word of God was God. The Word of God created all things that ever existed and nothing has ever existed apart from the Word of God. The Word of God became flesh, He became a human, He became one of us and lived with us. He revealed the glory of God to us, He made God known to us. Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Jesus Christ is God and always was God, the Creator of all things. Jesus Christ is the one and only Almighty God.
d. Thought: We cannot see God but when we see Jesus Christ we see God, because Jesus Christ is the image of God. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came to reveal God to us. Being called the first-born of all creation could not mean that He was the first to be created because He Himself is the creator of all things. The first-born of all creation conveys the idea that He has the birthright to all creation, the idea that He is the head of all creation. All creation is subject to Him, He is the ruler of all creation, because He was before all creation and all creation comes from Him. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, not only created all things by His power but He also holds all things together by His power. Jesus Christ is God Almighty.


5) Laminin-see youtube…it’s a bit chessy, but I felt it contributes to the discussion. Start at time 2:40 for the meat (again, sorry for the background piano/emotion, just listen to the content) www.youtube.com...


6) What’s missing in Quantum Physics? Mathematically, why doesn’t it all break apart? The more we learn about subatomic particles called ‘gluons’, the more the universe seems to be made of nothing at all? Scientist says that all the electrons and subatomic particles of an atom are held together in their precise position and orbit by an invisible force, by which without it, everything would fall apart and reality as we know it, would cease to exist in an instant.
Quotes from Discovery Magazine in 2000, “The weirdness comes from the gluons. Quantum chromodynamics, the force that holds protons together, is modeled closely on quantum electrodynamics, the force that holds atoms together—but the gluons change screening to antiscreening, intuitive to bizarre.” And, “The closer you look, the more you find the proton is dissolving into lots of particles, each of which is carrying very, very little energy," says Wilczek. "And the elements of reality that triggered the whole thing, the quarks, are these tiny little things in the middle of the cloud. In fact, if you follow the evolution to infinitely short distances, the triggering charge goes to zero. If you really study the equations, it gets almost mystical." More info here: discovermagazine.com...

Another question? Saw this on ‘Genius Forum’ Is there substance that holds all things together? According to the ‘Bundle Theory’ there isn't. It says all things are just bundles or sums of their properties. The objection to this view comes from the substrate theory which asks: If there is no substance what is it that holds these properties together? There must be some substance that has these properties is what they say.

We never reach the substance because whenever we talk about something we talk about its properties. The definition of substance makes it impossible. Substance would be something that has no properties, which is unthinkable.

At the fundamental level all things are made out of subatomic particles, if I'm not mistaken. Namely, electrons, protons and neutrons. The number of protons in a nucleus determines an atom's chemical element, and chemical elements and their various combinations are what everything is made of (excluding dark energy and dark matter).

However there is an even more fundamental level. Leptons, quarks (particles that make up protons and neutrons) and gauge bosons (which are the carriers of fundamental forces) are regarded as fundamental particles because they have no substructure that we know of. If this is true then they are the particles from which everything else is made of, which makes them the closest we get to substance.”

Originally posted by Kiltedninja
.....even when I was a Christian, .....

K, why'd you leave?

Curious OT

reply to post by Gawdzilla


If the woman in the flood recited poetry or sang she would have drowned too.
It doesn't diminish prayer -the story of the woman in the flood merely demonstrates
to simple-minded people that prayer is situational and is
inappropriate instead of action.
Atheists lack clarity on the purpose of praying.
Prayer is as I said more of an artistic exercise like song or poetry.
Prayer in fact is a sacred form of poetry.

Nihilist atheist bigots always misuse prayer in their retarded examples.

Prayer can be for mind purification like meditation.
Prayer can be for evoking religious feeling like sacred music or poetry.
Being against prayer is like being against music, poetry or art.
If you substitute music, poetry or art in the lame examples atheists
come up with then they are inappropriate to specific situations requiring action.
Everybody knows this that is spiritually literate.

Originally posted by OldThinker
Welfhard!!!

Hey, I call em like I see em.

Nice job on the retort, by the way. Yoy deflected so quick that I barely even noticed. Along with failing to respond to any of my other points.

But it's true though. We do things and when they go wrong, we get blamed. But when they go right, God gets credit. How is that responsibility.

Do want a challenge?

Luke 6:30 [look it up if you don't know off by heart]

.... Right with that in mind, I'm asking you to wire me $US 30.

Have a good one.

[edit on 5-5-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by Welfhard


I guess that means NO, you want take my challenge?????

OT

With “faith” one cannot debate anything scientific, because faith is kind of a feeling. I’m sure there were many who did just things in faith and believed they were doing a good thing, only to find that they should have looked at the instructions on how to rebuild the small block Chevy to spec, and not gone with what they felt in their heart of hearts. I was raised atheist, never been angry with god, because I do not believe in one. I do not care about religion; it’s the followers of them I care about, because they operate on a different set of rules. That is almost ok with me…it’s that they have a burning desire to assimilate everything in their path, that I find crazy. There are thousands of fantastic books in the world, but one does not become worldly without seeing the world, read what you may and form opinions, but do not try and convince your good neighbor oranges are evil and apples are the only true fruit. (Or the other way around)

The world can be split along two lines

Those with fixed ideas (beliefs) which the (believers) have usually got from some Bronze Age book (generally forced on them when they where to young to know better) and non-believers who really hate fixed ideas.

Some thoughts on how this works

For believers, if and when new ideas come along that effects or negates their beliefs, they ether have to ignore it or try to debunk it (see Christian fundamentalists and evolution). All this new information makes the world a cold and terrible place since reality has no interest in their beliefs and reality is not swayed by their beliefs, so this leaves the believers with 3 options

1 – make more people like themselves – filling other peoples heads with these bronze age ideas – and so stopping any new ideas that way

2 – wait, desperately hopping that a giant invisible sky pixy will come down and make the world over – more inline with their beliefs.

3 - die and go to some place where their beliefs are fully supported

Also when things go wrong believers can simply blame others who don’t have the right kinds of beliefs or they can pray (this looks to the outside observer like they are doing nothing, but the believer thinks they are helping)

The other kind of people, usually called atheists/agnostics (non-believers) are people who have nothing but questions, they have no real fixed beliefs, they do have chains or structures of ideas (that in others might look like beliefs), the difference being that when new information comes along the non-believer will simple drop or change any ideas (beliefs) that are effected by this new information without a seconds thought.

One point here, if information that god was real became available a non-believer would factor this new information in their thinking without much problem.

This makes the world a very nice and interesting place to live (if it wasn’t for all those dam believers) yes-bad stuff happens, but some non-believers have even learned to embrace such times as opportunities for change and growth also in bad times non-believers act to fix the problems and not sit around praying and blaming others.

cont.

But all this rises some points

1 believers – non-believers don’t care how much you point out your god is going to cook the non-believer in his pot for non-belief, a non-believer is just not worried by that, they have probably looked at your beliefs and decide the beliefs are wrong - end of story.

2 believers – no you don’t hold the moral high ground, all people tend to be good – believers and non- believers alike, and most non-believers have a highly developed sense of ethics and just don’t need your Bronze Age stuff, thanks. Also non-believers have studied history and know what happens when believers are in charge, burning (people and books) and all the oppression and ignorance. And yes believers, some of you are strapping bombs on yourselves and exploding in crowed markets or flying planes into buildings and that’s not helping your case either.

3 believers – no non-believers aren’t really believers who have fooled themselves in to not believing in your particular god nor do they hate your god and work for the enemy of your god – they just don’t believe in your god, in the same way you don’t believe in the flying spaghetti monster - ok

4 believers – no your beliefs don’t give you any kind of super powers and your beliefs don’t make you so wonderful that non-believers wont to be like you, in fact to non-believers you look like a bunch of constipated angry idiots – sorry.

5 believers – no there is no proof that your god is real and that includes your book, yes we know your book says its telling the truth but unfortunately that’s not real proof. And posting bits out of your book doesn’t help, in fact you know that wheel on top of your mouse, that was invented by a non-believer so we could wiz past all the bible/Koran verse’s you post, so you might as well stop doing that.

6 believers – non-believers use logic and reason constantly on any new ideas they come across and they don’t accept ideas that don’t pass that test. What you as believers have are beliefs and not facts (i.e. talking snakes and the moon cut in half ect.) and that of cause is just a lot of nonsense to a non- believer. Non-believers are experts with logic and reason this means that a non- believer can beat to death any believer with logic and reason in any honest debate (believers just don’t stand a chance)

7 believers – to some of you, your belief is a crutch, and not everyone needs a crutch.

And for the non- believers

1 no you cannot fix a believer by pointing out the illogic of the rubbish they believe, in fact it just seems to annoy the believer

2 yes its great fun er I mean, a valid experiment to make the believer run through the maze of their beliefs, but again it just seems to annoy the believer

3 relax- yes religion is now circling the drain, we seem to be in a new age of enlightenment (hurray)

4 relax – there might be a spiritual side to life, so don’t chuck the baby out with the bath water. A personal note here, I have taken up chi-gung to help fix a bad back – guess what, it works really well – ok so making an effort to stand correctly and breath properly will improve your health, but I decided to look at the chi part of chi-gung and I’m starting to think there might be something to that as well.

Ok so you might guess I’m in the non-believer camp and there are probably advantages to being a believer I’m not aware of, perhaps being part of a group mind is nice?

reply to post by cathedral

The other kind of people, usually called atheists/agnostics (non-believers) are people who have nothing but questions, they have no real fixed beliefs, they do have chains or structures of ideas (that in others might look like beliefs), the difference being that when new information comes along the non-believer will simple drop or change any ideas (beliefs) that are effected by this new information without a seconds thought.

Since when does someone who states "no way, no how" having nothing but questions or no real fixed beliefs???? They think they have their answer just like those believers you speak of, albeit not the same one. Think you need to drop atheists from that first sentence.




[edit on 6-5-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


Yep your right

But what about the fact that while I’m an atheist about Christianity/Islam I’m an agnostic when it comes to there being some kind of deity?