Why do Atheists care about religion?, page 1

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Topic started on 11-4-2009 @ 05:29 AM by Welfhard

Good question, huh. You would think that when an atheist became atheist he or she would have wiped their hands of Faith, Church and religion in general. Well, we'd like to be able to do that but religion doesn't exist just inside of their respective "holy" buildings and groups. No, today it is all around us in every, even the most mundane aspects of our lives.

You've heard it said before on ATS that "In God we trust" and "One Nation under God" shouldn't be in there, (and they shouldn't; it goes against respecting people's right to believe whatever about whatever) but it goes further than that. The Christians of America believe they deserve more, or are entitled to more rights and priliges than anyone else, and when they don't get it, they moan and the bitch and the whine and call it an outrage until they do get it - the Political Method.

This image is a bit big so I'll just link it:

But the moment that contrary beliefs or ideas are put out for all to see, they whine, bitch and moan to get it removed - that their faith and their right to believe is being trivialised and quashed somehow.

You remember the atheist bus and the stink that it caused (yes, ok it was in Britain but still)? The Christian bus driver who refused to do his job because of the slogan? As if writing on the side of a bus somehow negated his faith... like some hex or something, I guess. The buses were in response to all the Christian Rhetoric anyway.

YouTube Link

Yet is still goes beyond that even. Atheists are the least trusted group in the US these days. Christians insist that their right to pray in school is being violated when it isn't. You can pray at school when it's not class time; there is a time and a place for everything, in class at class time it is time to learn not worship so don't get upset by the idea that others won't give you special privileges or exemptions. On the part of teachers.

When acting in their official capacities as representatives of the state, teachers, school administrators, and other school employees are prohibited by the Establishment Clause from encouraging or discouraging prayer, and from actively participating in such activity with students. Teachers may, however, take part in religious activities where the overall context makes clear that they are not participating in their official capacities.

Don't tantrum about this, you have what is reasonable.

George H. W. Bush said August 27, 1987.
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
Yes, George. One nation under God as of April 30, 1951, anyway.

What about Law? Surely not, surely atheist and theists are equal here?! Well no. An atheist cannot hold Office in: Arkansas; Maryland; Mississippi; North Carolina; South Carolina; Tennessee. Thankfully such laws were ruled unconstitutional in the 1961 Supreme Court case Torcaso v. Watkins. First Amendment Right.

Creationism in Schools? Teaching Christian beliefs to secular children of potentially many faiths? Doesn't that again somehow undermine the Constitution?

Not the Boy Scouts too?!
"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."

Because atheists and agnostics are incapable of being good citizens, right? As are gays apparently.
"Boy Scouts of America believes that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the obligations in the Scout Oath and Scout Law to be morally straight and clean in thought, word, and deed. The conduct of youth members must be in compliance with the Scout Oath and Law, and membership in Boy Scouts of America is contingent upon the willingness to accept Scouting’s values and beliefs."

Although in places the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy is enough to let them in.

To put it in a more youtube-y way.

YouTube Link

And that is why we care. We are the one's being persecuted, we don't apreciate being treated less than equal, and those of Christian denominations getting so much favouritism. Like all people, we have our "god given" rights.

From Heckler speaking personally on a similar topic.
Oh my God, atheists want to speak out

Edit: I know there are some of you Christian's out there who do respect other peoples beliefs or lack there of, and thank you, (it is sincerely appreciated), but try to see the indecency of your peers and your people. Don't contribute to fairness becoming un-American.

[edit on 11-4-2009 by Welfhard]

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 06:11 AM by lastxdance

The same atheist/secular government is going against the founding father's visions for a beautiful, free country. If George Washington wasn't given that angelic vision at Valley Forge to encourage him to keep going then maybe we wouldn't be here the way we are. Undoubtedly he meant World War III and civil war in a time like ours. The Bible and God are the only ones that claim to be right. No other religions really claim that, merely the people say THEY are right. I'm right it's me is just human nature. People seek out ghosts, spiritism, UFOs and aliens, origins of life, yet God seeks people, and no one will hear. Plus if you put the passages together you get modern descriptions of New York City and its skyline our national flag's colors, etc. The Bible might just be right, and contrary to popular belief science merely adds to its validity. Atheists care for religion, because if they didn't the Bible would be wrong.

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 06:14 AM by chapter29

reply to post by Welfhard

Look, you put a good thread together, but for what..?

This seems to be more of a personal validation than an explanation...

We are the one's being persecuted, we don't apreciate being treated less than equal,

Atheists are not being persecuted...give me a personal example of how YOUR life has been affected by the religious right.

And I DO appreciate it when I'm treated less than equal by the other side - it reminds me that I am living in their head and not paying rent...

And let them take down the billboards and not drive the buses...it just brings more attention to the subject matter.

Toughen up man...

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 06:15 AM by Welfhard

reply to post by lastxdance

The Bible might just be right, and contrary to popular belief science merely adds to its validity.

Care to share?

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 06:19 AM by Gawdzilla

reply to post by lastxdance

Okay, then. The BuyBull is wrong.

I am an atheist and I don't care for religions. I care that the Faithful are trying to jam religion down my throat. You loose fingers when you try that.

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 06:20 AM by spellbound

reply to post by Welfhard

Yes, I see why that would be bad for you.

Could you tell me what you believe in?

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 06:20 AM by Gawdzilla

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by lastxdance

The Bible might just be right, and contrary to popular belief science merely adds to its validity.

Care to share?

Don't get your hopes up. The bluster is strong with this one. Unfounded assertions are rather rife here, and answers are hard to come by.

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 06:35 AM by Welfhard

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by Welfhard

Yes, I see why that would be bad for you.

Could you tell me what you believe in?

I shouldn't have to point out that it doesn't actually matter what I believe in this context, but if you must know I have no belief in the existence of God or gods. I can't rule out the possibility, but the assertion that one exists in spite of the lack of evidence for is not something I'm willing to do.

[edit on 11-4-2009 by Welfhard]

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 06:40 AM by lastxdance

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by lastxdance

The Bible might just be right, and contrary to popular belief science merely adds to its validity.

Care to share?

It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. (Isaiah 40:22) As far as I know back then the Earth was flat.

"He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing."
Job 26:7 This speaks for itself I think.

God asked Job “Can you bind (as in bound by GRAVITY) the cluster of the Pleiades, Or loose the belt of Orion?” Job 38:31

The Seven Days of Creation are not seven days in a literal sense. The final day has no morning or night, thus is still occuring now, meaning the days of creation refer to billions of years of processes.

This is not bible codes, but VERY INTERESTING MATHEMATICAL PRECISION relating to PI in the TORAH.

ad2004.com...

www.ad2004.com...

This man is an expert statistical analyst and codes researcher.

It seems God indeed controls the weather, or was it enhanced?

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 06:44 AM by Gawdzilla

reply to post by lastxdance

"The Seven Days of Creation are not seven days in a literal sense. The final day has no morning or night, thus is still occuring now, meaning the days of creation refer to billions of years of processes."
Ah, again we get to cherry-pick from the BuyBull. Does anyone have a blueprint of which parts we're supposed to take literally and which are allegory? ONE blueprint, please. Not just the attitudes of the current reader, but something from the Great Sky Fairy to help the BS filter sift out the junk added to the BuyBull by successive layers of editing, pruning and grafting.

Using the BuyBull to prove the BuyBull is a good way to wind up biting yourself on the small of the back.

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 06:47 AM by Welfhard

Originally posted by lastxdance
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. (Isaiah 40:22) As far as I know back then the Earth was flat.

Space and stars isn't a curtain, a sheet or a tent that hangs over the world, tis a void which appears to be draped over the world similarly to the description of the ignorant ancients.

Also the earth never has been flat. [face palm]

"He stretches out the north over empty space And hangs the earth on nothing."
Job 26:7 This speaks for itself I think.

That the authors weren't aware that the earth was locked into a gravity well orbiting the sun, when orbiting is technically falling?

God asked Job “Can you bind (as in bound by GRAVITY) the cluster of the Pleiades, Or loose the belt of Orion?” Job 38:31

Surely they would've said gravity if they meant gravity.

The Seven Days of Creation are not seven days in a literal sense. The final day has no morning or night, thus is still occuring now, meaning the days of creation refer to billions of years of processes.

It's also a story where light is there before the sun the earth orbits. Paradoxical!

So what else?

This is not bible codes, but VERY INTERESTING MATHEMATICAL PRECISION relating to PI in the TORAH.

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 07:02 AM by lastxdance

I meant everyone around the known world back then assumed the EARTH WAS FLAT. Compare that to Isaiah's description of the Earth.

The curtain thing is simply a way of saying something in ancient context. The authors of the Bible knew nothing of orbit or free fall as only now in these more recent times can we prove these things that were there before. Science ignores the fact that God himself claims sovereignty over science and he invented it. Everything out there in deep space is meant to be looked at. The spiral galaxies, the colors, zodiac signs, and such. Faith puts meaning behind existence, science puts meaninglessness behind existence saying the Big Bang happened, not WHY it happened. Not a quantum fluctuation that is random, though at these levels physics don't apply and particles do come into and out of existence without reason at these levels. Not on the level of the Big Bang as there was no space for the particles to occupy. Ex Nihilo Nihil Fit or "out of nothing comes nothing."

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 07:10 AM by Welfhard

Originally posted by lastxdance
I meant everyone around the known world back then assumed the EARTH WAS FLAT.

The curtain thing is simply a way of saying something in ancient context. The authors of the Bible knew nothing of orbit or free fall as only now in these more recent times can we prove these things that were there before.

But wouldn't it be great if the people back then were informed by their deity that these things were so (especially in faith as they would be without proof) only to be confirmed by science 1000's of years later? [/sarcasm]

Faith puts meaning behind existence, science puts meaninglessness behind existence saying the Big Bang happened

You don't get science, do you? The Scientific Method is a tool for gathering knowledge, not a philosophy. It's not there to answer "why" but "what" and "how". The "why" is down to the individual

Time to go back on topic. These semantics are ultimately irrelevant to this discussion.

[edit on 11-4-2009 by Welfhard]

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 07:11 AM by lastxdance

Also to say God cannot encode a text is really putting limits on God. Yes there are many findings but none of them on a purely scientific and statistical standpoint match the level of the Torah Codes. The best skeptics have come up with 7 uncluttered and unorganized terms, while the best Torah Bible matrixes far exceed chance, they are usually complete sentences (skeptics have NEVER found one of these and none of them are skip 1. in the Bible.) A good shining example is the massive matrix of 100+ terms in a few verses out of Isaiah about Jesus being the messiah. All of the terms cross in stunningly intricate cross shaped patterns, and there are 22 crosses that have been found to cluster. You can even ask it a question and find a REPLY from God encoded. Bible matrixes are organized, exceed all probability in the universe, form pictures and shapes, (there is even one about Ohio with a map of the major streets and interstates woven in no joke!!!) Of course there HAS TO BE debate, so people say its there and you can find it in any book. Using a CONTROL TEXT of equal length you can see it is apparently not so.

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 07:16 AM by Welfhard

Also to say God cannot encode a text is really putting limits on God.

I never said he couldn't.

Yes there are many findings but none of them on a purely scientific and statistical standpoint match the level of the Torah Codes.

Unlike codes in Moby Dick?

It doesn't matter. It's totally besides the point of the OP.

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 07:21 AM by lastxdance

Keep in mind the Earth was not proven to be flat until long after the days of Jesus and the Old Testament at that. Good old Albert Einstein even found E=MC2 in the text of Genesis himself. You were considered a heretic if you believed science over religion 500 years ago, now we can see they can be put together. Why refute the existence of a Creator who oversees the creation rather than embrace the fact that He created it. There is so much design all around the universe; it is based on math and physics. He can also take it all away you know.

Albert Einstein
Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.

There are two ways to live your life - one is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is a miracle.

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 07:26 AM by Welfhard

reply to post by lastxdance

Do you have breathing troubles after working in the quote mines? It's not a great idea to quote Einstein, he denounced Christianity, afterall. What me to quote his anti-Christian stuff?

Albert Einstein.
The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." (Ouch!)

Anyway Torah Code criticism.

Look at both sides of the discussion for yourself, don't make me do it for you.

And again, get back on topic FFS. I have no interesting in your conversion rhetoric, ok?

[edit on 11-4-2009 by Welfhard]

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 07:33 AM by lastxdance

The codes in Moby Dick and War and Peace are great examples of how you can find ELS in any book, however in a controlled experiment comparing them to the Bible you'll find that the History Channel wasn't telling the whole story about the codes on that TV special that was on about them yesterday. This is relevant to the topic as you originally posted because it shows you are refuting my beliefs because they are not yours, and that I am disagreeing with you on atheism because it is no longer my belief. Atheism compliments religion and vice versa.

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 07:43 AM by Gawdzilla

Originally posted by lastxdance
Keep in mind the Earth was not proven to be flat until long after the days of Jesus and the Old Testament at that. Good old Albert Einstein even found E=MC2 in the text of Genesis himself. You were considered a heretic if you believed science over religion 500 years ago, now we can see they can be put together. Why refute the existence of a Creator who oversees the creation rather than embrace the fact that He created it. There is so much design all around the universe; it is based on math and physics. He can also take it all away you know.

Albert Einstein
Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.

There are two ways to live your life - one is as though nothing is a miracle, the other is as though everything is a miracle.

People knew the Earth wasn't flat long before Jesus. Simple observation of a ship approaching a coast would demonstrate that. They knew that lookouts on a higher point could see the ships before the sea level observers could. Remember, the ancients weren't stupid, they were just as intelligent as we are.

As for the quote-mining, Albert had other things to say about religion. Pity you cherry-picked one out of all of them.

reply posted on 11-4-2009 @ 07:46 AM by Welfhard

Originally posted by lastxdance
This is relevant to the topic as you originally posted because it shows you are refuting my beliefs because they are not yours,

No it aint, cos I aint refuting your beliefs. Your belief that your belief has evidence on the other hand is a different story because you haven't brought up anything any greater than anecdotal evidence. Not good enough yet debate of science vs religion isn't the point, you just aren't hearing this.

[edit on 11-4-2009 by Welfhard]

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