The problem with Americans today and the world...

Amusing as it may appear to be banding the stereotypes around here, lets not forget that on the internet, and on ATS, we're all equal, and we all abide by the sites Terms and Conditions of Use

So please, lets can the Ad-homs and the personal attacks, and discuss the subject matter. Who knows, that way we might just save the world as we know it....

Well here we go again a simple minded blanket statement trying to encompass over 300 million people and 50 states all in one go.

Talk about ignorance.

For the record some the of the 50 states are based on English common law and others on Spanish law while a few are of French influence all tied together under a federal [Supposedly] Justice system.

As far as some of the points you made about our government I agree but lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

That's right, American men and women who "think" that they know what they are talking about.

I posted on a thread recently and gave a clue as to what this problem is.

The simple fact is that Americans are egotists, and arrogant.

Is there really something wrong with being an egotist and arrogant person?

I have never known #1 superpower not to be an egotistical and arrogant force. I mean don't you imagine that the mighty British Empire was also an egotistical and arrogant nation in its heyday.

Could it be possible that we picked up this egotist and arrogant attitude from our former British motherland? Some things do run in the family.

Problems with the OP's thesis.

America is NOT a common law country, it is based on Statute and Constitutional law.

Since common law by centuries of legal tradition is inferior to statue law (laws passed by legislatures) and must comport to the Constitution (see Article VI) strict common law practices have slowly given way over the years. The traditions of common law remain imbedded in American jurisprudence. Common law traditions such as Habeas Corpus, jury trials, the right to confront one's accuser, the prohibition of crimes of the blood and many others have been codified into statute law.

This phenomenon leaves the field of common law an open playground for misguided and poorly educated individuals.

Past cases that refute what the OP is proposing:

1. United States v. Sloan, 939 F.2d 499, 501 (7th Cir. 1991)

2. United States v. Jagim, 978 F.2d 1032, 1036 (8th Cir. 1992)

3. United States v. Hilgeford, 7 F.3d 1340, 1342 (7th Cir. 1993)

4. United States v. Mundt, 29 F.3d 233 (6th Cir. 1994) ("federal zone" case)

5. Larue v. United States, 959 F.Supp. 957 (C.D.Ill. 1997).

6. Kimmel v. Burnet County Appraisal Dist., 835 S.W.2d 108, 109 (Tex.App. 1992)

7. McKinney v. Regan, 599 F.Supp. 126, 129 (M.D.La. 1984)

8. Lonsdale v. United States, 919 F.2d 1440, 1448 (10th Cir. 1990)

9. United States v. Kruger, 923 F.2d 587, 587-88 (8th Cir. 1991)

10. Clafin v. Houseman, 93 U.S. 130, 136 (1876)

Since the major pivot point of the thesis is destroyed by these cited cases, the rest of the thesis is null and void.

Originally posted by Reading
right lets have it then, im an english citizen although im not as smug and arrogant as the guy who made this thread ill gladly listen to whatever you have to say if you can 100% offer me a way or not paying taxes,rent,water rates,council tax it seems abit to good to be true

firstly can you explain to me step by step because im a little bit confused due to the fact that im clearly not as educated as you, so your saying you can just walk away from society and not have the law after you? you say you have done it and it is amusing to boot i think your words were?

He is talking about becoming a sovereign citizen. It seems he claims to have pulled it off but I have my doubts. I know some people who have tried it. They got away with it for a couple years but they all eventually wound up either in jail or with economic sanctions. In the states you hear about it every so often. Some times it ends up in an armed stand off, eventually the people wind up in jail,

Wesley Snipes is a good example. He was talked into the whole sovereign citizen scene, Bad advice.

It got him three years in jail

The sovereign citizen group then claims, “ he did it wrong”

He did it wrong all right. He listened to the wrong people.

Who say. I have a super secret, super technical, super way that you too don’t have to pay taxes.

Lol

Then they don’t even come visit you in jail.

[Post removed]



Mod edit: 1h.) Spamming: You will not post identical content, or snippets of identical content, to multiple threads in the discussion forums. You will also not create more than one thread for your topic, or create multiple "slightly different" threads for a single topic.

[edit on 4/8/2009 by Majic]

reply to post by dampnickers


The pot prattles on and on to the kettle...which indicates that folk are often(not always but often) the poster child for that which they others of...just an observation...

How about a deeper, darker reality closer to the truth.

Here in the U.S. our liberties, our security, and our economic success are not guaranteed. While we have managed to do some great things, our continued success depends on what we do today. We have to fight for our liberties just like everyone else.

Since the seventies, we have been slowly losing that battle. It might be easy to say that enough of the people have been fooled enough of the time for this to have happened, but it ain't that simple. Europeans aren't really doing any better, neither is Japan or S Korea. If you Europeans don't see the net closing in around you, then you are too busy paying attention to the U.S., instead of paying attention to what is going on in your own countries.

International economic competition is being used to squeeze the working class of the developed nations. Either we allow the IC's that are the CWO to lower the standards of all workers to slave labor, or we push to raise the standards of all workers. This will not happen as long as everyone keeps playing the blame game, and that includes the people of the third world nations as well. The first world can not solve the problems of the third world by absorbing ever growing numbers of immigrants from the third world. With the blame game, we are damned if we do and damned if we don't, and that goes for a majority of the people in all nations. Sooner or later we are going to have to make a choice.

reply to post by Plasma applicator

still i suppose he is right, you end up in jail you dont really have to pay any taxes as such huh? english jails are quite nice compared to american ones, you even get a television access to a gym and a good freind base!

I suppose he will come back and say how i didnt read or research enough, but truth is ill let somebody else try it and not end up on the run like wesley snipes

Wow, really, grouping all Americans like that is rather hasty of you. I agree a lot of them are arrogant and the majority of Americans I have met I have not liked... but it does not mean they are all like that.

There are many problems with governments everywhere but getting rid of all systems is no answer because it will devolve the world into outlawry. And when everyone is sovereign, do we all get diplomatic immunity?

What bothered me about your post is how you disguised your thinking that you're somehow better than everyone, its a very common tactic to say "you all suck" no wait im stereotyping, forgive me. So you do it but know you're doing it, that makes you better than the people who just stereotype? Why do it in the first place then. I think its ironic that you accuse others of being egotistical and closed minded but you yourself come across as having a superiority complex. And on top of that you assume they are violent people and are fuming at you pointing out a truth, and if they deny it they are fools.
I didnt like having to read "just breathe" every few lines, like you're telling a child to calm down. I doubt any American was yelling at their monitor from this.

reply to post by dampnickers


You have a good idea - but I feel that it is...not all entirely true.

Yes, you have "proved" that the your country is also a "(representative) democracy" like "America" (or vice versa)...but that is not the problem.

In BOTH nations, there are very big upsets economically/politically.

I will use the bailouts. The number of Americans against it were far more than a simple majority. Yet they still went through with it.

The amount of tar the people can throw at the government is doing nothing. They "know" we want it back. But they are not giving the people their rightly deserved power back.

Why? Because it is not a true democracy. The problem with Americans today is that many actually think we are being represented fairly, which is far from the case.

The people speak out thinking their voices are being heard, but it is far from the truth. The only times politicians listen to us are when it does not affect their agenda.

The problem with America is that our leaders are not working for us. They will not listen to us, resign for us, whatever. They will only tax us, in a way not good for the country, but their own pockets.

There is a small chance of enough people standing up and going against some of these tyrants...because many people still have "just enough" to go on with their simple life. Only when a large enough portion of citizens lose what they have worked for all their life, is when something will happen.

In this scenario, the nice ones (the people) are also the ignorant ones.

We have given random trust to our leaders out of a blind, nationalistic sense. It is slowly crumbling.

Look at Obama. So called anti-bush administration angel...but when elected, we found out he is about just as bad, or worse.

Did you know that after the bailouts car companies got (GM for ex, the government is now wanting to SPEND MORE MONEY on them?

The people are fed up with it. Yet we feel helpless. The truth is, those of us living somewhat comfortably will never stand up.

Dumb, but amusing.

First off, if you really check into the history of the influences upon the Constitution, you'll find that it draws significant influence from the structure and customs of the Iroquois Confederacy, not just European structures...that influence is what helps make the US unique. en.wikipedia.org...

Second, although I admit to occasional justifiable arrogance, I defy you or anyone else, for that matter, to call me ignorant or unaware. I'm pretty well educated: formally, streetwise, outdoors, urban, what have you; being competent doesn't equate to being an egotist, and the US as a nation has multiple competencies, get over it.

Third, we are vastly larger, more diverse, and more complex than you can imagine if you haven't travelled through the country. All of Europe would fit handily into any number of our states, so please don't generalize about us, it just shows your ignorance of our culture.

Fourth, it is usually considered condescending and demeaning to talk to people in the manner you did: if we were face to face, I'm sure you would have better manners.

The "problem with Americans today" is not that we're arrogant egotists, it is that we've been far too patient with politicallly elite criminals. It is a mass and inertia problem. In a society of over 350 million people, political critical mass is difficult to achieve and dangerous when you do. So most Americans strive to make their immediate localities better and let those at the top have fun knifing each other; in the long run it worked ok. Not perfect, not necessarily good, but ok.

Unfortunately, we're kind of beyond that now and things must change. Despite what others may think of us, the average citizen of the US is a fairly pragmatic person and is nowhere near as violent as perceived. We're fairly slow to decide on a course of action, but once something sensible turns up, it is usually implemented swiftly. Right now, however, the danger is that something appealling but harmful will gain favor first.

But thanks for your input. Perhaps tomorrow I might tell you what's wrong with the Brits (I mean besides the fact they can't cook or make decent coffee sorry, couldn't resist).

edit: spelling, grammar

[edit on 11-4-2009 by apacheman]

i agree with the OP

Far too many americans go touting that they know "what is best" and they know "what the constitution stands for"

but when someone treads on "what they know" they do nothing about it but come to forums and complain.

I know i'm one of these people, but i do so more out of inability to care.
I gave up caring about things i can't change a long time ago.

If i see something i think i can change (someone's opinion for example) then i go after it.

But government is going to do what they want and when they want, because the American general public is too feeble to stop them from doing otherwise....despite all the "intellectuals" that claim to reside here.

Nothing worse than a bloody jealous wanker coming on this web site and trying to take America's inventory. When in reality he should be taking his own. I suggest before trying to fix our system you should have closer look at yours. However I will take into consideration your suggestions, but in the future I suggest if you want to help, you don't start off by insulting us.

[edit on 13-4-2009 by drummerroy39]

FYI The tea party on the 15th is our start, and if we need to escalate from there, we will take the appropriate steps.

reply to post by redhatty


Here is the problem with your rebuttle.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

(The laws of the constitution may not be written to take rights from the people)

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

(Any power not specifically given to the federal government BY THE CONSTITUTION is the power of the states and peoples (common law) ALONE)


So, the government is not allowed to legislate anything not granted to it, and power CAN NOT be given to the government to take away rights.


-Edrick