Hi all,

The legality of carrying knives in public is something i get really confused about, so i've come for a little clarification. Yes i know this will all go out of the window WTSHTF, but until then i don't need my daughters seeing Daddy getting lifted every time i'm out with a knife!

So, quick rundown of my uses. I take a couple of knives to the woods for me and the kids if we wre doing bushcraft stuff. These are Frost Moras.

I think they are a bit over the legal limit though, in that they are a fixed blade and also slightly longer then the 3in allowed.

So i was looking for a folding small bladed knife which does not lock. This would be for in the woods and as a general utility knife kept on my every day.

Any recommendations? Is it even worth it?

I swear our laws here are so crap! I hate teaching my kids with a folding knife s they can fold onto thier fingers.

What do you UK members here carry on a typical day, or typical jaunt through the woods?

Heres our laws for anyone that is unsure.....am i reading it correctly that i can cry a 3in folding non-lockable knife anytime? Or does there have to be a reason for that too?

Carrying Knives in Public

[The CJA 1988 mainly relates to carrying knives in public places, Section 139 being the most important.

"It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches." [CJA 1988 section 139(1)]

The phrase "good reason" is intended to allow for "common sense" possession of knives, so that it is legal to carry a knife if there is a bona fide reason to do so. Examples of bona fide reasons which have been accepted include: a knife required for ones trade (e.g. a chefs knife), as part of a national costume (e.g. a sgian dubh), or for religious reasons (e.g. a Sikh Kirpan).

In this case, public place is meant as anywhere accessible to the public, so for example a private campsite, which members of the public must book to use, is a public place. Also, knives should only be carried to and from and used at the location where they are needed. For example, leaving a knife in a car for use when you go fishing would be illegal. It should be taken back into the house each time you use the car (other than to go fishing). [1]

The special exception which exists in the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (s139) for folding knives (pocket knives) is another "common sense" measure accepting that some small knives are carried for general utility however even a folding pocket knife of less than 3" (76mm) may still be considered an offensive weapon if carried or used for that purpose. It was a long held common belief that a folding knife must be non-locking for this provision to apply.

A Crown Court case (Harris v DPP), ruled (case law). A lock knife for all legal purposes, is the same as a fixed blade knife. A folding pocket knife must be readily foldable at all times. If it has a mechanism that prevents folding, it's a lock knife (or for legal purposes, a fixed blade) The Court of Appeal (REGINA - v - DESMOND GARCIA DEEGAN 1998) upheld the Harris ruling stating that "folding was held to mean non-locking". No leave to appeal was granted.

Age Restriction:

British law also covers age restriction on the sale of knives in the Criminal Justice Act 1998:

"It is an offence for any person to sell to a person under the age of 18 any knife, knife blade, razor blade, axe or any other article which has a blade or is sharply pointed and which is made or adapted for causing injury to the person." [CJA 1988 section 141A]

British courts have in the past taken the marketing of a particular brand of knife into account when considering whether an otherwise legal folding knife was carried as an offensive weapon. A knife which is marketed as "tactical", "military", "special ops", etc could therefore carry an extra liability. The Knives Act 1997 now restricts the marketing of knives as offensive weapons and thus it is much more unlikely that such marketing could be used as evidence against a defendant.

In practice, this law makes it highly unlikely that most shops would sell a knife to someone younger than 18.

Illegal Knives:

In the UK, the main knife legislation is found in the Criminal Justice Act (CJA) 1988 however certain types of knife are banned under the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act (ROWA) 1959, the relevant section of the latter being Section 1.

"It is an offence for a person to manufacture, sell, hire or offer for sale or hire or expose or have in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire, or lend or give to any person:

A) any knife which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife, sometimes know as a "flick knife" or "flick gun"; or
B) any knife which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force and which, when released, is locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other device, sometimes known as a "gravity knife". "
[ROWA 1959 S 1(1)]

Section 1(2) also makes it illegal to import knives of this type, as a result it is (almost) impossible to obtain possession of such a knife without either committing or abetting an offence. Note that the above legislation does not refer to possession of such knives other than possession for the purpose of sale or hire, it is therefore not illegal per se to merely possess such a knife.

This law is aimed primarily at knives designed with features specific to fighting/assault rather than use as a tool.

Burden of Proof:

Although English law insists that it is the responsibility of the prosecution to provide evidence proving a crime has been committed an individual must provide evidence to prove that they had a bona fide reason for carrying a knife (if this is the case). Whilst this may appear to be a reversal of the usual burden of proof, technically the prosecution has already proven the case (prima facie) by establishing that a knife was being carried in a public place
/ex]

Thanks for any replies on this one.

CX.

I EDC a small Gerber Multitool in my pocket and a larger multitool in my GHB 2.75" blade, non locking.

Before loads of people moan about our laws the easiest way to stay legal is:

Public place you are allowed to carry a NON locking pen knife with a 3" max blade. If you carry one of these and get nicked then plod has to prove your intent.

If you carry a lock knife (regardless of blade length) then this is classed as a fixed blade and unless you have just cause you will be nicked. This time YOU have to prove you have just cause.

Rgds

Wow. You guys have some screwed up laws. I am so glad i don't live there. Here i can walk around with my rifle, my pistol, and or my Ka-bar with no legal repercussions.

Hi CX

I think the point to remember with this is the 'good reason' inclusion.

I carry a 3 inch locking folder,which is part of a torch/firesteel combi.
My 'good reason' being it is part of a toolkit used constantly for work.
It's 'always in use' because you don't know when an emergency would require its use...Be prepared etc...

In my BOB is a 4inch fixed Jack Pike,which would be used for carving/fishing/small jobs.

I don't worry about taking these,as any SENSIBLE 'person in authority' would recognise a genuine reason and a sensible approach to storage in a hiking/biking/outdoor situation.

I think where this new law comes into effect is the carrying of even identical items like mine by anyone just for the sake of it...
Ie going shopping,to the bank,garage etc...where there is no reason to have it.

Your reason for going to the woods to teach woodcraft should be perfectly acceptable..in which case any size should be fine.

Flick knives/butterfly knives etc are always a no-no

Don't go for a non locking folder though..you can guarantee it will fold on you during use and nip a bit of finger off..they're totally unsuitable..

You could also point this out to any cop etc. who would question why you're carrying a larger fixed item.
If you keep with you any items of 'whittling/woodcraft/carving' then that should cover the 'burden of proof' required.

Pathetic isn't it??



All this hassle to stop a few pathetic dumbass skinny hoody 'gangstas' stabbing each other.
Let them get on with it..Just bleed somewhere hygenic I say.

Originally posted by Dark Vengeance
I EDC a small Gerber Multitool in my pocket and a larger multitool in my GHB 2.75" blade, non locking.

Rgds

EDC?

Translation please.

Originally posted by Desert Dawg

Originally posted by Dark Vengeance
I EDC a small Gerber Multitool in my pocket and a larger multitool in my GHB 2.75" blade, non locking.

Rgds

EDC?

Translation please.

Every Day Carry.

So many kids are killing each other with knives that's easy to see why the laws are so tight. However, I carry a Swiss army knife in my car and in the house I have a highly illegal Italian stiletto eight inch flick knife, just in case someone makes the mistake of breaking into my home while I'm there!

Well the crazy thing is that to actually carry a knife at my workplace (on the rigs) a folding knife must be a lock knife, as to work with one, a knife that doesn't lock is considered dangerous! Rightly so too!
So I carry a lock knife, as I'm on call-out pretty much during the week I have my excuse ready
Eat that one PC police

In the BOB there's a kukri, but of course that sword machete doesn't get carried about unless TSHTF!

Ah, so many views, all correct. My EDC is a Gerber multi-tool and like Watchrider, the Khukri stays in the BOB.

I have to say though that no good has come from restrictive laws. "Understandable reasons" is an excuse for "draconian measures".

The law, evidently, is an Equus africanus asinus.

I carry a multi tool with a 3 inch locking blade, the cops are not interested, I also usually carry a 3 or 4 inch lock knife and have done for over 45 years. The cops are looking for chavs, Scallies, Druggies, Scum and other lower forms of life. While they hunt black kids with gusto for carrying knives they ignore Sikhs who HAVE to carry knives for their religion.
If you want to stay legal get a Spyderco UK Folder, its the best of the non locking UK legal knives. Personally I am more afraid of scum than I am of the police, who have failed to protect my family on at least 3 occasions.

Now if you are sensible and serious about survivalism you will relocate well away from the large cities and towns, one added bonus of getting out of the firing lines is that there are few cops to go around in the boonies. In fact in our village we have not seen a cop on foot in over 3 1/2 years. Go to London and they are everywhere yet on average 300 kids a year still get killed and over 90,000 people get robbed with violence.

Originally posted by Nirgal
Ah, so many views, all correct. My EDC is a Gerber multi-tool and like Watchrider, the Khukri stays in the BOB.

I have to say though that no good has come from restrictive laws. "Understandable reasons" is an excuse for "draconian measures".

The law, evidently, is an Equus africanus asinus.

Its a matter of personal choices, carry a knife or not, I carry one not as a weapon but as a tool, but carrying a knife carrys a responsibility. If you go into the pub in the city centre on Saturday lunch time you with a bunch of rowdy mates you will attract attention, if you go clubbing wuiith the chavs on a saturday night you will attract attention. If you walk round dressed like Essex Boy in a tracksuit or Hoody wif a bunch of mates hanging round the shops you are definately going to attract attention.
BUT the smartly dressed young travellor or businessman, the Rambler and his chums having a few pints in a rural pub. Getting pissed at a BBQ in the woods etc the cops dont want to know you.
Also if you are a survivalist then you should not be using public transport like buses or trains which are bottleneck for police hunting victims to make their arrest quotas.

Originally posted by Anuubis

Originally posted by Desert Dawg

Originally posted by Dark Vengeance
I EDC a small Gerber Multitool in my pocket and a larger multitool in my GHB 2.75" blade, non locking.

Rgds

EDC?

Translation please.

Thank you very much.


My everyday carry alternates between a 3" blade, Buck three blade Stockman folding pocket knife, and a lightweight Gerber 3" single folding blade pocketknife with somewhat deep and thin blade.

The Buck stays sharp fairly well and a little more work to sharpen, but it all evens out.

Gerber sharpens fairly quickly, a little more of a carbon blade than the Buck.

On occasion, when we're exploring the desert and looking for turquoise I have a 4" folding single blade Schrade in a leather belt pouch.

I used to carry a Buck fixed blade fisherman knife in a sheath when we fished for trout.

Salt water fishing, one of the pocket knives and I also had a couple of good fillet knives in a leather sheath that hung from the bottom edge of the cabin windows on my sailboat.


Don't get me started on the kitchen knives . . .Sweetie never realized that a good knife makes working in the kitchen a pleasure.

I keep em well sharpened and several of her friends have been impressed.

Ladies, learn to sharpen your own knives . . . not saying you can't or won't, but if you wait for them to be sharpened, well....

[edit on 24/3/2009 by Desert Dawg]

May I ask what the fine or what ever is if found with an illegal blade??
That is kinda screwed up..Can swords be used as exhibition in public?say at a parade or what ever?

Not sure about swords in public displays. I guess you would need permission.

Just incase anyones interested, i did actualy ask at my local police station a while ago about having a knife in the woods. I explained that at the weekends i take my young girls trekking through the forest, and we often end up doing something "bushcrafty".

I said that a knife was something that was much needed for these activities, so would i be ok carrying one?

The officer said (and i have had the same response from a few officers on this subject), it all comes down to the officer that deals with you having a knife and the situation in what it is used in. Most officers would probably see that it's just a typical family activity and be fine with it.

I was told that your average officer would be fine with someone being sensible with a blade, then again if you start arsing about with it after a couple of pints down the pub, then thats your look out.

However if a member of the public was to drive past and see a guy with a knife in the woods, and he has two small girls with him......who knows what could that mean?

They said if that was reported, you would most likely see an armed response team on your backside pretty quick. The reasons why you have the knife would have to be explained in court.

Sigh.....

I can see their point, so i am very wary about what i take out with me now. I wouldn't want my kids to see their dad being lifted for having a knife that he wasn't supposed to be carrying.

It's total crap though!!! I was born in the forest, as a kid i have played in the forest and have used a knife ever since i was old enough to use one.

As an adult, whether in the forces, or as a civvy, i've come to think of a knife as another bodypart.....you just always have a blade around for various uses.

I've never done anything illegal with one, and have always taught my kids safety and respect when it comes to knives.

So why is it me that gets banned?!!!

Sorry.....rant over.

I travel to Leeds a fair bit, and i know they are hammering the knife possession thing pretty big. Last time i was there, i saw the police unveiling their big x-ray scanner at the train station.

It's a shame that a few idiots spoil it for the rest.

Not sure how many idiots are on the streets or in goverment though?

CX.

Originally posted by CX
It's a shame that a few idiots spoil it for the rest.

Not sure how many idiots are on the streets or in goverment though?

CX.

I suspect about 60% on the streets and 95% in government/quangos.

I'm probably being overgenerous though...

Originally posted by CX
So why is it me that gets banned?!!!

This is the reality of all bans. The intended targets of the ban (criminals) are never affected. They barely notice another law on the books if at all.

Only the law-abiding are affected by bans.

What's a new law if you aren't paying attention to the law in the first place?

It isn't a difficult concept to understand yet politicians seem incapable of grasping this. Well, either incapable or they just don't care about the problem in the first place and only use fear-based legislation to ensure votes, money and power.

Originally posted by Anuubis
Wow. You guys have some screwed up laws. I am so glad i don't live there. Here i can walk around with my rifle, my pistol, and or my Ka-bar with no legal repercussions.

That's what I was thinking. Hell, they can sell swords in every podunk flea market around here. Of course those would be hard to carry.