Why Doesn't the US Declare War against US Gangs?

Originally posted by Aeons
reply to post by Plasma applicator

 

I agree.

Use economics and increased consequences to drive the market down.

HOWEVER - I am also all good with taking the leaders of any gangs that take over an area and try them as traitors. When thugs and gangsters step out of their assigned place - to quietly supply contraband and a societal valve - and replace the rightful democratically elected government of the land in any region they have made themselves traitors.

The power of economics only goes so far. There is a boundary point that they cross, and when they do they need to be vividly reminded that they have a place in society and it isn't as a governing power.

On some fronts that gangs/thugs/mob work on, I'm also for using more than economics. In the spirit of my previous post where you get rid of demand you get rid of the market......I'm ALL FOR getting rid of the child prostitution/slavery/porn people through killing everyone who is found to be a consumer or producer. Consider it the economics of demand-side reduction.


[edit on 2009/3/14 by Aeons]

This talk of going after the users is ludicrous...

Do YOU know how many customers fall underneath 1 big cheese, distributor???

You would have to expand law enforcement, justice department and corrections 100 fold at least.

BTW there are many leaders in gangs - take one out three will fall in for the spot.

The prison thing being used right now for gangs/mob is totally retarded.

I suggest a nice outdoor camp on an island in the North West Territories of Canada. To ridiculous for even the hardiest of loyals to snow mobile into. Big fence, lots of land. You escape, you probably die. Cold, polar bears. Polar bears are great - they see a tent and think "yum....nice nuggety center." Probably best not to escape.

No cell phones. No visitors. No running a gang. On the upside, you are too damn cold to try and run a local gang for protection.

[edit on 2009/3/14 by Aeons]

Nail consumers, you take out the entire trade.

That simple.

You don't like going after consumers? (because of course, you have no personal motives to not want that I'm sure)

You could always release some plant virus, bacteria or gene that makes the drugs essentially very dangerous. Only a couple of thousand people would become sick or die before the trade would see a serious reducton in consumption. Or a plant gene seeded into every available field, that turns off the active component. Wouldn't that be something....HEY my coc aine doesn't make me feel like a paranoid god!

Ye'Old poison in the coke can hysteria. Works pretty good.

[edit on 2009/3/14 by Aeons]

Originally posted by jam321
reply to post by mental modulator

 

as always, I welcome your very well thought out points.

I think your option of legalizing is the best option but will never happen.

Kinda sad when I can get certain cold medicines easier on the street than from a drugstore.

Yes it is -

I also think the border needs to be completely secured, by eliminating automobile and foot traffic... A lot of the hard stuff is Walked/ Hiked over in TJ, Mexicali.

Although Mexico does have a sweet Pharmacy system - when I am without Insurance and sick as a dog I can go "heal" myself... Instead of going to a doctor spending X to tell me I need Z - I can go buy Z ( usually Cipro 1gm) - its actually very "libertarian"
as opposed to here. ( but that is a different thread )

[edit on 14-3-2009 by mental modulator]

[edit on 14-3-2009 by mental modulator]

Originally posted by Aeons
Nail consumers, you take out the entire trade.

That simple.

You don't like going after consumers? (because of course, you have no personal motives to not want that I'm sure)

You could always release some plant virus, bacteria or gene that makes the drugs essentially very dangerous. Only a couple of thousand people would become sick or die before the trade would see a serious reduction in consumption. Or a plant gene seeded into every available field, that turns off the active component. Wouldn't that be something....HEY my coc aine doesn't make me feel like a paranoid god!

Ye'Old poison in the coke can hysteria. Works pretty good.

[edit on 2009/3/14 by Aeons]

Are you aware of how many people that is???

And what is with the snide remark in regards to my motives, are you calling me a junky or something?

I want to know, where will you get the funding for the exponential increase in police,judicial and corrections to go after the users?

Please answer me that...

If the US wanted to police the gangs spread across the country they would need to do so militarily like Mexico is doing in its southern borders with South American border gangs. I want to stress that we need to look to other options since our Spartan dumb ass mentality has only put the world in a greater state of disorder. Not to mention we cant afford it anymore (never really could) and we should look to clean up our corrupt government before we crack down on the people anymore. We need a frikin break. I don’t care if Pablo or Shawn or Jamal sells a damn dime bag to buy diapers. I'm more concerned with the Dick Cheyneys of the world. The US is the largest distributor of fire arms in the world. Our CIA has set up whole drug cartels. We wage war with dictators we empower when they go soft on us. ect ect ect . The US government is the biggest gang I know of messing up my life right now. Not the Bloods or the Crypts.

jam321,

Your very brave to post that. Congratulations.

Yes, its amazing how the biggest drug consumer market in the world dont declare war to the druglords in the U.S.A.

Yes, we, the common Mexican, Dont hate Gringos, but we are hoping that The American Goverment, do their own homework fighting the Druglords Maffia in The U.S.A.

and help with this Cancer thats Killing Many People Both sides of the border. Its Not just a Mexican Problem.

reply to post by Aeons


Aeons
You have to make the consequences of being a consumer too large to be worth it. That drives down the demand, and increases supply, which drives people OUT of the supply side.

I agree with the theory. I also take into consideration we are spending an enormous amount of money on prisons and our prisons are at close to two hundred percent capacity. We are letting out sex offenders to make room for drug users. So while it sounds good there is just not enough room for all the drug users and minor dealers. Some time I think It just might be easer to flood the market and drive the price to nothing.

Aeons


On some fronts that gangs/thugs/mob work on, I'm also for using more than economics. In the spirit of my previous post where you get rid of demand you get rid of the market......I'm ALL FOR getting rid of the child prostitution/slavery/porn people through killing everyone who is found to be a consumer or producer. Consider it the economics of demand-side reduction.

I’m all for it, that would definitely make room, but the pesky Aclu would have a fit.



[edit on 14-3-2009 by Plasma applicator]

reply to post by jam321


Jam321
Very true. But what good does it do to get a few here and a few there and then send them to prison so they can continue to operate their gangs. I also have to wonder because of what I have been reading lately, is if many of these arrests have more to do with seizures than shutting down the illegal activity.

That’s kind of my point , prison isn’t the end all for some people.
Also prison is a very secure lock up facility with razor fences, high walls, and xray machines, they can keep people in but they can’t keep drugs out. So what chance does a country with a porous border have?

Its all about the money,

Amsterdam has successfully made pot boring and drug use childish. They did it by embracing the fact that it isn’t the crux of social problems but rather a result. They treat drug users like patients instead of criminals. This approach gets treatment to those that would recover as well as prevents meaningful exposure to those that might be inclined to use them. People smoke pot in Amsterdam as well as other things sure, but most of them are tourists.

Allot of the worlds drug markets would crash if the US stopped using. Maybe they would pop up again, but maybe not. Maybe not for the same reasons that might make them crash, but if given the opportunity to go "Cold Turkey" the world could get more sober and stay that way for a lasting while.

Imagine if for 12 months the US consumed no drugs. If our problems causing drug use and proliferation were solved, what effect would it have on the world drug scene? I don’t imagine that our habits dictate world reaction but our drug habit here is of cosmic proportions. Would Cocane then only really be used in Colombian cousine? lol

The reason you cannot simply "Declare War" upon Street Gangs, has to do with the fact that first and foremost Many of them happen to be composed of American Citizens. American Citizens are afforded Full Civil Rights under our Laws.

Second, just because someone belongs to a "Gang", it does not necessarily mean that they in fact Deal Drugs, partake in Drive-by Shootings, or Commence in any number of nefarious activities.

You have many different levels of gang involvement, and the majority of members are not the Jackers, Murderers, and Slangers. You have plenty of gang members who are in it for no reason other than camaraderie, and protection.

You also have a considerate number of gang members who eventually mature and leave any and all involvement behind.


So basically, you can enforce the basic laws by preventing and charging for crimes that have been committed, but if you suddenly prosecute gang membership in of itself as a Criminal Offense, you are walking a VERY slippery slope. All that anyone would need to do at that point, is to declare an unfavorable grouping of individuals to be a "Gang", and they would thus become complete Law Enforcement Targets.


Now on the other hand, the Government SHOULD go after all of the Illegal Immigrants within gangs, and if they look no further than the Hispanic/Mexican Gangs, they will find them. Many of the Hispanic gangs have a Majority Membership consisting of Non-Citizens, and Illegal Immigrants; Both categories of individuals CAN and SHOULD be Arrested, Prosecuted, and Deported.

Other than that, the only thing that will help is to have the Border FINALLY secured, and shutdown, so as to create a drought in both the Drug Flow, and the rate at which Deportees re-enter the United States.

Originally posted by mental modulator


I can say that completely legalizing Marijuana would set back the Mexican connections tens of years, which would in turn ruin many street gangs financing over night.

The minute you legalize any such product, the retailers and shops will soon find themselves paying "Protection Money". The Organized Groups will always make bank.

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen

Originally posted by mental modulator


I can say that completely legalizing Marijuana would set back the Mexican connections tens of years, which would in turn ruin many street gangs financing over night.

The minute you legalize any such product, the retailers and shops will soon find themselves paying "Protection Money". The Organized Groups will always make bank.

Ok

but I have yet to hear of a 7-11/circle K paying protection money for selling booze...

How is this different?

The gangster will step up other operations - but none of which have such a high demand as Marijuana as it was the #1 source of $$$$$...Take it from one of those who grew out of it

reply to post by TheAgentNineteen
You may be on to something there. I have first hand experience with living with American gangs and MS-13 running rampant all over the place. There is a difference. My dad used to set some of the American drug thugs straight from time to time when they got out of hand on our street. They knew he was veteran and could be a mean SOB and they always said hello and often called him "sir." Some of them had family in the military themselves. The common bond of being fellow Americans had some small meaning, evidently. At least in our neighborhood it did. Of course, you still had to dodge the stray bullets, but at least it was possible to live amongst them and not be targeted personally. They'd as soon leave ordinary citizens alone and shoot at each other. Just duck and don't stand near the windows and you'd live. I post that tongue in cheek but there is truth to it.

With MS-13, which has moved in and taken over in areas where the American gangs quieted down, it's a different ballgame. No, you can't walk safely down the street once they move in. I had to move out of my last neighborhood because I safely walked past a gun wielding black drug thug yelling into his cellphone only to have to walk past a gauntlet of MS-13. I think the only reason I got past the MS-13 alive was I had one mean-ass looking dog with me. Plus I was clearly not carrying anything of value on me. Not quite worth the bother, but they were thinking about it just for the hell of it--it's fun to them. They had some (nasty looking) women with them and that may also have played into their giving me a pass. I guess I'll never know for sure. All I know that's one day I'll never forget!

My "fellow American" street thug never gave me a second glance that day but those MS-13 guys looked like they were itching for trouble. And this was a "nice" neighborhood, which unfortunately made the mistake of welcoming illegal immigration with open arms. I have met and developed a fondness for some hard-working family-type illegals but unfortunately once you let them in out of the compassion and goodness of your heart, the gangsters will follow. With no bonds or ties to this country and no common history, the detachment and casual cruelty is magnified in these gang members. I have tremendous empathy for the suffering the peaceful illegals are trying to flee, but no doubt about it, we have to control immigration and it has to be LEGAL. Or you will get chaos just like they've got over in Mexico. It's actually already here. Seen it, bought the t-shirt.
'

This is all just conjecture on my part. I'm no social scientist. I'm just some poor fool who has the flu and is waiting for the meds to kick in so I can go back to sleep.

Why Doesn't the US Declare War against US Gangs?

Well Jam321, you have to ask some serious questions here.
1.How much money does the prison system make private corporations every year?
2.How does the war on drugs aid in this profit?
3.How do gangs increase this profit?
Three simple questions.
Of which when you look at the answers, you see alarming statistics that even the most staunch Government supporter, has to lie to themselves.
Just to convince themselves, its not true.
Gangs make money, for private corporations.
Private corporations pay, money, to politicians, so they make laws, to continue there profits.
That is your answer.

Originally posted by Aeons
The prison thing being used right now for gangs/mob is totally retarded.

I suggest a nice outdoor camp on an island in the North West Territories of Canada. To ridiculous for even the hardiest of loyals to snow mobile into. Big fence, lots of land. You escape, you probably die. Cold, polar bears. Polar bears are great - they see a tent and think "yum....nice nuggety center." Probably best not to escape.

No cell phones. No visitors. No running a gang. On the upside, you are too damn cold to try and run a local gang for protection.

[edit on 2009/3/14 by Aeons]

air drop asault rilfes, plenty of ammo, drugs and groupies.
Last one standing gets presidential pardon.

wait...strike that.

parachute in one elite sniper team on the other side of the island and put an Indian Casino in the heart of the island.

install the pallets of missing 100 dollar bills around the casino and every jackpot is a free ride off the island and add a contestant slot for those get off the island for dancing with the stars

Originally posted by SheepleFlavored
reply to post by TheAgentNineteen

 

You may be on to something there. I have first hand experience with living with American gangs and MS-13 running rampant all over the place. There is a difference. My dad used to set some of the American drug thugs straight from time to time when they got out of hand on our street. They knew he was veteran and could be a mean SOB and they always said hello and often called him "sir." Some of them had family in the military themselves. The common bond of being fellow Americans had some small meaning, evidently. At least in our neighborhood it did. Of course, you still had to dodge the stray bullets, but at least it was possible to live amongst them and not be targeted personally. They'd as soon leave ordinary citizens alone and shoot at each other. Just duck and don't stand near the windows and you'd live. I post that tongue in cheek but there is truth to it.

With MS-13, which has moved in and taken over in areas where the American gangs quieted down, it's a different ballgame. No, you can't walk safely down the street once they move in. I had to move out of my last neighborhood because I safely walked past a gun wielding black drug thug yelling into his cellphone only to have to walk past a gauntlet of MS-13. I think the only reason I got past the MS-13 alive was I had one mean-ass looking dog with me. Plus I was clearly not carrying anything of value on me. Not quite worth the bother, but they were thinking about it just for the hell of it--it's fun to them. They had some (nasty looking) women with them and that may also have played into their giving me a pass. I guess I'll never know for sure. All I know that's one day I'll never forget!

My "fellow American" street thug never gave me a second glance that day but those MS-13 guys looked like they were itching for trouble. And this was a "nice" neighborhood, which unfortunately made the mistake of welcoming illegal immigration with open arms. I have met and developed a fondness for some hard-working family-type illegals but unfortunately once you let them in out of the compassion and goodness of your heart, the gangsters will follow. With no bonds or ties to this country and no common history, the detachment and casual cruelty is magnified in these gang members. I have tremendous empathy for the suffering the peaceful illegals are trying to flee, but no doubt about it, we have to control immigration and it has to be LEGAL. Or you will get chaos just like they've got over in Mexico. It's actually already here. Seen it, bought the t-shirt.

'

This is all just conjecture on my part. I'm no social scientist. I'm just some poor fool who has the flu and is waiting for the meds to kick in so I can go back to sleep.

The gang banger mentality is not much different from a pack of dogs...
In fact a single gangbanger is like a solo dog in that they feed off of fear and they respect strength/brutality. If your head is not up and your shoulders back, your screwed.

I remember getting "court" by the pee wees - I was like 13. Court is getting your butt kicked for messing up in some way. Anyhow there is no discussion, it just happens and then they go back to being friendly. I also remember two really good friends beating the hell out of eachother in my front yard - the funny thing is, I could tell they both did not want to fight, however, if they did not fight there was a slight chance that both could be viewed as soft. Even though they did not want 2, they fought for about four minutes, until they were both bloody and going in slow motion.

I can only liken it to some sort of ancient warrior culture, I mean the things I saw took some real guts and self discipline in a weird way.

I had my life saved twice by gangbangers - once I had three guys come at me with broken bottles, I "ratted" one of them out inadvertently and a guy from the neighborhood got between me and the guys who wanted me dead.
The other time a rolling 60's crip (school mate) got between me and a gun, then demanded that the guy wanting to shot me apologize. Herman, (crip friend ) must have been 5'3 110 -115 max - but he seemed to have an urge to protect me ( 6'+ 215 ) based on the notion that I was his friend. I mean, I don't know if you have ever had someone (a criminal at that) step in front of a gun for you, but it takes something that is rare in everyday life.

Strangely enough there is a very strong sense of duty, community and honor in some of these guys.

I don't know what my point is, all I know is that you join up or get messed up by EVERYBODY your age. I had to walk thru 7 neighborhoods to get home and if I did not know who I knew, I would likely be dead...

Anyhow I haven't thought about this stuff in years, the duality that is there is rather heavy - in some cases like Chuck Norris and Charlie Manson in one body.

BTW I am not condoning any of this - its just really screwed in so many ways

The law is black and white - but the motives and circumstances are not in my experience.

[edit on 14-3-2009 by mental modulator]

Well, in general, gangs typically do a good job of killing each other. They will be targetted by law enforcement when they prey on civillians. Groups are easy to monitor - a lot easier than individuals. Seems it works out to be a good method to take the very violent off the streets. Letting them get away with petty crimes and drug distribution is worth it for the intel gathered. When they start murdering and moving into large scale drug trafficing, it is a lot easier to do their take downs because they have excellent intel and the right evidence for their conviction. Usually, as long as a gang member stays inside certain boundaries, they will be ok. Once they try to move up into higher returns, then the risk of death and incarceration goes up - depending on your ability to play the politcs of the game. Violent tendencies have a habit of apperaing early on in a criminal career, and of course, it is those that are targetted for removal.

First time I've made a post here on ATS, I felt this needed to be said:

What would be done with all these gang members once war is declared on them? Do you realize how many gang members there actually are in the USA? If they all joined forces under a common threat: the Government, you'd easily and very quickly have a problem much like Mexico.

Where would you put the gang members who've been detained? The US' prisons are already full to capacity, and there are literally millions of gang members in the United States.

Bad idea all around, the real criminals are the politicians who enable these people to flourish in their crime rings due to unjust laws and regulations on the nonviolent and hardworking citizens of the United States.

[edit on 14-3-2009 by Man1fesT]

Because there s no political gain for them to do so. The gang task force is under employed, not enough jail cells and they are too busy out patrolling other countries. Government turned their backs on us. Crime and gangs are gaining strength. The plan may be to let things get sooo bad that martial law is the answer and think the people will welcome it, as a source of protection, rather than procrastination.