Originally posted by mental modulator
THIS is buzzword

at the heart of it are the WEALTHIEST Elites who fear they will lose money and influence...

A great way to transfer this fear is to place it in the realm of pride and AMERICANISM -
boobs who jump at the chance of conflict will FIGHT THE UNAMERICAN SOCIALISTS

I think that's the key to it and I've mentioned this elsewhere on ATS in the past. America, like it or not, has a patriot culture unlike any other in the Western world - which is an observation rather than an outright criticism. Americans are generally raised to be very proud of their country, proud of what that country is meant to represent and an 'American dream'. Being American means so much to so many Americans.

But when an alternative or 'alien' ideology confronts Americans, and this ideology is described by authorities as unAmerican (despite any particular merit it might or might not have), it's then, by very definition wrong or maybe even evil. To consider or follow such an ideology then equates with being unAmerican, which is incredibly jarring if to be American is something that's nurtured from the very beginning.

It's actually a master-stroke in psychological programming.

EDIT TO ADD: I've often wondered whether, because of the way most Americans are raised to see their own country, it's why there's often some strange thinking regarding how the English see our country. I've seen some strange things over the years that make me wonder whether some Americans think we have an almost mediaeval relationship to the Royal family.

[edit on 10-3-2009 by Merriman Weir]

Originally posted by ANOK
What socialists mean by 'private ownership' is the private ownership of the 'means of production', land, machinery, factories etc. It does not mean your personal property.

If you cannot own land then you cannot own a house.

If you cannot own a house then you are perpetually at the whim of others.

That is incorrect, a HUGE misconception. Socialism does not require government. Socialism has been historically anti-government and anti-state.

Socialism is an economic system, not a political one, all it requires is the 'means of production' be in the hands of us all and not private entities. No government is required to do this.

Excellent. So you chaps can go and run your cooperatives, and leave us capitalist pigs to run ours alongside yours right? That way there's no need for a red revolution to create a dictatorial socialist state.

I would just love to enter into competition against a socialist company... I would rip it to shreds in the marketplace. Look at the co-op vs tesco... one's socialist, the other is capitalist. The co-op has been around for almost a hundred years and yet its infinitessimally smaller than tesco.

Socialism will never work as well as capitalism. We'll all be equal, but equally poor.

Socialism will never work on a de-centralised stage. Without a dictatorial government to control and command the market, individual socialist cooperatives would be torn asunder by capitalist entities.

SAocialists do not want to take away private property.

Essential industries should either be socialized or regulated in such a manner to eliminate explotation for profit or other gains. Water, basic food staples, roads, education, health care, energy, basic telecom, etc. If you need to have it, steps need to be taken to ensure that you are not being gouged only for the sake of increased profits. That doesn't mean that you aren't free to go out into the market and pay for your own services. However, once a system like this is instituted, nobody ever chooses to go to the profit gouging market.

So many replies, so much ignorance to deny...

First off, the OP is correct; there is a war against personal property rights being waged in the US. It's not new; it has been waged for several decades now. On the front lines are permissible uses of adjacent property to 'maintain property values', Eminent Domain laws which have recently been broadened to the point of being tyrannical, and building codes, especially in the more urban subdivisions. These codes go so far as to state whether or not you can have certain services (such as satellite TV) on your property and how long your garage door can remain open.

Property was established in order to maintain the capitalistic economy. This is not a bad thing. Capitalism may have its faults, but without capitalism there would be none of the modern conveniences we enjoy. Without a profit motive, Bill Gates would not have developed a universal operating system for the Intel microchip. Without a profit motive, Intel would not have developed the microchip. Without a profit motive, Henry Ford would not have created the assembly line for autos and only the very wealthy would have a car today. Without a profit motive, there would be no TV, no telephone (much less cellular phones), no radio, no refrigerators and electric stoves, no pre-packaged food, no restaurants, no cameras, no soft drinks, none of the things we all take for granted.

Humans are inherently lazy. On my days off, I have this terrible urge to lay on my couch watching TV, typing on this keyboard, drinking Mountain Dews, and smoking my cigarettes. I wouldn't hit a lick at a snake if I allowed my natural impulses to control me. A need to make money to buy those things I want (and need) is the motivating factor that makes me get off my lazy gluteous maximux and do something. That means I won't be doing things that do not profit me in some way.

Now before someone mentions charity work, it does profit me to perform it. I profit from the interaction with other people and a good feeling inside that I helped someone. Not everything can have a bar-coded price tag.

I am slowly building my house. Now, would someone please explain to me why I would do that if I had no legal right to keep the land it is built on? Why would I spend years of free time and tons of hard-earned cash to build something that someone else could just walk up and start using in my place? That would be really, really stupid! But I can build my house because I own the land, and I have an assurance that my children will own it after I am gone. Therefore, it is not so stupid to put work and cash into something I have assurance will benefit me.

Even more so, if I wanted to make cars, why would I spend millions and millions of dollars on building a factory and staffing it if someone else could show up at any time and just decide they wanted to use it? The answer is, I wouldn't. Neither would you, neither would anybody else. Humans simply don't work that way. As proof, look at our leaders. They sit and make decisions as to what others will be forced to do (laws) without a care in the world, because these decisions do not affect them.

As I stated earlier, capitalism is not perfect; far from it. But it forms the most perfect basis for an economy we are capable of implementing on a large scale. A touch of socialism is definitely needed IMHO. Socialism is nothing more than forced care for those who are unfortunate enough to not have the advantages capitalism offers. Anyone can be laid off through no fault of their own. Anyone can be stricken with an illness above and beyond their ability to pay. Anyone can be struck by a disaster. It behooves us as a nation to aid those who have experienced less than success to get back on their feet.

The question is not which is best, capitalism or socialism. Rather it is a question of whether we are dissatisfied with the advances made since 1776. If so, we would wish to change to a different economic system. If not, if we believe we have advanced since 1776, it is ludicrous to state that we need a completely different economic system. That would be akin to saying "I didn't get run over today while I stayed on the sidewalk. I like that, so now I'll go and dance in the middle of traffic."

The question then becomes, if we agree that capitalism has advanced our society, on how much socialism is needed. That is a question open to full debate. But to ask whether or not property ownership is a good thing for our country? Nah, sounds like someone who wants more than they have and isn't willing to do what it takes to have what they want. They'd rather just get what they want without having to do anything for it, and the heck with the economy, the country, the society, and anyone else.

Greed. Capitalism works off it, socialism works for it.

TheRedneck

Anok is right on the point, speaking of an ideal socialism, that would be governmentless, id est ANARCHISM. That's not however the problem questionned by the OP.

Still, many countries are running on a partially socialist model, France beeing one of it, and maybe the most efficient, economically as well as socially.

While France and USA partake in many common political parameters, it seems that the idea of the State deeply differs - in theory as well as in facts.

In France, the State is equally perceived by right or leftwing politicians as the first garantee of the people - ie the citizen's - liberty. Also an american could see France as a leftish state, all well considered.

It's now viewed as a basis of french citizenship to :

1 - Get thousand of euros when you have babies
2 - Get half or third of your salary for MONTHES when fired or lose your job for any reason - just need to have worked... 6 monthes !
3 - Can not work at all and get the RMI : Revenu Minimum d'Insertion or Minimal Income for Insertion, which is about 500 euros, so half of the SMIC, this one be the Minimal Wage per Hour, the same for any professional activity, about 1000 euros - per 35h/week - for one month.
4 - Free HealthCare for All (since several yrs) : CMU, Couverture MAladie Universelle, or Universal Disease Cover : anybody has free access to high-tech healthcare (yeah, you read well).
5 - Right of Strike
6 - Powerfull Unions defending the workers rights and interests (but NOT in a lobbyst way, except for the MEDEF, he Unions of... Capitalists Owners)
7. Prudhommes : A Juridical court that deals with workers/boss cases, most of time in benefice of the worker.
8 - Pension : You give money to the State through a tax through your life and get money (like the third of you salary) from your 60's anniversary to the end of your life.


Sounds bad ? Not to me...






[edit on 10-3-2009 by Rigel]

Let's add that France is the 5th economy of the world, the fourth or fivth Army, and one of the very few Space Power of this planet.

.

On the US end, maybe the bigger problem is indeedly the form of the Federal Gov and the hidden forces (Mil-Indus, Pharmas, Chemicals etc) pressuring it. Not anymore a Citizen's Republic in this extent...

The recent secessionist moves on the behalf of many States in the US could maybe lead to some more independant societal experimentations, and the possibilities of developing has many local system that the american people wishes, consciously or not, to experiment... I don't know..

This said about the Fed Gov, on the other end of the political-thinking prism, I still think ( in a maybe Obamanian way... which gives ground to the OP, perhaps...? ) that if a strong move must be done toward a more EQUAL AMERICAN SOCIETY, then a WELL-LEADED GOV REFORM AND A SERIE OF FEDERAL MOVES could quickly lead to some... French-Inspired Policies, that would benefit you all, american citizens.

I mean specially around the Health system, and maybe, who know, many more revolutionary measures... Like developping a green, sustainable, moneymaking hemp+solar+bio industry presented as a whole New Deal...

ANARCHISM is the ultimate goal of every economic and political system, even as a veiled one, if not wildly Not-Conscious...

However, the State CAN lead to such a system, progressively, and PRECISELY through a bigger role played on the most practical segment of the market, ie Health (and/or social rights, garantees and insurances) AND Food.

Food : Throughout all modern nations, the States should launch a GENERIC STATE FOOD BRAND, which would be available at its COST OF PRODUCTION and DISTRIBUTION and free of all taxes excepted a small pluvalue made on the price for the State+Producer can make a minimum money from the deal - but far less than what a private corp would have taken on the same product.

Such a Brand, maybe like those "Blank Brands" you find in big supermarkets (at least in Europe) offering almost the same quality than big "trade-marks", that could finally cover all kind of product from bread to processed food to cars and houses, would boost the economy (and NOT mash it) as such a COMPETITIVE FACTOR would act in a sense of a greater fairness and greater economic (and social for political reasons) efficiency by the privates corporations running against, if not along, such a NATIONAL PRODUCT COMPANY.

And it's rather useless to dig further into the benefits the average US citizen would gain from such a national-runned sub-structural-economy.

Edit :

Keeping in mind that producing all kind of goods under a nation-owned industry would lead to :

1 - the development of a brand-new RIGHTS STANDARD for the working citizen (right of strike, work-insurance etc)
2 - the creation of HUNDERD OF THOUSAND JOBS trhoughout the countries
3 - offer all citizen a cheap access to basic goods, also boosting the economy from within in a synergetic fashion that would benefit the common citizen as well as the national (Statish) as well as federal (us-wide) economy
4 - Give space for Social concertation, permitted by the HUGE INCOMES the STATE WOULD COLLECT from its new cheap production releasing, and the establishment within US, on a federal level, of a real HEALTHCARE & PENSION system that currently cruelly, totally lack in the XXIth century United States...


Revolution, anyone ? ...



[edit on 10-3-2009 by Rigel]

[edit on 10-3-2009 by Rigel]

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
If you cannot own land then you cannot own a house.

If you are using a piece of land and live on it then that land is yours under common land ownership. The only land that you cannot claim a right to is land that is not being used.

Excellent. So you chaps can go and run your cooperatives, and leave us capitalist pigs to run ours alongside yours right? That way there's no need for a red revolution to create a dictatorial socialist state.

There is no such thing as a dictatorial socialism. A dictatorship is not socialist it's totalitarianism. Socialism requires no state.

Yes you can continue to be capitalist if you want, but who would allow themselves to be exploited by you if they don't have to? It's the state set up by the PTB, using their wealth created by exploiting the less fortunate, that allows you to exploit people for personal gain. Without the state we have now no one will be coerced into working for you.

I would just love to enter into competition against a socialist company... I would rip it to shreds in the marketplace. Look at the co-op vs tesco... one's socialist, the other is capitalist. The co-op has been around for almost a hundred years and yet its infinitessimally smaller than tesco.

You only see things as competitive, in a socialist system the emphasis will be on cooperation. You can't compare a coop with a capitalist company. The coop is bound to fail against a capitalist company while operating in a capitalist system. Take away capitalism, and competition, then the coops will function just fine to supply what we need. Socialism is not about making private individuals wealthy, it's about fairly sharing the resources we have with us all.

Socialism will never work as well as capitalism. We'll all be equal, but equally poor.

This is a myth. There are enough resources to feed and house everyone, it's capitalism that keeps these resources artificially scars to keep prices high.

Socialism will never work on a de-centralised stage. Without a dictatorial government to control and command the market, individual socialist cooperatives would be torn asunder by capitalist entities.

And capitalism is working? Take a look at what it has done to Africa, India etc., through the capitalist exploitation of the British Empire. Look at what is going on in the Middle East now, do you really think it's about religion? You admit we are in a dictatorship, I thought socialism was the dictatorship?

Capitalists can only function with our consent. If workers refused to work for you, or use your banks, or fight your wars for economic monopolies, then your capitalism will get you nowhere. You will no longer be able to coerce and exploit people who refuse to be exploited. Instead of making your living off of others labour, you yourself will have to contribute to the society you live in, instead of just taking from it.

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
I don't understand this.

Socialists argue for the abolition of property rights.

Yet I hardly see any socialists being a nonmaterialist themselves.

I think it's an inherent contradiction with their idealism and the reality. They want to take all that private property for themselves.

Didn't you know? Some pigs are more equal than others.

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
If you cannot own land then you cannot own a house.

This is a myth. There are enough resources to feed and house everyone, it's capitalism that keeps these resources artificially scars to keep prices high.

So true.


Dear American Earthling grown up into the Cult of Salvage Capitalism, please have a look to :

Charles Fourier
Joseph Proudhon
Michel Bakounine
Prince Kropotkine
Rosa Luxemburg (assassinated 1919)
Karl Liebknecht (assassinated 1919)
Jacques Ellul
Gilles Deleuze

Yall be amazed !

Originally posted by elfie
We already have a nationalized educational system that is still quite good. Other programs include social security, medicare and medicaid.

This is another classic misconception.

Nationalism is NOT socialism.

Socialism...The workers ownership/control of the means of production and distribution. (yet to happen in ANY country).

Nationalism...The government ownership/control of the...(almost ALL countries have nationalised systems).

Social security, medicare etc., is not socialism. 'Social programs' are a product of capitalism because capitalism requires a poverty class, and what are we to do with that class of people, let them starve? The armchair capitalists probably says yes, because they don't fully understand the system they blindly support.


Edit; BTW this thread is not about the merits of socialism, it was about what socialists mean by 'property', and I answered that question.

[edit on 3/10/2009 by ANOK]

Lets add for good measure :

Thomas More
W.F. Leibniz
Immanuel Kant
Hegel (spiritual side)
Marx of course in his ultimate goals
Victor Hugo (born royalist dead socialist)
Max Stirner
Hannah Arendt
Simone Weil
Jean-Paul Sartre
Michel Foucault

...



... Feel free to complete this faery list of Revolutionary Socio-Anarchists who established all the bases needed for a real, fraternal, equalitarian, but also joyous and festive society, founded upon the idea of the glory of humankind, which means EVERY ONE, and not those of "the-better-the-force-and-skills, the-best-the-gain-&-fortune-to-increase-such-a- (ethically doubtful ?)- dynamic...

Time to read again what Anarchism, Communalism (slightly diff. from theorical communism, and totally from the Bolcheviky one...), and other LEFT-WING LIBERTARIANISM (ie Far-Left Anarchism) truly means and supposes...

Never too late, right ?





[edit on 10-3-2009 by Rigel]