I've never understood atheism

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
From what I see, every accepted translation is waaay off. The translators seem to have been politically motivated. The King James Version seems to be the closest at times, but at other times it is grammatically incorrect or otherwise confusing.

Yes even the most brainwashed quotes such as "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god" or "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us" are something worth uncovering.

With your education, wouldn't you agree that one would more rightly say that "all are at fault and do not compare to the dignity of the creator" or "if we agree concerning our corruption, he is faithful and just to forgive us"?

The motivation wouldn't be political as much as it is babylonian. Based on all that I've learned what parades itself around in this last day blaspheming the creator and his son is nothing more than the same tongue tied crowd that resulted from attempting to build their first tower to his throne.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
The big issue, in my opinion, is that the Church tries hard to convince people that they cannot have God without either the Church or Jesus.

Is it because maybe that their gods are their church(s) (plural mind you) that they have built?

All this when Jesus states plainly that he builds his church.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Those who have tried the Christian thing -- and decided that they don't like it -- convince themselves that because the Church is false, God must also be false. They then proclaim themselves to be "rational" or "humanistic," although their entire life-purpose is based on nothing but false reactionsim.

Wouldn't it be no different if they say they have tried callousing their knees bowing to an onion or chanting to a rock, or banging their head against a wall?

Religion is religion. Bondage, an attempt by lucifer to control his uncontrollable.

This has nothing to do with the creator. He sent his son to set men free not make them slaves to insanity.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Then there are people who insist that humans are a freakish casualty of the Primordial Soup.

That must explain their source of intelligence.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
I've become convinced that atheism is simply a tool of the Illuminati, for those who have been beaten into submission by others falsely proclaiming themselves to be "religious"

If you let that idea control you, then you have also taken their bait.

This notion of illuminati may sell books and make a decent profit for the preachers of it, but the thing is deeper than flesh and blood or some small elite group of people that don't know their heads from a hole in the ground.

Originally posted by WiseSheep

Yes even the most brainwashed quotes such as "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god" or "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us" are something worth uncovering.

With your education, wouldn't you agree that one would more rightly say that "all are at fault and do not compare to the dignity of the creator" or "if we agree concerning our corruption, he is faithful and just to forgive us"?

The motivation wouldn't be political as much as it is babylonian. Based on all that I've learned what parades itself around in this last day blaspheming the creator and his son is nothing more than the same tongue tied crowd that resulted from attempting to build their first tower to his throne.

I happen to agree that we are all sinners, but I disagree with how the Church uses the word "sin" as a blanket indictment that is not worth investigating further. Even the US legal system, with all of its imperfections, require that people dig deeper beyond just superficial labels.

Humans are imperfect, and this fact of life is something that no rational human has been able to escape. We should not be ashamed of our imperfections, however. Instead, we should be encouraged towards self-improvment, or at least to become socially well-adjusted.

Yes, people are going to rebel against any structured institution, especially one that has been as pervasive as the Catholic Church. However, one must be suspicious of other motives as well, like a planned destruction of Catholicism by the very people who created it. Such would be an even more sinister way to play God.

Is it because maybe that their gods are their church(s) (plural mind you) that they have built?

All this when Jesus states plainly that he builds his church.

Well, there is a difference between a "god" and a "Creator." IMHO, they built the Church as a temple to their "Creator," but the names and faces have been changed -- to protect the guilty.

Wouldn't it be no different if they say they have tried callousing their knees bowing to an onion or chanting to a rock, or banging their head against a wall?

Religion is religion. Bondage, an attempt by lucifer to control his uncontrollable.

This has nothing to do with the creator. He sent his son to set men free not make them slaves to insanity.

Some part of me wonders whether religions are being destroyed on purpose, in order to put the New World Order in its place.

There's a really big problem with followers marrying Jesus, while Jesus wasn't even a real person! I understand how a person would need another human for companionship and to "be strong," but followers act as though Jesus were a human being, which is possibly damaging to a person's mind.

That must explain their source of intelligence.

Thing is, they have no explanation for even intelligence, except that it's just a lucky roll of the dice.

If you let that idea control you, then you have also taken their bait.

This notion of illuminati may sell books and make a decent profit for the preachers of it, but the thing is deeper than flesh and blood or some small elite group of people that don't know their heads from a hole in the ground.

Things are being controlled and engineered, that is for sure. What is also for sure is that a Creator exists, and that humans are foolish and vain not to submit themselves to a higher power. For some, that higher power is the Christian God. However, I see Him as having a lot of baggage with which I disagree.

The "Illuminati" is a nickname for a group that seeks to exert control over as much as possible. Part of their plan to accomplish this involves convincing people to deny any higher power, in order to look towards other humans for protection.

The "Illuminati" is a nickname for a group that seeks to exert control over as much as possible. Part of their plan to accomplish this involves convincing people to deny any higher power, in order to look towards other humans for protection.

Opposed to telling people that the pope is the spiritual authority? The catholic church has spent the last millenia not only convincing people but forcing them (under threat of death) into believing they need a human mediator to that "higher power" to look to for protection and leadership.

An atheist could say "do as I say because I know best"
A believer could say "god said to do as I say because I.. er. he knows best"

Both require putting faith into other human beings so whats the difference? You can cry "evil illuminati conspiring to control people" yet the church has been doing exactly that anyway.

[edit on 12-3-2009 by riley]

Originally posted by Gazrok
If the Christian Bible is correct, then the majority of the world's population (as they aren't Christians) are doomed to hell...

BZZZZZT! Wrong.

A careful and thorough study and contemplation of the Bible (Without the interference of your basic religious dogma televangelist-type agenda pushers) will actually reveal just the opposite.

But don't take my word for it.

Originally posted by riley

The "Illuminati" is a nickname for a group that seeks to exert control over as much as possible. Part of their plan to accomplish this involves convincing people to deny any higher power, in order to look towards other humans for protection.

Opposed to telling people that the pope is the spiritual authority? The catholic church has spent the last millenia not only convincing people but forcing them (under threat of death) into believing they need a human mediator to that "higher power" to look to for protection and leadership.

An atheist could say "do as I say because I know best"
A believer could say "god said to do as I say because I.. er. he knows best"

Both require putting faith into other human beings so whats the difference? You can cry "evil illuminati conspiring to control people" yet the church has been doing exactly that anyway.

[edit on 12-3-2009 by riley]

There is a difference between God and the Church.

Which is?

there's a difference between atheists and the illuminati.. you've yet to show us any evidence that they're connected. You are however trying to control people by spreading propoganda on behalf of a belief system so you kind of proved my point; the illuminati claim was just scare mongering.

There may have been a group that were offering protection from the church when they were hunting and charging scientists, intellectuals etc. with heracy. Thats not the same as denying a higher power.

[edit on 13-3-2009 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
Which is?

there's a difference between atheists and the illuminati.. you've yet to show us any evidence that they're connected. You are however trying to control people by spreading propoganda on behalf of a belief system so you kind of proved my point; the illuminati claim was just scare mongering.

There may have been a group that were offering protection from the church when they were hunting and charging scientists, intellectuals etc. with heracy. Thats not the same as denying a higher power.

[edit on 13-3-2009 by riley]

I'm not saying that the Illuminati themselves are atheists, rather that they pragmatically employ atheism to accomplish their agenda. They control social "movements" like the rationalists and the nihilists, while in reality they don't even practice what they preach.

No, there are people who explicitly say that God does not exist.

Some groups offering protection from the Church, in turn, believe that humans can accomplish anything and everything that will ever be possible. That is atheism.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
I'm not saying that the Illuminati themselves are atheists, rather that they pragmatically employ atheism to accomplish their agenda. They control social "movements" like the rationalists and the nihilists, while in reality they don't even practice what they preach.

So you haven't got any proof of this I take it?
I'm an atheist but it had nothing to do with some secret organisation corrupting my thoughts. Only 1-5% apx of the population are atheist.. there's alot more power and willing followers in cults/religion and atheists are notoriously difficult to command so your theory that the illuminati are an atheist organisation is a absurd.

No, there are people who explicitly say that God does not exist.

Whats so wrong with that? there are people who say he does. each to their own.

Some groups offering protection from the Church, in turn, believe that humans can accomplish anything and everything that will ever be possible. That is atheism.

So an open mind is a bad thing now?

Some people say that anything is possible.
Some people say that anything is possible.. if you pray for it.

It's all just sharing human knowledge back and forth.. one just claims it's divine. having a bigger ego doesn't make him more right.

Originally posted by yeahright

Originally posted by Gazrok
If the Christian Bible is correct, then the majority of the world's population (as they aren't Christians) are doomed to hell...

BZZZZZT! Wrong.

A careful and thorough study and contemplation of the Bible (Without the interference of your basic religious dogma televangelist-type agenda pushers) will actually reveal just the opposite.

But don't take my word for it.

Firstly, as a Christian we can toss out the OT (except for moral lessons). Secondly as a Christian you are saved by Christ defeating sin and death through his life and resurrection, and accepting him as your saviour.
Thirdly if you don't accept Christ, you're name isn't in The Book Of Life and you are cast into the lake of fire.

Trust me I wouldn't take your word for it

Re:20:15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So BZZZZT wrong to you.





[edit on 13-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

Originally posted by riley
So you haven't got any proof of this I take it?
I'm an atheist but it had nothing to do with some secret organisation corrupting my thoughts. Only 1-5% apx of the population are atheist.. there's alot more power and willing followers in cults/religion and atheists are notoriously difficult to command so your theory that the illuminati are an atheist organisation is a absurd.

Atheists are not so difficult to command once you push the right buttons, namely by pointing out injustices of the Catholic Church, or perceived injustice on the part of government.

I never said that the Illuminati itself is "an atheist organization"

Whats so wrong with that? there are people who say he does. each to their own.

You are getting defensive. Go back and read what I wrote instead of misquoting me.

So an open mind is a bad thing now?

Some people say that anything is possible.
Some people say that anything is possible.. if you pray for it.

It's all just sharing human knowledge back and forth.. one just claims it's divine. having a bigger ego doesn't make him more right.

An open mind can admit to imperfections (with one's person and with humanity as a whole), which is not how atheists roll. Being "open minded" doesn't guard one from being deceived.

The biggest ego of all is one that assumes that he and his buddies have all of the answers to all of life's questions.

What is our life's purpose?
How did we get here?
What is love?
What is hatred?
What do humans experience envy, jealousy and anger?
Why are humans so much different from other living beings?
Why do we like music so much?
How can a grandma lift a car?
How can an ant lift a leaf?
How were the pyramids built?

Originally posted by B.A.C.


Re:20:15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You'll have to be more specific. I want to make sure I understand what you take to be the significance of that. And why.

Originally posted by yeahright

Originally posted by B.A.C.


Re:20:15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You'll have to be more specific. I want to make sure I understand what you take to be the significance of that. And why.

Sure I'll be happy to show you, although this is my interpretation, some may have a different one. There is no argument though, according to this Book, if your name isn't in the Book of Life you'll face the second death and burn.

These are the examples of what will happen to the 7 churches (all jewish christians and christian sects arose from these 7) in the end times:

Ephesus
Re:2:5: Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

The candlestick is their name in the book of life.

Smyrna
Re:2:11: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

The second death only apples to those who's name's are not in the book of life.

Re:20:6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Pergamos
Re:2:17: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

The new name is in the book of life.

Thyatira
Re:2:23: And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Obviously their names are not in the book of life.

Sardis
Re:3:5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Leaves some of their names in the book of life.

Philedelphia
Re:3:12: Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Their new name is in the book of life.

Laodiceans
Re:3:16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Obviously their name isn't in the book of life.

Again, this is my interpretation. Some (including yourself) may not agree. If you don't I won't say BZZZZZT Wrong.


[edit on 13-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

Okay, let's go back to the original comment from Gazrok that caused my response in this thread (being... "BZZZZZT! Wrong."

If the Christian Bible is correct, then the majority of the world's population (as they aren't Christians) are doomed to hell...

So are you now using the verses from Revelation you're citing as a refutation to my belief that the majority of the world's population is not in fact "doomed to hell"? In other words, the verses you're quoting you believe are evidence that the majority of the world's population is in fact "doomed to hell"?

Originally posted by yeahright
Okay, let's go back to the original comment from Gazrok that caused my response in this thread (being... "BZZZZZT! Wrong."

If the Christian Bible is correct, then the majority of the world's population (as they aren't Christians) are doomed to hell...

So are you now using the verses from Revelation you're citing as a refutation to my belief that the majority of the world's population is not in fact "doomed to hell"? In other words, the verses you're quoting you believe are evidence that the majority of the world's population is in fact "doomed to hell"?

Yes, I believe if they don't believe in Christ as their Savior they are destined for the Lake of Fire. That's what most Christians believe, remember we are talking about Christians.

Read what it say's about each of these churches, the complete verses in Revelation. It talks about what they are doing that shows they have no faith in Christ.

Revelation is the Revealing of Christ. That's what the whole book is about. The very first 5 words in the book is this: The Revelation of Jesus Christ

He's right, if you believe the Christian Bible, you'll burn if you don't accept Christ as your savior.

M't:7:14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The rest will burn.

[edit on 13-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

Oh I understand. I just don't think the Lake of Fire is what you apparently believe it to be. I can't find any scriptural evidence whatsoever that it is designed to be a place of eternal torment and torture for non-Christians. I do however believe I can support a claim that the Lake of Fire is a place which will serve to make even the worst of us worthy. It is symbolic (not a literal, physical lake of fire) as most of Revelation is. And I believe it is symbolic of the purifying spirit of God.

God wills that all be saved.
God's will WILL be done.
God is love.
Love never fails.

Originally posted by yeahright
Oh I understand. I just don't think the Lake of Fire is what you apparently believe it to be. I can't find any scriptural evidence whatsoever that it is designed to be a place of eternal torment and torture for non-Christians. I do however believe I can support a claim that the Lake of Fire is a place which will serve to make even the worst of us worthy. It is symbolic (not a literal, physical lake of fire) as most of Revelation is. And I believe it is symbolic of the purifying spirit of God.

God wills that all be saved.
God's will WILL be done.
God is love.
Love never fails.

I agree it is God's will, but we have Free Will.

Lu:12:47: And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

God is love, but Vengeance is also his.

Ro:12:19: Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

M't:3:12: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

You have an allegorical view, which is not the same view I have, that's all.

[edit on 13-3-2009 by B.A.C.]

Originally posted by B.A.C.
You have an allegorical view, which is not the same view I have, that's all.

I'd say the two views are about as far apart as they could possibly be and still be referring to the same topic. But I've been down this road enough to know the futility of it. I'm fine with leaving it right there.

Originally posted by yeahright

Originally posted by B.A.C.
You have an allegorical view, which is not the same view I have, that's all.

I'd say the two views are about as far apart as they could possibly be and still be referring to the same topic. But I've been down this road enough to know the futility of it. I'm fine with leaving it right there.

I agree completely. I wouldn't try to convert you to my view.

Good convo though

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen

Originally posted by riley
So you haven't got any proof of this I take it?
I'm an atheist but it had nothing to do with some secret organisation corrupting my thoughts. Only 1-5% apx of the population are atheist.. there's alot more power and willing followers in cults/religion and atheists are notoriously difficult to command so your theory that the illuminati are an atheist organisation is a absurd.

Atheists are not so difficult to command once you push the right buttons, namely by pointing out injustices of the Catholic Church, or perceived injustice on the part of government.

the Catholic church has pointed out it's own crimes as they were already visible to all. The pope even apologised himself for for witch burnings and it has paid out millions of dollars to its sex abuse victims. The current pope was also involved in covering up sex abuse cases. The media does not report such things just to control/create atheists if thats what you are saying.

I do not like the catholic church but that is not why I am an atheist.. if it were I could have just switched to a rival denomination or religion like so many others.

I never said that the Illuminati itself is "an atheist organization"

No you said they use atheism to control people by "denying a higher power" and have now suggested atheism/illuminati is somehow to blame for the church having a bad rep?

Whats so wrong about "denying a higher power"? Believing in it has not prevented any holy wars.

An open mind can admit to imperfections (with one's person and with humanity as a whole), which is not how atheists roll. Being "open minded" doesn't guard one from being deceived.

Not how we "roll"? so we're not capable of admitting to imperfections..? biggoted generalisations from someone who claims to be open minded yet presumes to actually tell us we are being decieved and manipulated by a ruling secret society without even being able to tell us how.. :shk:

The biggest ego of all is one that assumes that he and his buddies have all of the answers to all of life's questions.

You've already claimed atheism is a product of illuminati progaming. To tell a group of people you know exactly why they disbelieve something you believe in is beyond egotistical. Unlike some religions atheism does not claim to have all the answers to lifes questions. I certainly haven't.. I just don't think some god did it.

[edit on 15-3-2009 by riley]

reply to post by Question


Now that is the prime example of what I believe, I'm not going to be caught subscribing to one of these multitude of religions that claim to speak for god.

If anything, I can see many of these modern religion being the very thing god cannot stand, people trying to force beliefs on him that he never quoted. If any are to be damned, it's these people.

If God is real, he is on our hearts, not in the pockets of a church that is designed purely to preach words written by man on his behalf. If he's their, if he's listening, I know he'll be basing his decision on what's truely good, not what's good in the eyes of a few.

In conclusion, if your good he's your friend, otherwise if he expected us to 'walk in his footsteps' he'd be here to follow.