When does a group belief become a cult and why?

Originally posted by headlightone
Oh well back to living in the NOW again the mind needs more than one point to work between. The 2 points are represented by time.
In the NOW their are no 2 points to travel between therefore no time.
Mind needs Time
In the Now no Time
No Time No Mind
No Mind ,No Mind To Control
Or something like that, trouble is try spreading the message not easy .

Hey wow Ive just realized something reading your last post. Your correct when we totally live in the now (which many of us cant, including me, it takes great practise and dedication) we are free of mind.

Mind needs Time
In the Now no Time
No Time No Mind
No mind, No mind Control

I dont think you realize the relevance of what you have just wrote. If we were all able to move into the now, no one would be able to be influenced or manipulated because we would all be free of mind.

The last few days Ive slipped back into mind, the mind of yesterdays regrets and future projections. Ive lost contact with my consciousness in my now, and felt ive become open to all sorts of mind manipulations of origins unknown.

Just shows you, let your mind take you away from the now, you start to become unconscious again. Live in a false time and your mind returns.

Time = Mind = Control

Live in no time , Your Now .

No time = No mind = No mind control

Brilliant headlightone.

[edit on 14-3-2009 by Mr Green]

You guys are gonna make good Buddhists

Actually, the "empty mind" is similar to the state of nirvana (or nibbana in Pali). Nirvana means "asphyxiation". Cessation of all wish, perception, thoughts, etc.

Originally posted by DangerDeath

Actually, the "empty mind" is similar to the state of nirvana (or nibbana in Pali). Nirvana means "asphyxiation". Cessation of all wish, perception, thoughts, etc.

Not an easy state to reach. I had always wondered what Nirvana meant. Its one thing attempting to live in the now, it seems a totally different state to reach when nirvana is realized.

Have you experienced it? Is it only reached in deep meditation? Or does it become a way of being?

Originally posted by Mr Green


Not an easy state to reach. I had always wondered what Nirvana meant. Its one thing attempting to live in the now, it seems a totally different state to reach when nirvana is realized.

Have you experienced it? Is it only reached in deep meditation? Or does it become a way of being?

Frankly, I don't know.
I've once experienced a total blackout while following a simple meditation on the second hand of a clock. I blacked out very fast and was back after, maybe 5-10 minutes. But there is nothing to remember

On the other hand, applying warriors method, gives you the necessary control of yourself (practically, as I have said before - eliminate emotions, especially the basic emotion of "self pity"). This enables you to face literally everything, especially death, both as a concept and as an option. Deactivating this emotion is the same as deactivating fear.

Because emotions are projections, not being affected makes you active, which is the key feature. So, nirvana is practically here and now, without blacking out. That is an active approach in my experience, for now at least.

You are in the middle of the world (which is body, as a focus of senses) and yet you are unaffected - unconditioned.

This state is also called para-nirvana - it means that all you do is wait for body to wear out, and then you "leave". That's what Buddha said... The inertial movement has to end on its own, to fade out.



[edit on 14-3-2009 by DangerDeath]

Originally posted by headlightone
reply to post by violet

 

I am just about to purchase an HD SKY BOX for £49-00 as well Its a good price.Its brilliant viewing 4 times better than the normal digital viewing.
I am hoping that I have reached a point of personal awareness in that I can detect an invading intruder signal.
If I start having bad experiences as mentioned in an earlier post then I am taking the view its SSSS / HD Digital disturbance and I will take stock and make a plan.

It's one of those things that once you've had a taste you can't go back to the old flavour. As I said I barely watched tv before, so I'm now very aware of how commercials and other programmes have changed. I don't know if it's from having spent that vacant time on ATS instead or on other interests before this place or even the internet, that I'm noticing alot of triggers or ideas being pushed forth. For one, lots of alien/ufo themed stuff.

As for music, lyrics can have triggers or meanings, as well as the melody or certain beats, played live or recorded. With live play, they can add the visual effects of lighting and stage set and choreography of the dancers.

Live music at a concert, like radio, is a shared experience you do at the same time with others. A CD is most often something you listen to alone. An album can be recorded by the Artist with that intention in mind. I often wonder why some of the song selection has those awful songs, you wish weren't on it, until you hear it enough you start to like it, but won't play in front of others because it's embarassing!

Another idea is with Film. Movies filmed with "dizzy-cams" that may disorient the viewer with vertigo or nausea - this has never worked on me - I don't get dizzy, but others have. If anything I just find it to be annoying. I have however experienced a slight dizzyness from IMAX films, but only if I sat in the seat section in the theatre where it's affects would be optimum.

There was one movie I saw recently, the script caused extreme anxiety within me, I wanted to walk out, but didn't want to be childish. I should have. I came home from it crying and depressed and truthfully it triggered an unforeseen circumstance - because it got me to react. Admittedly it was because the content was intentional, in that it's going to upset anyone who has experienced any of the circumstances they acted out in a montage of scenes. They didn't miss a beat. I researched it's reviews and read how others thought the same of it. So it wasn't just me.

[edit on 15-3-2009 by violet]

Back to the music, another thought:

Certain Artists (lead singers usually) have a particular type of fanbase that can become very cult-like in their behaviour. The fans compete who's the #1 fan, some will sabatauge other fans, while others bond and love one another, but each has the ultimate goal of getting close to the artist and being noticed by the artist. Many of the fans will fantasize they will eventually meet their Idol and become lovers or best friends. Some go as far to begin to believe they've met this idol in a dream, past life or just have a "mystical connection". I'm not talking about extreme cases where an obsessed fan becomes dangerous, that's another topic. This is very real and an astonishing fact if you ever get into this part of the music industry to learn how deep this goes.

Most of these artists are very aware they have this control and use it to sell more records, DVD's or concert sales. "Meet and Greets" etc are established for higher paying VIP fans. Fans that haven't had this chance to meet, will be jealous (intitiated when they see others photos with them posted on the artist's official website or messageboard) and make it their life goal, even if this means travelling across the world and emptying their savings accounts. All other priorities in their life begin to get shoved down the list. They band together jamming radio stations and harassing DJ's to play their fave's songs and will spend their entire day trying to get every little detail. The fans act like Zombies, and their idol can do no wrong, their loyalty is immeasurable. You will see these types commenting on news stories, youtube etc, saying "he/she would never do this, or isn't like that", and then you'll see others commenting back accusing they're acting cultish. Essentially they're like Avon representitives working for the "leader" (idol), never really paid and always spending their own money.
Or compare it to a Bee Colony.

Interestingly, it isn't always about the good looking ones luring in such a fanbase, rather than the attractiveness, it can be the lyrics. The lyrics have meaning to them, it's the lyrics that drew them in (the vocals and melody often ranks lower). It also isn't limited to the age or gender of the fan.

[edit on 15-3-2009 by violet]

reply to post by Mr Green

The last few days Ive slipped back into mind, the mind of yesterdays regrets and future projections. Ive lost contact with my consciousness in my now, and felt ive become open to all sorts of mind manipulations of origins unknown.

You slip back into mind the moment you made mind the problem, it’s not mind that’s the problem “It’s just doing its job” it’s the programming of the mind through societies, cultures and beliefs that create attachments, attachments become obstacles and because of the programming of the mind “You think you have a problem” you make is sound as if you need to gain something in order to stay present in the “Now” safe from “manipulation” you don’t need to gain something “You need to drop something”

It seems to me that people love to anylize pages and pages of information to gain an understanding of something, something’s in life you have to experience through insight to gain true understanding. You can run information through the mind all day and the only thing you gain is attachments. Attachments to what you may ask? Words, Emotions, Feelings, beliefs, predictions…. The list goes on. Now you’re creating your own problems/obstacles due to your own programming “your own analysis” you create a future that hasn’t happened yet, you create your own illusion.

Don’t run away from your mind and don’t let your mind run away from you, the mind is a brilliant tool when you use it in the “Now” the moment the mind slips into the past or future, is the moment you become attached to something in the past or future. Drop it, let go and become present.

I hear people say time after time “It’s too hard to become present in the now, it’s too hard to become aware” when in reality the only hard part is letting go of that belief, letting go of that attachment. It’s a lot harder analyzing pages and pages of information than it is to become aware, not many people believe me because they are not ready to drop that belief.


IamNow

Edit to add a few quotes.

"People who want a cure, provided they can have it without pain, are like those who favor progress, provided they can have it without change."

"Another illusion is that external events have the power to hurt you, that other people have the power to hurt you. They don't. It's you who give this power to them"

"You've got to drop something. You've got to drop illusions. You don't have to add anything in order to be happy; you've got to drop something. Life is easy, life is delightful. It's only hard on your illusions, your ambitions, your greed, your cravings"

"Understand the obstructions you are putting in the way of love, freedom, and happiness and they will drop. Turn on the light of awareness and the darkness will disappear. Happiness is not something you acquire; love is not something you produce; love is not something you have; love is something that has you."



[edit on 15-3-2009 by IamNow]

In order not to become idealists, it should be clear that each phenomena, idea or emotion, projection, does affect us, the moment we become aware of it.

Each projection must be "toured about". We have to examine it before we abandon it. It is wrong to run away from it. The trick is to do it very fast, in a matter of seconds or less than that.

And you can do it only if you are perfectly clear about what is what. Very simple, but one must practice it at all times (now)

Dante wasn't going to hell just because he wanted to have some fun. He wanted to learn about what makes people go to hell - and stay there as residents.

Originally posted by IamNow


It seems to me that people love to anylize pages and pages of information to gain an understanding of something, something’s in life you have to experience through insight to gain true understanding.

sounds like ATS to me!

You can run information through the mind all day and the only thing you gain is attachments. Attachments to what you may ask? Words, Emotions, Feelings, beliefs, predictions…. The list goes on. Now you’re creating your own problems/obstacles due to your own programming “your own analysis” you create a future that hasn’t happened yet, you create your own illusion.

I know what you say is true. Think something, you give it form, you give it energy, it becomes an attachment. It becomes something we are not.

Don’t run away from your mind and don’t let your mind run away from you, the mind is a brilliant tool when you use it in the “Now” the moment the mind slips into the past or future, is the moment you become attached to something in the past or future. Drop it, let go and become present.

The moment you become lost in the mind of past/future is the moment you become unconscious. I recognize that moment very well, sometimes it easy to snap out of it, sometimes it takes hours/days.

I hear people say time after time “It’s too hard to become present in the now, it’s too hard to become aware” when in reality the only hard part is letting go of that belief, letting go of that attachment. It’s a lot harder analyzing pages and pages of information than it is to become aware, not many people believe me because they are not ready to drop that belief.

Its not all that hard, its just doing it sometimes feels like its the hardest thing in the world.




[edit on 15-3-2009 by Mr Green]

A few pages back in this topic we had a little run-in between a few members; I was very pleased it was sorted out in a mature manor. The situation went away as quick as it arrived, we can now use that situation to gain some insight about the power of attachments.

As with most arguments it stemmed from the beliefs of one person about the next. Their beliefs were based around a mental image of the person they were judging, their attachment to that belief made them become defensive. In this case Headlightone read a post “Words” that in his eyes were sarcastic, he had attached certain words to sarcasm thus judging somebody through words. As Mr.Green pointed out words can be misread and misunderstood, most of all emotions cannot always be sensed through words. We sometime mistake our own emotions (Emotion is the mind being reflected into the body) with the emotions of others. Sometimes we see the wrong message because of the attachment to certain words and beliefs, this created a chain reaction and within a few post more members had to step in and express their opinions and beliefs about person A or B, just to protect the mental image of the person they perceived to be right/good.

Sometimes it’s hard to admit we are wrong, sometimes it’s hard to drop the attachment between the mental images in your mind about the person you are judging. When we do drop that attachment and re-read what was once “Sarcastic” we see something different. I get around this by not pre-judging anyone by not creating a mental image or expectations of anyone. I accept people for who they are “it’s as simple as that” and in this situation that was the positive out the negative.

Well done those members involved, now you see it’s as easy as dropping ones belief about the other person. I have had experience of pre-judging people and it’s a lonely road when it gets out of hand, accept people for who they are, if you think you know who they are “You are attached to that mental image and that’s the person you will see”

It really did make me smile when the situation was ironed out.

Originally posted by violet
Back to the music, another thought:

Certain Artists (lead singers usually) have a particular type of fanbase that can become very cult-like in their behaviour. The fans compete who's the #1 fan, some will sabatauge other fans, while others bond and love one another, but each has the ultimate goal of getting close to the artist and being noticed by the artist. Many of the fans will fantasize they will eventually meet their Idol and become lovers or best friends. Some go as far to begin to believe they've met this idol in a dream, past life or just have a "mystical connection". I'm not talking about extreme cases where an obsessed fan becomes dangerous, that's another topic. This is very real and an astonishing fact if you ever get into this part of the music industry to learn how deep this goes.

[edit on 15-3-2009 by violet]

I'm involved with a certain TV show. We have the British group Take That on the show tonight. Their fan base is amazing. There's teenagers camping out in front of the venue. Definitely cult-like ;-)

The group is great, though. They're very decent lads.

Originally posted by DangerDeath

Each projection must be "toured about". We have to examine it before we abandon it. It is wrong to run away from it. The trick is to do it very fast, in a matter of seconds or less than that.

And you can do it only if you are perfectly clear about what is what. Very simple, but one must practice it at all times (now)

I think what you mean here is, you become your own silent watcher. Your right we cant run away from things but also we should not give them energy and thought. We need to silently watch without any reaction or analysis.

An example would be for me, I start to feel I need to belong to a group to progress spiritualy, I start to have what if thoughts, "What if I dont know what Im doing?" " If only I could find a spiritual guru who could teach me and guide me in their awakened ways" "The path to enlightenment would be SO much easier if I did it with another"

I should not run away from these thoughts your right, I just need to be aware they are my mind projecting "What ifs" and all I need to do is become the silent watcher of them. Hear these thoughts, realize its the chatter of the mind, silently watch them, give no reaction to them just simply watch them and allow them to pass with no analysis. By engaging in conversation with these "what if" mind thoughts I allow myself to be removed from the now.

Originally posted by Nichiren
I'm involved with a certain TV show. We have the British group Take That on the show tonight. Their fan base is amazing. There's teenagers camping out in front of the venue. Definitely cult-like ;-)

The group is great, though. They're very decent lads.

I like Take That. When they first became famous 10 years or so ago, we had very similar scenes of girl fans mobbing the group. When the group split up it was like a mass mourning took place! Your right the fans do some times act like cult members, but groups that popular seem to do that to their fans.

reply to post by Mr Green

An example would be for me, I start to feel I need to belong to a group to progress spiritually, I start to have what if thoughts, "What if I don’t know what I’m doing?" “If only I could find a spiritual guru who could teach me and guide me in their awakened ways" "The path to enlightenment would be SO much easier if I did it with another"

With that example you would first need to question why you are attracted or like the idea of a group, if thoughts arise like “What if I don’t know what I am doing” or “If I could find a spiritual guru” then there is nothing wrong with that. At least you are taking a cautious approach when looking to progress, e.g. your not jumping straight into the deep end. “What ifs” are doubts; doubts normally arise from instinct. One day it may be them “What if’s” that arise from instinct that keep some awareness in you, it may prove valuable if you ever do become deeply involved in a group or in this case “Cult”

Personally I don’t see groups as a problem, if people can work together in unity without ego stepping in the way without a leader then that’s perfectly fine. In a sense you could call the members in this thread a group, members who share the same beliefs, and who tend to follow other members into other topics. Nothing wrong with that, it’s nice to see people working together in unity giving out a positive message.

I should not run away from these thoughts your right, I just need to be aware they are my mind projecting "What ifs" and all I need to do is become the silent watcher of them

Yes that’s right, playing the silent watcher is awareness, listen to what’s going on without reaction. Instinct works better this way, it’s saved my ass a few times



[edit on 15-3-2009 by IamNow]

How the obvious escaped you is a tedious story. The abridged version of it amounts to this: You embraced fear. After that unholy act, it has been downhill ever since. Fear is the first lie, the lie that tells you that you are separated from the whole. Once it has been embraced, you are incapable of ever telling the truth under any circumstances without blowing the game.

Truth, by its nature, is the light. Fear cannot, by its nature, be in the light without dying. It becomes a simple matter of self interest. Fear has owned this planet, its people, and their systems for a long time. It does not wish to give up the property it has acquired because it is a parasitic life form that cannot live separated from your life forces.

The truth is, you are the truth. It is not external to you, as you have been led to believe. For that reason, it is ludicrous to set out on a spiritual journey in search of it. It is likewise ridiculous to punish those who do not practice it when almost nobody on this planet does. As for philosophizing over it, how can you when you wouldn't recognize it if it ran over you in the street? Meanwhile, measuring it is done in your attempt to dominate it, leading you further into the lie that it lives outside of you like an enemy that must be controlled. To exalt it is also to see it as separate. And fighting over it is so absurd as to not deserve our comment at all.

The totality of your clinically insane behavior surrounding truth has been cleverly manipulated by fear in its attempt to keep your eyes off the truth. In this manner, fear was able to continue uninterrupted and undetected in its process of eating you alive. But don't worry -- there is a cure. All you need do is awaken to the fact that you are the truth. As the light comes on, the parasite will die, leaving you joyously able to reclaim command.

If only we could embrace the light and lose all fear. I read the above today and thought how very true it was.

reply to post by IamNow

Being I was also one who was acting this way.

I had I realised it was how I was perceiving the one I'd argued with. After my last hostile post, I woke up the next morning feeling so ashamed of my behaviour and wanted to apologise personally to this person. I didn't feel victorious when I saw my post got more stars. I also knew I had just projected a very bad image of myself, which isn't productive.

Mr Green never acts this way, and I hope that I can take some pointers and learn how to be more considerate of other's feelings in the future.

Originally posted by violet

Mr Green never acts this way, and I hope that I can take some pointers and learn how to be more considerate of other's feelings in the future.

I used to act this way alot. Then over time I realized it was not the way, however I let myself down in this thread when I did exactly this to Drakiir. I too felt like I needed to apologize to him. It was not for me to point out his god was a false god, that was very wrong of me, I see that now.

His Lord Isis is his god, who am I to say Lord Isis isnt a god. Drakiir finds spiritual love in Lord Isis and I forgot that in my fight to "free" Drakiir from his cult. We are powerless to "show" others the way, its a persons choice what they believe in and its not for me to start pulling down "false gods".

reply to post by violet

Mr Green never acts this way, and I hope that I can take some pointers and learn how to be more considerate of other's feelings in the future.

Don’t separate yourself from “Others” we are all one, something that helps me when I steer a little off track.

Here is a video I think you will find helpful on the situation I was talking about

YouTube

Originally posted by IamNow

Don’t separate yourself from “Others” we are all one, something that helps me when I steer a little off track.

Here is a video I think you will find helpful on the situation I was talking about

YouTube

very good.

"Lots of people are so determined to change - they never do" That made me smile because its so true. As he says no need to change, just observe, then the pattern will change itself.

"Life is easy, its your programmming thats the problem"

The programming is of course known by another name....its known as the mind.

reply to post by Mr Green


Thanks for the post from the External Source, there is a lot of truth I see in that. Do you have the link to the external source.