Attacking religious is a waste of time

A religion is an organized approach to human spirituality which usually encompasses a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices, often with a supernatural or transcendent quality, that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power or truth.

en.wikipedia.org...

Faith is the confident belief in the truth of or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing. It is also used for a belief, characteristically without proof.

en.wikipedia.org...


As you can see from the description of faith and religion provided by wiki that the is a system that doesnt require evidence to believe. People use religion and faith as a security blanket. The idea that a beliefe in a religion has great appeal to a large number of people.

It is futile to argue against something people use to take some of the responsibility for the short comings of men. And needing no evidence to support faith/religion no amount of counter evidence will ever change a mind.

Beyond the inherent inability of a religion to be falsifiedlies the fact that some people just need something to believe in. If ones belief in a higher power or afterlife causes them to be better as a person then who are any of us to refute them.

Why does a world where everyone does whatever they want with no moral compass appeal to anyone. (Religion breeds morals). ]

I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
Albert Einstein

While this statement may be true it is not how a vast majority of society thinks about morals and ethics.

I've read and read message boards and periodicle articles and not one has ever lead to the changing of a religious mind. I find it quite disconcerting that people are so concerned with proving that there is no god that they dont stop to think if they should.

Millions and millions of people through out history have lost their lives in the name of this religion or that religion, and no side wether defenders of religion or proponents against have benifitted.

We argue constantly about these matters. Would it not be more constructive to allow people to have whatever beliefs they may and join hands religious non-religious, and agnostic in an effort to solve the real problems that humanity faces?

Richard Dawkins, the Oxford geneticist, best-selling author and campaigning atheist, is to take his battle against God into Britain's schools after setting up a foundation to counter the religious indoctrination of young people.

www.independent.co.uk...

The snippet from this article is exactly the type of wasted assets and time that i am talking about. Parents of students that have to subjected to this are going to be out raged. This will cause no less beliefe in religion, but will certainly add fule to a flame that has already been allowed to burn to long.

My beliefs are mine your beliefs are yours. It is not my place to try and eliminate your faith in anything. Rather than fighting against you id rather worl with you on something that isnt counter productive.

People will not give up their faith just because you or me says they are wrong. This never ending battle has been fought across the globe. Doing nothing more than furthering the rift between men of different beliefs.

Religious, non-religious, athiest, agnostic, gay, straight, white, black, it does not matter. We are all human and when you boil it down we all want the same things, security peace happiness and the right to persue said wants.

The time to stop fighting has come we are united in our humanity. It is time to accept one another for the free thinking beings we are.

I love all of you my brothers and sisters

No..its a split personality type dealio,we all have it..its how the brain works..attacking or should i say confronting people is the best way to let them partially open that pandoras box,and that goes for religious and non religious.. look at things from a different perspective in your life for atleast a while.In this lecture

sam harris shows how idiotic the main religious arguments sound in any other given circumstance...and also how a man with the knowledge and intellect to make a nuclear bomb can also expect his virgins when he detonates it.The brain is a weird thing but one that inflict us all,the same way yet under different circumstances...not just a religious thing imo.

I still don't see why people continue to argue religion versus atheism, it's nothing but an unending debate, and chasing eachother in infinite circles. Which is why I steer clear of the suject.

I just wander why people still even bother, it's just a waste of time.
I used to back in the day point out all the flaws in religion, ask for proof, most of the time it was to irritate and frustrate, but seriously it pisses me off when religious people believe in God but when it comes to believing in Aliens and stuff like that they ask for proof, such a double standard.

i always thought of religion as a net that the old emperors and rulers used to keep their people at ease and in order.

I mean it makes sense, create something that people will follow and live by, and then there is no worry of killing and overthrowing.

[edit on 23-2-2009 by Mondax]

Originally posted by Prixabitle Ix

(Religion breeds morals).

it really doesnt, morales are a social affair and even if you do try to use the morale code found in bronze age books the way they are used are plastic in nature, love they neighbour and do unto others changes to an eye for an eye when ever the desire arrises, treat your enemy as your friend unless they are black, gay, atheists, muslim or just follow a different brand of christianity (im not saying all christians here just generalising)

if religeon breeds morales then a first world developed christian nation woulnt have decided gassing jews was a good idea,

did they do it becasue they were christian? no they did it becasue like all morales and humanity we forget them when ever we feel like it or are told to by someone in a high enough position as the Miligram tests showed and the retesting recently gave the same conclusions

morales are plastic not rigid and are based on our current social situations and beliefs, given the right circumstances and the right person issuing orders and the only difference between you and your average soldier in germanies third reich is 60 years of hitory that gets ignored when the orders given





and if you really want a VIVID example of why religeon doesnt = morale, lets ask venomfangx what he thinks of the holocaust and 6 million jews killed in concentration camps



yes it was thier own fault and god did it to them, thanks Shawn

[edit on 23/2/09 by noobfun]

i agree attacking religious or non-religious people is a waste of time .... if people want to believe that there's something higher, then let them? what's the worst thing that could happen? they die and get let down? who cares ... forcing religious views onto anyone is dumb period ... it's kind of like this, you respect my rights, and i'll respect yours ... everyone and anyone can believe in who or what they want ... imo

[edit on 23-2-2009 by baseball101]

reply to post by Solomons


Thanks for this most excellent video, Second line being thought of at this very moment

I think that people are misunderstanding the OPs intent. . . It doesnt matter if morals come from a book or from societies prejudices. . . he/she is saying that alot of people allow religion to set their moral compass.

Its not really an arguemnt for or against but at the pointlessness of all of it. No matter how effectivley either side argues no minds are ever changed. We can fight and bicker all we want but like the OP stated were all people religious or not the fighitng is pointless.

I believe the OP was trying to get across the fact that no matter your persuasion you have no right to press your opinion upon anyone in an agressive tactless manner.

There is time for debate and time to put it aside and concentrate on more important matters such as the fact that the world is going to hell in a hand basket. It doesnt seem to matter what the situation is the finger pointing never stops.

Im going to go with the op and try not to inject my philisophical beliefs into your face in a time as trying as this. The OP is right its time to put aside these petty differences and work together to fix the bigger problems facing every person on this planet

I like proof. That's just my personality. I don't have a lot of faith in things that I don't have proof for.

It's really personal preference.

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
I like proof. That's just my personality. I don't have a lot of faith in things that I don't have proof for.

It's really personal preference.

That may be so but does that fact allow you to attack people for their beliefs. Does your need for proof justify in any way an attempt to dissolve anothers faith? Thats just the sort of reasoning that leads to these fights.

Look for your proof believe what you want but do not judge others for their beliefs or lack there of. Its not anyones place to tear down another human being over philisophical differences in opinion.

reply to post by constantwonder


Of course not, but it goes both ways. You know, the "How can you possibly not believe in God, you're so dim, you must have no soul and you're going to hell."

So perhaps attacking non-religious beliefs is a waste of time, as well.

I think so. Arguing beliefs of any kind is a waste of time when there's no clear cut answer, except that it allows people to express their opinions and, sadly, attack those who they don't agree with.

reply to post by constantwonder


If we all adhered to that belief we would still be burning witches at the stake.Confronting people about their belief systems which in your/my opinion are backed up with flawed evidence should be mandatory.What we should all do from time to time and many people forget to do is try and understand how such beliefs are formulated in the first place,to forget about them,give excuses such as *its his/her right to believe* leaves us in a bad place in the end.

Originally posted by constantwonder
I think that people are misunderstanding the OPs intent. . . It doesnt matter if morals come from a book or from societies prejudices. . .

yes yes it really does have massive implications and really does matter

if you think that all morales come only from your choice of religeous book and anyone who is whithout that faith is immorale its a dehumanising belief, it makes all others less then equal

and thinking your special and the rest arnt real people they are subhumans or animals has been the cause of genecide and slavery for hundreds of years

so yes it really does matter and what may seem like a comfortable lie now can end in thousands dead for no better reason then a misguided belief wasnt challenged

and esentially thats what ALL religeons teaches, were humble and very special and everyone else is screwed unless they join our gang.

with religeon fundamentalising again on both the islamic/christian side of the divide leaving them with thier comfortable lies unchalleneged isnt a stratergy thats going to lead anywhere good for humanity

so making them think about what it is they believe and actually pay attention to what it is the book they read just might stop the stupid fundamentalist death brigades getting to trigger happy in too large a group

i guess another reason why some people attack religion and those believe in it, is because they want them to see it their and accept it. A kind of, I told you so.

If a religious person dies and there is no god, s/he is simply dead and cant run to Bob and say "I was wrong and should of listened to you when you explained it to me".

That then does nothing for Bob, and he cant feel good about proving the person wrong.

i probably doesn't make sense but its kinda hard to explain.

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
I like proof. That's just my personality. I don't have a lot of faith in things that I don't have proof for.

It's really personal preference.

Try looking in the mirror and within. If you are looking "out there" for god, then you aren't going to find him. It's about like trying to find Bill Gates in your windows OS when you look out there.

Overall, I think each opinion is a step towards finding the truth. I somewhat accepted Christianity as a child, because society expected me to. I started to notice the hypocrisy of the church, rejected it all. Started to realize how arrogant it was to claim such didn't exist when I have such a tiny perspective of even just the known universe, and so I became agnostic. I figured chances are, there is a god, but I doubt anyone here really knows anything about him, they just think they do. And so then I started to seek the real truth to it all, and then I found god.

Debate and discussion is healthy. It can be a bit frustrating, but I never expect to win a debate at the moment the debate happens. I will win the debate over time, after the debate, when the little truths I give the person keep beating them in the head. Every time something happens, a little part of them will remember what I said. Seen people do 180 degree turns many times given enough time. Did so myself.

But if people are actually looking for truth and understanding, then these to me are all logical and understandable positions for that time of understanding. God gives you what you need, not what you want. And part of understanding something is to know both sides. I think they are wrong, but I do understand why they think what they do.

For me, the most frustrating thing is because I know - they are me a few years ago. It's like watching my own old comments come back to haunt me. Maybe I'm just reaping what I sowed back then.

Originally posted by noobfun

Originally posted by constantwonder
I think that people are misunderstanding the OPs intent. . . It doesnt matter if morals come from a book or from societies prejudices. . .

yes yes it really does have massive implications and really does matter

if you think that all morales come only from your choice of religeous book and anyone who is whithout that faith is immorale its a dehumanising belief, it makes all others less then equal

and thinking your special and the rest arnt real people they are subhumans or animals has been the cause of genecide and slavery for hundreds of years

so yes it really does matter and what may seem like a comfortable lie now can end in thousands dead for no better reason then a misguided belief wasnt challenged

and esentially thats what ALL religeons teaches, were humble and very special and everyone else is screwed unless they join our gang.

with religeon fundamentalising again on both the islamic/christian side of the divide leaving them with thier comfortable lies unchalleneged isnt a stratergy thats going to lead anywhere good for humanity

so making them think about what it is they believe and actually pay attention to what it is the book they read just might stop the stupid fundamentalist death brigades getting to trigger happy in too large a group

im in full agreement with what youve said here but the problem lies in that people are so attached to their comfort zone that the debate never gets much past your wrong this is why. . . this is where it usually turns into a flame war between the two sides of the argument.

How can a subject so sensitive ever be talked about in an appropriate way where people may actually learn something? All the bickering and name calling and fighting further alienates the two sides from one another. Common ground is a fundamental building block of change but people just seem to find any when it comes to religion. . .

any suggestions on how to appropriately argue this point either for or against?

It's ironic, the reason religion fails to achieve it's goals is the same reason why religion and religious belief are unassailable by reason.

The simple fact is that you can't change human nature.

Human nature is irrational.

Religion and it's contenders seek to change human nature to better the outlook of mankind and both fail. Human nature has not been changed and these introduced modifiers have only fuelled human discordance and conflict.

In the past I have been conceited enough to believe that any rational person will eventually succumb to the weight of reason but it is becoming apparent to me as I grow older that the more compelling any argument disproving religion becomes the more it causes the religious to close ranks even tighter than before. It is like attacking a lunatic asylum with a banana.

So I have given up on hoping that people, especially the religious, will ever be reasonable. I have discarded my bananna and turned my back on the lunatic aslyum.

Originally posted by Solomons
reply to post by constantwonder

 

If we all adhered to that belief we would still be burning witches at the stake.Confronting people about their belief systems which in your/my opinion are backed up with flawed evidence should be mandatory.What we should all do from time to time and many people forget to do is try and understand how such beliefs are formulated in the first place,to forget about them,give excuses such as *its his/her right to believe* leaves us in a bad place in the end.

Well, I agree they should be confronted. People accept way too much. But it is their right to believe whatever they want. And it is your right to believe what ever you want. Only if they take action upon others have they crossed the line of what is their right to believe, to them believing they have the right to decide what you believe. And that is also what you are talking about now.

It's not really about what people believe so much as it is what actions(fruits) they are doing. I don't care what your beliefs are, but the moment someone tries to force another to those beliefs is the moment I have a problem. And that goes for all "sides".

I think people who are "offended" need to get over themselves. People need to learn to live and let live. You have ever right to be "offended", but no right to do anything about it. If you don't like it, don't listen. Walk away, change the channel, pick another thread or whatever.

If you do not allow others their freedom, you can not and will not have your own freedom. So often people think they are free when they impose something on another person. But they aren't, which they will quickly realize should they ever change their mind on the topic. And by doing so, all you really are doing is saying - 1 person has the right to determine another person's beliefs. And I strongly disagree.

The moment you decide that things should be mandatory, and that people should be allowed to believe what they want, is the moment you are just like them. Just another hypocrite.

Originally posted by constantwonder

any suggestions on how to appropriately argue this point either for or against?

if i had te answer to that question i could write a book and make a fortune from it

wing it, try not to fall into blame games, and stick with the evidence ... and hope some ofit get through and sarts to tick away inside thier head

I really would not use word Attacking, lol, lil' too harsh...

Mocking, yes, definitely.

Why? Because they give Atheism funny little names ("plotted" behind the closed doors of the churches in order to "strike us down", lol, conspiracy anyone?) like Anti-Religion.

Because they create entire theories why are some suffering from religion deficiency and what's the cure for this mental illness...

They coin phrases like "There is no atheists in foxholes", "This is a Cristian nation and if you do not like it: LEAVE" and "Atheism is just another religion".

Because they created this entire shameful and well organized industry/media which fabricates lies, pamphlets, t-shirts, radio and TV programs and what not days in and out in order to suppress free thinking.

Mocking, yes, definitely. It's fun, actually